The Navijo, What about them? Options

[Dax]

A friend of mine recently asked me a question about the Navijo Tribe. As they are the largest tribe in the US at the moment, why aren't they really mentioned in any of the NAN related material. So anyone know what happened to them by 2063?

[Siege]

Navajo

-Siege

[Ancient History]

There's about 3,817,200 in the Sioux Nation, and roughly 2,254,800 in what was the Algonkian-Manitoo Council.

Assuming there's a few more spread out among various other nations, that means the Navajo tribe is about 6-7 million strong, mainly split between these two (or three, depending on how many Manitou elves were Navajo) nations.

[252]

Guys, thanks for all the data facts. I mean this stuff always helps for my game. I just want to say THANKS.

For all of the other bums who use you guys, and don't really do much else.

[Pistons]

Just so you know, you can find that information in Shadows of North America.

[Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_*]

What information? There's one reference to them (and the Apaches; the other group of non-Pueblo natives living in NM/AZ) in SoNA... in the Sioux chapter (p.125, in parens with the Apaches, Ojibwa and Mohawk) There is something about them being in other NAN nations, yet incredulously they are mentioned no where else in a 200+ page book.

So for all intents and purposes, it seems the Diné nation--the largest indigenous group in the U.S.--is not only virtually forgotten ('cause apparently all the people who stayed behind in PCC and Ute uh... "forgot." Yeah... That's the ticket.) but somehow the only remnant worth mentioning was that which moved from the American Southwest (that big chunk of AZ and NM and southern UT and CO controlled by Ute), where they've been for centuries, to the Great Plains and Canada.

Wow.

As much as one is usually sufficient, that needs to be repeated.

Wow.

And I thought a country based mostly in what is NM being an economic power was out there...

[Dax]

[Ancient History]

On a note, comparison from NAN1&2 to SoNA reveals populations have dropped significantly...so assuming the tribal percentages are the same (although I doubt it), reduce the total number of Navaho left to a little over 1.1 million with change.

[Pistons]

Crimsondude 2.0 -- While I can understand your incredulity, you're verging on flaming. Not cool.

What I'd been referring to was general info, and not necessarily the population numbers that AH quoted. Thing is, I thought they were mentioned, because the Navajo & Apache situation was certainly a fairly important conversation while we were still writing the book. (I still have the emails to prove it, too.) However, I think it all somehow got left to the wayside while rewriting our drafts. We wanted to revise the Findley/Danchekker info -- which is definitely in the realm of crack-smoking, and not the good sort -- and make sure that, where possible, tribes found their way closer to where they should be.

(After all, there's Comanche and Witchita in Ute territory, for example, which is completely whacky since they're originally from the Texas and Oklahoma area. Even with the UCAS/CAS/NAN split, those tribes might have been more comfortable in Pueblo or Sioux territory instead. There's also the Haudenosaunee's move, absolutely no mention of the Delaware, and other tribes. Not knowing other factors, like politics, might've made a difference. But this is speculative history, at best, and there's only so much monkeying you can do with canon before it starts unraveling.)

Personally, in the absence of the information in SoNA, I'd use whatever feels more comfortable: the NAN books' information, or something more realistic based upon what is in SoNA but otherwise created out of what you know or research.

[Tzeentch]

[Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_*]

Flaming?

There's only one reference to the Diné people in SoNA (in parentheses).
The Navajo Nation today comprises a good chunk of what is "Ute" in SR.
The Navajos are not mentioned in the Ute chapter (although I seem to recall DE mentioned them when he was writing it).

There's only one reference to the Apaches in SoNA.
There's nothing in the PCC chapter about the Apache tribes.

The Navajo Nation is the largest indigenous nation in the U.S. to my knowledge.
The Navajo Nation is spread across the four "Four Corners" states, especially in Arizona.

New Mexico is a poor, underdeveloped, statistically awful state. It currently sits at the bottom (i.e., either last or in the bottom 3-4) of virtually every ranking of the states, and sits at or near the top of every "bad" ranking of the states (ignoring D.C., of course).

What in the above, which is essentially what I wrote previously, is wrong or in any way provocative? More to the point, where does it "verge" on "flaming?"

The "Wow."? Please don't tell me it's the "Wow."

I'll get to the substance of your responses later.

[Ancient History]

Dude, calm down. They're agreeing with you that's it's fairly f'ed up.

[Pistons]

Exactly. It's the manner in which the arguments are being presented, and where the blame's being laid, that's verging on flaming. It's a combative stance, which isn't really warranted. Yes, the info should've been in there. I wish a lot of other info could've been in there. I wish the original material was less screwy. It's not, however, and there's only so much apologizing that any of us can do before it gets not only ridiculous, but demeaning.

The best we can give you, however, is what'd been decided during the making of the book--the information which should've gone in there, but somehow didn't show. Barring that, you could email Rob to ask about it, and he can give you the goods.

[Tzeentch]