Technomancer Combat, Help with Complex Forms Options

[MindandPen]

I think I have read the rules correctly, but I'm not sure, so I need some help.

As I understand it, Complex Forms are to Technomancers what Spells are to Mages.

Except...

From what I've read, if a TM pays the Karma and money, he can learn a Complex Form for any spell up to 2x their Resonance, and then use it without any Fading. So, if they have a resonance of 6, they could learn Black Hammer at 12, and use it and attack anytime without any Fading. If they had only learned it to 6, they could use it at 6 with no Fading, but if they wanted to boost it to 12, they would have to use Threading, which would result in Fading. Fianlly, they can use Threading to whistle up a Complex Form from scratch, and resist Fading.

I have this right?

-M&P

[Andinel]

The rating of a Complex Form is limited to your Resonance, unless you thread it or use Assist Operation. You only suffer Fading when threading a CF or compiling/registering sprites.

[Xahn Borealis]

Also, with Unwired, you can use threading to copy any program and option from any expansion, including smartlink, simrig, tacnets and sensor software. Fading works exactly the same though.

[Sengir]

The mechanics are actually quite simple, you just need to forget the magic rules for a second (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

- Learning complex forms or buying programs means you have that program/form, at the rating you acquired it. The max rating for programs is 6 (normally), the max "base" (without threading and sprite help) rating for a CF is the character's Resonance
- Threading means you roll Software + Resonance, the hits are added to the CF rating if you already have it, otherwise the number of hits is the rating.
- Threading itself causes fading, after threading the CF and hopefully soaking the fading damage you may use the CF with impunity


And now you can turn your magic knowledge back on:

- You my choose not to use all hits scored on the threading test
- The maximum rating for a threaded CF is Resonance x 2
- If the new rating is higher than your Resonance, threading causes P damage

[Sharkman]

Now after you have that threaded complex form...what can you add next to that dice pool to get it up higher?

[LurkerOutThere]

Errr how much higher do you need it? There's the things that everyone else can do, skill specializations, cyberware, and qualities. There's also sprite assistance in some cases.

[MindandPen]

Thank you everyone.

-M&P

[Orcus Blackweath...]

Don't forget that when you have threaded your complex form, it must be sustained, that is where the similarity to magic comes in. For each threaded CF, you must lose 2 dice from all actions until you drop the thread. If you submerge (basically like initiating) you can get echoes, and one of these (swap pg 147 of unwired) will allow you to reduce this penalty if taken twice it eliminates it. Also, you can use a sprite like you would a spirit to sustain the CF for a number of rounds equal to Sprite Rating * # services.

[Sengir]

Don't forget that when you have threaded your complex form, it must be sustained, that is where the similarity to magic comes in. For each threaded CF, you must lose 2 dice from all actions until you drop the thread.

All actions which do not directly use the threaded form (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

A threaded exploit CF can be used without penalties, however if you keep up a threaded Armor CF at the same time it costs you two dice.

[Lansdren]

Quick sense check question

Techno threads up Stealth by five
Then threads up exploit by five (to counter the sustaining penalty from the stealth thread)

Does that mean both threaded CF's are running at +3 of normal IE does threading a second CF put the negative on the stealth CF.


To me it seems that it would

[Sengir]

If you use two complex forms at the same time (the example from the FAQ is smartlink and a Biowire'd Firearms skillsoft) you don't suffer a penalty for either of those...


For the Stealth + Exploit example that means:
- If you are just using one of the two, for example when probing a target or hiding inside a node, you get the -2 penalty meaning the relevant CF effectively operates at R3 instead of R5.
- If you are using both at the same time, like when hacking on the fly, both CFs are in use and hence you don't get a penalty.


Since that is somewhat confusing I changed my example in the posting above to "Armor" instead of "Stealth" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Lansdren]

But stealth is not activly used is it. Once running its a background issue.

My understanding is that when they mean the sustaining penalty is not counted for the threaded CF I took it to mean in a action (simple or otherwise) You dont exactly use Stealth directly.

[Sengir]

You dont exactly use Stealth directly.

But its presence still gets factored into rolls, just like the presence of a smartlink CF.

[Lansdren]

In my mind the whole sustaining modifier is akin to concentrating on something.

You thread up a stealth CF to a higher level and you have to concentrate on it to do it. Next you use the Expolit (not threaded) CF and because your concentrating on keeping your stealth threaded you get a minus 2 to your roll.

Now say to compensate you thread the Exploit to a higher level too. When using the exploit you have your attention on it directly so no modifier for threading exploit itself but your still having to keep some concentration on the Stealth thats still there so you still have a minus 2.

But as you now have two threading negatives this would mean you not paying as much attention to the stealth as before hence it now having a minus 2



Otherwise your just saying I can thread two CF's and as long as one of them is Stealth I only have to worry about one modifier which to me sounds broken and doesnt track

[Sengir]

You thread up a stealth CF to a higher level and you have to concentrate on it to do it. Next you use the Expolit (not threaded) CF and because your concentrating on keeping your stealth threaded you get a minus 2 to your roll.

...and now try that logic with the example from the FAQ: You thread a Firearms skillsoft and have to concentrate to do it. Next you thread a smartlink CF and again have to concentrate on that, as well as the skillsoft. The net resulting modifier is...zero, because you actively use both CFs at the same time.

Otherwise your just saying I can thread two CF's and as long as one of them is Stealth

...and you are using it actively. When you are just probing a target you don't use Stealth, so maintaining a Stealth CF gives a -2 modifier.

[Lansdren]

...and now try that logic with the example from the FAQ: You thread a Firearms skillsoft and have to concentrate to do it. Next you thread a smartlink CF and again have to concentrate on that, as well as the skillsoft. The net resulting modifier is...zero, because you actively use both CFs at the same time.



...and you are using it actively. When you are just probing a target you don't use Stealth, so maintaining a Stealth CF gives a -2 modifier.

The actively which you so kindly made bold is the point. Explain where Stealth is actively used as a program not just a background program/CF

In the FAQ quote it makes sense because both are being used the pistols skill for the skill the smartlink for handling the data and displaying it in the Techno's minds eye.

You example doesnt follow the same reasoning. Stealth once running/threaded is a passive program/CF you dont actively use it or actively roll it.


Or following your logic does that mean in a cyber combat situation threading Attack, Shield, Armour all at the same time would not give any penalties because your actively using all three? Even though the only CF you are actively using in combat (IE using a action to use) is the attack CF

[TommyTwoToes]

The actively which you so kindly made bold is the point. Explain where Stealth is actively used as a program not just a background program/CF

In the FAQ quote it makes sense because both are being used the pistols skill for the skill the smartlink for handling the data and displaying it in the Techno's minds eye.

You example doesnt follow the same reasoning. Stealth once running/threaded is a passive program/CF you dont actively use it or actively roll it.


Or following your logic does that mean in a cyber combat situation threading Attack, Shield, Armour all at the same time would not give any penalties because your actively using all three? Even though the only CF you are actively using in combat (IE using a action to use) is the attack CF

I always took the suspension of the sustaining modifier to be used only when making a die roll involving the threaded for or sustained spell. IE Threading steal always gives you the -2 penalty because stealth factored into your die rolls, it instead establishes a target for your oppoenent. Threading exploit + stealth gives you a -2 while using exploit and a -4 on all other die rolls.

[Lansdren]

I always took the suspension of the sustaining modifier to be used only when making a die roll involving the threaded for or sustained spell. IE Threading steal always gives you the -2 penalty because stealth factored into your die rolls, it instead establishes a target for your oppoenent. Threading exploit + stealth gives you a -2 while using exploit and a -4 on all other die rolls.

This is much my understaning as well.

When you use it Actively (which to me is defined by something that would use a action Free, Simple or Complex) then you can ignore its modifier but the other ones still count. Sengir appears to be claiming that as you use Stealth all the time (its running in the background as far as i'm concerned) you can ignore its modifier. Now I could be misreading his position and if I am I am happy to be corrected.

[TommyTwoToes]

This is much my understaning as well.

When you use it Actively (which to me is defined by something that would use a action Free, Simple or Complex) then you can ignore its modifier but the other ones still count. Sengir appears to be claiming that as you use Stealth all the time (its running in the background as far as i'm concerned) you can ignore its modifier. Now I could be misreading his position and if I am I am happy to be corrected.

I would use as a counter example: If we consider that sustaining Threading is similar to sustaining a spell (which I beleive was stated somewhere earlier in the posts) and we assume that while an effect is being used there is no sustaining penalty, that would mean that a Magician could do the following:
Sustain physical invisibility on the entire party, sustain Mindlink (as long as everyone is talking), sustain increase body (since the party is wearing armor, body is being actively used), sustain chaotic world on the enemy, and casting stunbolts with no sustaining penalties because all the other spells are being actively used.

This seems game breaking to me and against the intent of the rule. Again, I use spells as an example since the mechinic is similar/identical and ruling in one direction on one would influence use of the other.

[Yerameyahu]

Right: even if that's how it's supposed to work, it shouldn't. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Sengir]

the smartlink for handling the data and displaying it in the Techno's minds eye.

IF you want a fluff explaination, the TM's mind constantly adapts to the ever changing nature of the matrix and enemy detection programs, hence it is actively used *waves hand*

And from an OOC view both are simply things assumed to be there which influence certain rolls. Again, same thing.

Or following your logic does that mean in a cyber combat situation threading Attack, Shield, Armour all at the same time would not give any penalties because your actively using all three?

Yep, exactly. Because that sounds far better than having Armor, Shield, Stealth, EC( C)M, Reality Filter etc. give you a stright -2 each just because they are not directly used to knock the enemy cold. Yes, that means when in doubt the GM has to do some common sense judgement over what programs really count as active - that is what seperates RPGs from court cases (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Lansdren]

IF you want a fluff explaination, the TM's mind constantly adapts to the ever changing nature of the matrix and enemy detection programs, hence it is actively used *waves hand*

And from an OOC view both are simply things assumed to be there which influence certain rolls. Again, same thing.


Yep, exactly. Because that sounds far better than having Armor, Shield, Stealth, EC©M, Reality Filter etc. give you a stright -2 each just because they are not directly used to knock the enemy cold. Yes, that means when in doubt the GM has to do some common sense judgement over what programs really count as active - that is what seperates RPGs from court cases (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I really don't think the intention of the threading rules was to give TM's the ability to up their CFs at almost no cost with no negatives. I fully dispute your interpretation and I'm concerned that this kind of way of thinking is the reason that so many people think that TM's are way more powerful then they are.

[sabs]

Now if you're saying that a technomancer can only have 1 CF running at a time without penalties. Then technomancers do infact suck (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) and I can live with that.

Hackers can have response - 1 programs loaded in memory at any given time. If they're willing to take a -1 penalty they can have (response*2)-1

So a Hacker can have Edit, Browse, Analyze, Exploit, Armor, Decrypt, Stealth, Biofeedback, Reality Filter, attack, medic all running on his commlink for only a -1 to response.

So Assuming a response 6 commlink, that shoots it down to response 5, so his programs run at 5 (unless of course all his programs have that fun Optimized thing)

Really a hacker with rating 3 optimized mod on all his programs, could run 23 programs all at rating 6?
Is that accurate?

[Sengir]

I really don't think the intention of the threading rules was to give TM's the ability to up their CFs at almost no cost with no negatives.

How exactly did you get from "no dice penalty for threading stealth while hacking on the fly" to "the ability to up their CFs at almost no cost with no negatives"?

[Dakka Dakka]

I would use as a counter example: If we consider that sustaining Threading is similar to sustaining a spell (which I beleive was stated somewhere earlier in the posts) and we assume that while an effect is being used there is no sustaining penalty, that would mean that a Magician could do the following:
Sustain physical invisibility on the entire party, sustain Mindlink (as long as everyone is talking), sustain increase body (since the party is wearing armor, body is being actively used), sustain chaotic world on the enemy, and casting stunbolts with no sustaining penalties because all the other spells are being actively used.

This seems game breaking to me and against the intent of the rule. Again, I use spells as an example since the mechinic is similar/identical and ruling in one direction on one would influence use of the other.

Similar yes, but not identical. Magicians do not get a free pass on the spell they are actively using. As long as the spells are sustained by them, there is a cumulative penalty, whether they actively use it (Control Thoughts) or have them in the background (Invisibility). Magicians get Foci however.