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> The Navijo, What about them?
Dax
post Feb 24 2004, 03:14 AM
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A friend of mine recently asked me a question about the Navijo Tribe. As they are the largest tribe in the US at the moment, why aren't they really mentioned in any of the NAN related material. So anyone know what happened to them by 2063?
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Siege
post Feb 24 2004, 03:29 AM
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Navajo

-Siege
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Ancient History
post Feb 24 2004, 03:44 AM
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There's about 3,817,200 in the Sioux Nation, and roughly 2,254,800 in what was the Algonkian-Manitoo Council.

Assuming there's a few more spread out among various other nations, that means the Navajo tribe is about 6-7 million strong, mainly split between these two (or three, depending on how many Manitou elves were Navajo) nations.
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252
post Feb 24 2004, 04:12 AM
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Guys, thanks for all the data facts. I mean this stuff always helps for my game. I just want to say THANKS.

For all of the other bums who use you guys, and don't really do much else.
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Pistons
post Feb 24 2004, 02:14 PM
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Just so you know, you can find that information in Shadows of North America.
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Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_*
post Feb 25 2004, 01:28 AM
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What information? There's one reference to them (and the Apaches; the other group of non-Pueblo natives living in NM/AZ) in SoNA... in the Sioux chapter (p.125, in parens with the Apaches, Ojibwa and Mohawk) There is something about them being in other NAN nations, yet incredulously they are mentioned no where else in a 200+ page book.

So for all intents and purposes, it seems the Diné nation--the largest indigenous group in the U.S.--is not only virtually forgotten ('cause apparently all the people who stayed behind in PCC and Ute uh... "forgot." Yeah... That's the ticket.) but somehow the only remnant worth mentioning was that which moved from the American Southwest (that big chunk of AZ and NM and southern UT and CO controlled by Ute), where they've been for centuries, to the Great Plains and Canada.

Wow.

As much as one is usually sufficient, that needs to be repeated.

Wow.

And I thought a country based mostly in what is NM being an economic power was out there...
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Dax
post Feb 25 2004, 02:37 AM
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QUOTE
Just so you know, you can find that information in Shadows of North America.


Seriously? I scanned the area pretty throughly and I didn't see any real mention about them. I;ll have to look again
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Ancient History
post Feb 25 2004, 05:27 AM
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On a note, comparison from NAN1&2 to SoNA reveals populations have dropped significantly...so assuming the tribal percentages are the same (although I doubt it), reduce the total number of Navaho left to a little over 1.1 million with change.
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Pistons
post Feb 25 2004, 06:07 PM
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Crimsondude 2.0 -- While I can understand your incredulity, you're verging on flaming. Not cool.

What I'd been referring to was general info, and not necessarily the population numbers that AH quoted. Thing is, I thought they were mentioned, because the Navajo & Apache situation was certainly a fairly important conversation while we were still writing the book. (I still have the emails to prove it, too.) However, I think it all somehow got left to the wayside while rewriting our drafts. We wanted to revise the Findley/Danchekker info -- which is definitely in the realm of crack-smoking, and not the good sort -- and make sure that, where possible, tribes found their way closer to where they should be.

(After all, there's Comanche and Witchita in Ute territory, for example, which is completely whacky since they're originally from the Texas and Oklahoma area. Even with the UCAS/CAS/NAN split, those tribes might have been more comfortable in Pueblo or Sioux territory instead. There's also the Haudenosaunee's move, absolutely no mention of the Delaware, and other tribes. Not knowing other factors, like politics, might've made a difference. But this is speculative history, at best, and there's only so much monkeying you can do with canon before it starts unraveling.)

Personally, in the absence of the information in SoNA, I'd use whatever feels more comfortable: the NAN books' information, or something more realistic based upon what is in SoNA but otherwise created out of what you know or research.
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Tzeentch
post Feb 25 2004, 06:41 PM
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QUOTE
Crimsondude 2.0 -- While I can understand your incredulity, you're verging on flaming. Not cool.

-- He's not wrong though, just blaming the wrong people. If Crimsondude should blame anyone it's the original Shadowrun writers who created such a cracked-out alternate history ;)
QUOTE
Not knowing other factors, like politics, might've made a difference. But this is speculative history, at best, and there's only so much monkeying you can do with canon before it starts unraveling.)

-- Shadowrun history is not probably not a good example of speculative history because it was patently absurd even back in the day.
QUOTE
Personally, in the absence of the information in SoNA, I'd use whatever feels more comfortable: the NAN books' information, or something more realistic based upon what is in SoNA but otherwise created out of what you know or research.

-- For all its faults, I think everyone should agree (if they don't agree then they have zero clue about the discussions and arguments during the creation of that book) that the writers involved with SoNA gave it their damdest to make a chocolate cake out of dog bones and gristle -- and succeeded in large part. You just have to accept that the starting point of Shadowrun history diverged from our own a LONG TIME before the Shadowrun 1980s and make a conscious effort not to look at actual Native American/First People census data in the US and Canada.
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Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_*
post Feb 25 2004, 08:32 PM
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Flaming?

There's only one reference to the Diné people in SoNA (in parentheses).
The Navajo Nation today comprises a good chunk of what is "Ute" in SR.
The Navajos are not mentioned in the Ute chapter (although I seem to recall DE mentioned them when he was writing it).

There's only one reference to the Apaches in SoNA.
There's nothing in the PCC chapter about the Apache tribes.

The Navajo Nation is the largest indigenous nation in the U.S. to my knowledge.
The Navajo Nation is spread across the four "Four Corners" states, especially in Arizona.

New Mexico is a poor, underdeveloped, statistically awful state. It currently sits at the bottom (i.e., either last or in the bottom 3-4) of virtually every ranking of the states, and sits at or near the top of every "bad" ranking of the states (ignoring D.C., of course).

What in the above, which is essentially what I wrote previously, is wrong or in any way provocative? More to the point, where does it "verge" on "flaming?"

The "Wow."? Please don't tell me it's the "Wow."

I'll get to the substance of your responses later.
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Ancient History
post Feb 25 2004, 09:07 PM
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Dude, calm down. They're agreeing with you that's it's fairly f'ed up.
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Pistons
post Feb 26 2004, 06:21 AM
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Exactly. It's the manner in which the arguments are being presented, and where the blame's being laid, that's verging on flaming. It's a combative stance, which isn't really warranted. Yes, the info should've been in there. I wish a lot of other info could've been in there. I wish the original material was less screwy. It's not, however, and there's only so much apologizing that any of us can do before it gets not only ridiculous, but demeaning.

The best we can give you, however, is what'd been decided during the making of the book--the information which should've gone in there, but somehow didn't show. Barring that, you could email Rob to ask about it, and he can give you the goods.
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Tzeentch
post Feb 27 2004, 08:21 PM
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QUOTE
Flaming?

-- I don't see it as flaming if that's any consolation. Of course, I didn't write those sections of the book so what do I care? :)

QUOTE
There's only one reference to the Diné people in SoNA (in parentheses).
The Navajo Nation today comprises a good chunk of what is "Ute" in SR.
The Navajos are not mentioned in the Ute chapter (although I seem to recall DE mentioned them when he was writing it).

-- Ok, and? You can accept the NAN existing at all but whacky ass population distributions and lack of references to existing tribes is a big issue in your games?
-- I can sympathise, really! But you have to accept that Shadowrun never was, and never will be, based on our timeline and reality except in a largely cosmetic manner. This is a world where soldiers will pass out in a minute from carrying a few kilograms and you can be electrocuted over fiber optic lines.
QUOTE
What in the above, which is essentially what I wrote previously, is wrong or in any way provocative? More to the point, where does it "verge" on "flaming?"

-- I would hazard a guess that Pistons though : "yet incredulously they are mentioned no where else in a 200+ page book." was a slam on the authors (with a possible implication of either lazy research of active malice). I'll remind you that the authors were boxed in by previous canon on these issues and there was an unwillingness to "spring" new tribes and have massive population movements if it wasn't necessary -- which is very sensible when we already had enough "big events" in SoNA like Tir Tairngire and the Border War that happen completely without player involvement and are retroactive.
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