Personal TacNet Options

[Yerameyahu]

The point is that TacNet is supposed to be run by actual members of the net: drones and people. I think you're right: smartguns are *smart*, which is why you already get a +2, can fire remotely, etc.

In fact, your argument is perfect: if smartguns *could* join TacNets, then everyone would have done it already, and every TacNet would have literally double the 'members'.

[sabs]

See, my argument would be that in order to gain the tacnet bonuses for shooting/aiming/etc you need a smart gun.

That or the opposite. The Smart gun is already giving you the bonuses of a rating 2 tacnet, without any of the hard work.

I mean really, there's issues with the tacnet rules if a smart gun can give you a +2 bonus by itself, but a beefed out commlink running a specialized military agent can't even give you a +1 by itself.

[Yerameyahu]

Well, TacNets benefit more than 'just' directly shooting people, so I don't mind that. IDing targets, situational awareness, etc. etc. work just fine without a smartgun. It also feels like diminishing returns, which is also fine. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[IKerensky]

Okay my GM and I have been butting head for most of the day now

You lose, he is right. How come people manage to head butt GM and still survive ?

[sabs]

You lose, he is right. How come people manage to head butt GM and still survive ?

Because GM's need players?
And sometimes said players are their friends.

[Traul]

What I did was install a cyberarm gun slide, and have a firearm with an internal smart-link. That's two peripheral nodes right, not enough to run a pilot or an agent really, so what I then did was take the two and make them into a clustered node (Unwired Pg 55.)

You do not get a standard node when clustering peripheral nodes, you get a shitty (check the rules: every stat is worse than if running the nodes separately) peripheral node that runs as a unified whole and can share some resource.

If it was not the case, then the world would collapse, or at least the Matrix. Peripheral nodes are everywhere. If what you proposed was possible, then there would be no need for commlinks. Why use a commlink if I can cluster my underpants with my socks to do the same job?

[Heath Robinson]

You do not get a standard node when clustering peripheral nodes, you get a shitty (check the rules: every stat is worse than if running the nodes separately) peripheral node that runs as a unified whole and can share some resource.

So what the hell happens when I cluster a toaster and a commlink?

[Doc Chase]

So what the hell happens when I cluster a toaster and a commlink?

Burnt toast whenever a telemarketer calls.

[Yerameyahu]

Clustering doesn't make *every* stat worse. It increases the Persona limit (from 1) and Processor Limit, although clustering only 2 isn't much good. In any case, it never makes something you can run Pilot on.

[Traul]

You can improve some stats compared to a single node, but you can never get anything higher than the sum of all nodes running separately. The only use of a cluster is for one of the nodes to borrow some processing power from his neighbours to run more programs or personas for itself. If all the nodes are busy with their own task, then they are better off alone than clustered.

[Yerameyahu]

Right, it's only for very specific changes. However, it may well be that it's what you need.

[Udoshi]

The point is that TacNet is supposed to be run by actual members of the net: drones and people. I think you're right: smartguns are *smart*, which is why you already get a +2, can fire remotely, etc.

In fact, your argument is perfect: if smartguns *could* join TacNets, then everyone would have done it already, and every TacNet would have literally double the 'members'.

Not quite. You're confusing Smartguns with Smartlinks. The two are related, and necessary to work together, but a smartlink counts as a sensor channel.
Your arguement about smartguns counting as personal sensor packs is pretty bullshit. Its fairly easy to have any device with an upgraded wireless adapter(much less a smartgun), networked from half a mile away. Suddenly, there's no way it counts as being as a personal scanner. Ditto teammates, ditto drones. Unless you're going to suddenly argue that the tacnet bonus magically stops working in close quarters combat, just because your teammates are next to you. Does that sound stupid? That's cause it is.

Besides. Anyone Drone Upgrading their smartguns is probably going to use the droneguns newfound Sensor Capacity to stick ultrasound and/or ultrawideband radar on it. Suddenly, you have a very compelling reason to link the smartgun to the tacnet - it doesn't highlight what's in front of the gun. It gives you tactical and cyberwarescanner information on anything in a 50 meter radius.

And you're certainly right - people COULD hook their smartgun into the tacnet too, as well as their smartlink - its just a terrible idea, because you, essentially, just burn up an extra subscription. If you're on a tacnet, and have a smartgun, you're already getting the bonus from the gun(+2) and the tacsoft(1-4). Tying the smartgun in as a full member(instead of connected to just your smartlink) eats up a subscription, and.... well. When you fire it, you still roll the regular dice pool, plus the gun,
My arguement is slightly different: Since everyone can join smartguns into the tacnet, they don't, because having so many members on the tacnet would cause massive lag(unwired: subscriptions above the limit count as running programs), and a smartgun can't qualify for a tacnet beyond rating 1 by itself anyway. Where it IS useful is: adding more members on a low-rating tacnet, using it for indirect fire(a smartgun, by itself, is terrible for indirect fire, because it doesn't have the Signal to reach a far-away artillery battery - it needs help to actually do that,), or if, say, you want to make a cheap turret, by putting a smartgun on a motorized tripod.(its not actually a drone, and can't fire by itself - thats a smart firing platform, but you can command it to look at certain areas).


I'm not certain where you're getting the impression that tacnet Members have to be people or drones. They don't. Drones and people just give easy access to sensor channels. You're forgetting that a tacnet is software, and you can run it on anything you can load it onto. The main benefit of a tacnet is to take a bunch of information from many different sources, and tie it into a network that makes sense out of it it. There's absolutely no reason you have to run it on a Person or a Drone. Cameras, bio-drones, regular drones are all valid options. For a person on the tacnet, the tacsoft is is running on their commlink, anyway, and what makes a commlink different from any other Device? Very little.

[Yerameyahu]

I'm sorry, but I'm talking about a smartGUN, *held in your hand*. I'm certainly not confusing anything. The smartGUN has sensors (camera, etc.), and it naturally would be the same as a worn camera/other sensor. Obviously, I'm not talking about a smartgun miles away, sitting around by itself; why would anyone talk about that?

*I'm* not the one suggesting that smartguns be part of a tacnet; I'm explaining why it makes no sense to do so.

In any case, the whole thread is about getting extra tacnet members, so I'm not sure why you're talking about over-subscribing. We're talking about making tacnets when you don't really have enough people to have one.

I'm also not sure why you're talking about drone-guns; drone-guns could obviously be tacnet members, because they're drones. And if sensors are what the user wants, it's lots easier to get them other ways than drone-gun modification.

Obviously, you can run tacsofts anywhere; obviously, people are running it on their commlinks, and the point is not the device. The point is that it's stupid to run it on some things, because tacnet members should be actors: people and drones. *Maybe* certain dedicated sensor units, too, in specific situations. I'm not saying there's a rule stating this; it's simply what makes sense. On the other hand, I haven't seen anything implying that this is not the case.

[Udoshi]

I'm sorry, but I'm talking about a smartGUN, *held in your hand*. I'm certainly not confusing anything. The smartGUN has sensors (camera, etc.), and it naturally would be the same as a worn camera/other sensor. Obviously, I'm not talking about a smartgun miles away, sitting around by itself; why would anyone talk about that?

*I'm* not the one suggesting that smartguns be part of a tacnet; I'm explaining why it makes no sense to do so.

In any case, the whole thread is about getting extra tacnet members, so I'm not sure why you're talking about over-subscribing. We're talking about making tacnets when you don't really have enough people to have one.

I'm also not sure why you're talking about drone-guns; drone-guns could obviously be tacnet members, because they're drones. And if sensors are what the user wants, it's lots easier to get them other ways than drone-gun modification.

Obviously, you can run tacsofts anywhere; obviously, people are running it on their commlinks, and the point is not the device. The point is that it's stupid to run it on some things, because tacnet members should be actors: people and drones. *Maybe* certain dedicated sensor units, too, in specific situations. I'm not saying there's a rule stating this; it's simply what makes sense. On the other hand, I haven't seen anything implying that this is not the case.

Because a Person on a tacnet(1) and their Alpha(2), their sidearm(3) takes 3 subscriptions to the tacnet. Per member. Your comment about 'tacnets magically having twice their numbers' is woefully uninformed, because it doesn't take Subscriptions, tacnet rating, sensor channels available to the gun, or how many weapons each member is carrying into account, at all.
The very specific situation that its useful in, is a Tacnet 1: because anything with two sensor channels to rub together can be hooked in as a member. Camera/microphone combo, any camera with 1 vision enhancement - its very flexibile. Smartguns just happen to have 2 channels, stock out the door.

Yerameyahu, you're basically arguing that since you're holding a smartgun in your hand, it clearly can't count as a member, because its in arms reach. You're of the opinion that it *should* count as a personal scanner package for those reasons, despite any sensor channels it may have, or that its setup with the tacnet.
Your same logic can be applied in the following situation: You and your buddy are next to each other, about to breach a door. Your buddy is in arm's reach, connected to the tacnet - But Clearly, he doesn't count as a member of the tacnet, because he's in arms reach, and should totally count as a personal scanner package, because he's right by you.
My point was, proximity doesn't matter for tacnet members. Range is not a requirement for joining the tacnet.

[Yerameyahu]

I feel like you're deliberately misunderstanding. My point was that if *one* person can make a tacnet of themself, their gun, and their other gun, that's wrong. It makes no sense and should not be allowed.

No, I didn't say range is the point, at all. The point is that your buddy is an actor, and your gun is a *gun*.

[IKerensky]

So what the hell happens when I cluster a toaster and a commlink?

A Stargate ?

[StConstantine]

No, I didn't say range is the point, at all. The point is that your buddy is an actor, and your gun is a *gun*.

But in shadowrun, a gun is very rarely just a gun. The whole point of smartguns is they are able to "think" for themselves (hence smart). Essentially you have a small computer on your weapon that is making calculations and sending it to different spots to be used.
I dont know how u can say it makes no sense, because its just like linking any other computer to a system.

If you use that argument that a gun is just a gun, wouldnt that then have all kinds of limitations for hackers trying to spoof your smartgun system to drop its magazine or something?

i may be totally wrong of course, but what i really want to know is why you think the sensors in a smartgun system wont make sense being connected to tacnet.

[Yerameyahu]

I didn't say it's 'just a gun', I said that it *is* a gun, as opposed to a mobile, animate entity. A smartgun is a ranging/aiming/electronic controls package, not a drone. I've repeatedly said that smartgun sensors *do* make sense on a tacnet—as a sensor carried by the gun's user. What doesn't make sense is for a smartgun to be an independent tacnet member.

Personally, I'd prefer the entire tacnet mechanic to be redone, with sensor input (from dozens of sources) being one thing, and bonus output (to a few drone/people) being the result; however, that's obviously a house-rule remake, not the RAW.

[IKerensky]

Dont forget that Smartguns have limitations, Smartgun bonus cant be used when dual-wielding guns by example...

"Two-gun attacks also negate any dice pool bonuses from smartlinks or laser sights." SR4A-p.150

[Mäx]

Dont forget that Smartguns have limitations, Smartgun bonus cant be used when dual-wielding guns by example...

"Two-gun attacks also negate any dice pool bonuses from smartlinks or laser sights." SR4A-p.150

Thats just one of those stupid "for game balance" rules.

[Yerameyahu]

Yeah, stupid 'game balance'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Mäx]

Yeah, stupid 'game balance'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

No, a stupid rule.
It doesn't make any sense.

[Yerameyahu]

It makes some sense. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Mäx]

It makes some sense. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Well it makes a whole lot of sense from the percpective of game balance. but it doesnt make any sense to me from fluff point of view.

[Dumori]

If you use restricted gear for 2 forarm weapon mount toting a SMG each. And they playt for modular cyber limbs you can hav street legal arms and your combat arms. the problem the base arms cost 1.1 more and have +1 availability. This shoudln;t effect much. With the foram mounts being drones you can tacnet them and expect a DP of at least 10 if you upgrade them right. Plus your arms and hand are your won alowing you to pack too more guns if need be. I woudl recomend being a TM for this but its a bit pricy on the essence. But a few spirtes would kick but in the weapon mounts.