Bow rule clarification needed, Is firing one a simple action or complex action? Options

[SnakeChomp]

Hi folks. Unfortunately it was quite hard to search for information on this topic because the word bow is 3 letters and does not meet the search engine requirements of 4 letter words. Anyway, I was reading an older thread, http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=23795, and it contained a debate as to whether firing a bow is a simple action or complex action. It seems the rules are still vague on this point as my SR4a book does not address this topic to my satisfaction.

Basically, the problem is that the "fire weapon" action does not specifically include bows. In fact, there is no text anywhere that I could find that covers firing the bow; there is only text describing nocking an arrow as part of the ready weapon action.

Has anyone figured out what the devs intended when it comes to actually firing a bow yet?

[Whipstitch]

I would rather hope that the intent is that bows are treated like a single shot firearm that you reload via the Ready Weapon action. There's as much support for that interpretation the books as there is for any other suggested archery method (read: not a lot) and most everything else I've seen suggested seems rather like making a complicated mess out of something that would otherwise be rather simple.

[Yerameyahu]

I assume you use the Throw action, basically, which is Simple. It seems to be an oversight, but there's no reason to think shooting a bow isn't the same as Throw (or Fire, for that matter). Ready Weapon, and then 'Shoot Bow'.

[Whipstitch]

Yeah, saying it's like thrown is a bit more precise, although it amounts to the same thing, for the most part. If I remember correctly the BBB just says that bows/projectile weapons are subject to the Ranged Combat rules but with some extra rules that are defined in the Street Gear chapter. Thrown weapons and arrows for the most part are handled the same as guns but have their own loading procedures. Then again, I haven't bothered to make the SR4A revisions a regular part of my life yet, so perhaps that wording has changed somewhat.

[Medicineman]

1st simple Action Ready Arrow (from Quiver to String)
2nd simple Action Shoot Arrow
that means 1 Arrow per Iniphase
If you're an Adept with Quickdraw than its 2 Arrows per IP

HokaHey
Medicineman

[toturi]

1st Initiative Pass
1st simple Ready Bow(or Arrow)
2nd simple do something else (like Aim)

2nd Initiative Pass
Complex Action Use Skill (shoot bow/arrow)

[Medicineman]

@Toturi
2nd Initiative Pass
Complex Action Use Skill (shoot bow/arrow)


Hmmmm....
When I consult my German BBB I find no complex Action" Fire Bow"
but I find the simple Action" fire Weapon","ready Weapon" and even "use simple Item " (and I think that Pulling a Bowstring is a simple Action)
Why do you Think that shooting an Arrow is a complex Action ?

JahtaHey
Medicineman

[Elfenlied]

Well, here's my take on this whole thing:
Assuming you have Quick Draw or Krav Maga:
1st IP:
Free Action: Ready Arrow
Simple Action: Fire
Simple Action: Ready Arrow

2nd IP:
Simple Action: Fire
Free: Ready Arrow
Simple Action: Fire

Rinse and repeat.

[toturi]

@Toturi
2nd Initiative Pass
Complex Action Use Skill (shoot bow/arrow)


Hmmmm....
When I consult my German BBB I find no complex Action" Fire Bow"
but I find the simple Action" fire Weapon","ready Weapon" and even "use simple Item " (and I think that Pulling a Bowstring is a simple Action)
Why do you Think that shooting an Arrow is a complex Action ?

JahtaHey
Medicineman

Please refer to the thread that the OP had linked for more but in short, I think that the appropriate action for shooting a bow/crossbow/other ranged weapon that is not a firearm is Use Skill.

[Yerameyahu]

Nah, Simple Action.

[toturi]

Nah, Simple Action.

Eh? So where does it explicitly say that? Quote?

[HugeC]

You know, I was wondering why the adept power Quick Draw existed when there was Krav Maga, but if firing a bow is a simple action, then using Quick Draw to prep the arrow and fire in the same simple action is actually preferable to readying a weapon as a free action, since you only get one free action per IP.

I guess this debate boils down to how many times one thinks a human could shoot a bow in 3 seconds. For example, if it seems reasonable that an unaugmented person trained in archery could probably draw and shoot 1 arrow in that amount of time, that means it has to be 1 simple to draw, and 1 simple to shoot.

I googled for archery rate of fire but couldn't find anything definitive. There were alot of RPG rules that came up though. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

Where does it say it's *not* a Simple Action?

[Udoshi]

Doesn't Ready Weapon let you ready one-half your agility in Weapons - if you had an agility of four, couldn't you ready two arrows, then fire each with a simple action, one after the other? I mean, the arrows are Ready, as per the ready action - they don't necessarily need to be nocked all at once.

Totori: Haven't you noticed? Ranged weapons are -never- complex actions(full bursts are the only exception). Also: Page 155:"The ranged combat rules apply to bows and throwing weapons. Due to their nature, some special rules also apply." Therefore, because it is a ranged weapon, it is fired via Fire Weapon, a simple action, if you're looking for a more rules-intensive answer.
If you can use the quick-draw rules to draw-nock-fire, with a simple action, it doesn't make sense at all for firing a bow normally to randomly be a complex action.

[sabs]

I could see argument that firing a bow is 3 simple actions:
Ready Weapon: Knock Arrow and Draw Back Bow.
Aim Weapon
Fire Weapon: Heck, this could almost be a free action, all it takes to fire a bow is releasing the tension.

[DrZaius]

In my opinion, your GM could rule either way. Like Toturi said, it's not explicitly spelled out either way. Personally, I would rule 1 simple action to ready weapon (knock an arrow), and 1 simple action to fire; but I could see a GM making a point that firing a bow is more complicated, etc. etc. etc. Really, just come to a decision with your players (or your GM) and just go with it. The game is supposed to be fun! Just my 2 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)

[Mäx]

Totori: Haven't you noticed? Ranged weapons are -never- complex actions(full bursts are the only exception). Also: Page 155:"The ranged combat rules apply to bows and throwing weapons. Due to their nature, some special rules also apply." Therefore, because it is a ranged weapon, it is fired via Fire Weapon, a simple action, if you're looking for a more rules-intensive answer.

Toturi's point is that Fire Weapon action is only used to fire firearms ,whics a bow definedly isn't.
He's of the opinion on that most apliable action to this situation is Use Skill whics is a complex action.

[toturi]

Where does it say it's *not* a Simple Action?

Where does it say that it *is* a Simple Action? I am saying that Us(e)ing the Archery Skill is a Complex Action.

Totori: Haven't you noticed? Ranged weapons are -never- complex actions(full bursts are the only exception). Also: Page 155:"The ranged combat rules apply to bows and throwing weapons. Due to their nature, some special rules also apply." Therefore, because it is a ranged weapon, it is fired via Fire Weapon, a simple action, if you're looking for a more rules-intensive answer.
If you can use the quick-draw rules to draw-nock-fire, with a simple action, it doesn't make sense at all for firing a bow normally to randomly be a complex action.

I have noticed that what you state is not necessarily true. Firearms are -never- complex actions with full bursts being the exception. Fire Weapon appears page 147 SR4A, it is a Simple Action. It is not part of the Range Combat rules per se, which appear on p150-153 SR4A. Hence it is not a Ranged Combat rule.

You use the quick draw rules to draw an arrow and nock (via Ready Weapon). If you wish to simply to draw a readied bow and fire without the use of the Archery skill, I can certainly see it as a Use Simple Object Simple Action.

[otakusensei]

Where does it say that it *is* a Simple Action? I am saying that Us(e)ing the Archery Skill is a Complex Action.


I have noticed that what you state is not necessarily true. Firearms are -never- complex actions with full bursts being the exception. Fire Weapon appears page 147 SR4A, it is a Simple Action. It is not part of the Range Combat rules per se, which appear on p150-153 SR4A. Hence it is not a Ranged Combat rule.

You use the quick draw rules to draw an arrow and nock (via Ready Weapon). If you wish to simply to draw a readied bow and fire without the use of the Archery skill, I can certainly see it as a Use Simple Object Simple Action.

How is Archery different from Pistols? You don't have to use Use Skill to make use of the Pistols skill. You use an action and you base your ability off the skill. Fire Weapon seems to work because a bow is a weapon. A weapon you have to ready for each shot, but still a weapon and a weapon skill.

[Whipstitch]

How is Archery different from Pistols?

Because firearms were singled out in the rules. That they do not require a Complex Action is something of an exception since doing almost anything else does require one. It may be worth noting as well that Quick Draw rules make a direct reference to using weapons that require Complex Action to fire.

[Rand]

@ToturiWhen I consult my German BBB I find no complex Action" Fire Bow"
but I find the simple Action" fire Weapon","ready Weapon" and even "use simple Item " (and I think that Pulling a Bowstring is a simple Action)
Why do you Think that shooting an Arrow is a complex Action ?

JahtaHey
Medicineman

You haven't actually fired a bow, have you? It is much more complicated, physically, than picking up a gun, taking it off "safe", aiming, then firing. For one, you have to continually steady the arrow as you draw the bow and aim, which is usually an arc trajectory - much harder to mentally perform than sighting with modern firearms. So, a bow is much harder to use, both mentally and physically, than a firearm and should have special rules. I would go so far as to say, that it takes a complex action to do each of the steps* (draw/aim & fire, for 2 steps) so that the fastest people in the SR world (those with 4 IP) can get 2 well aimed shots off in 3 seconds. An amazing feat. I would also be willing to put in there, that if you use a bow built to your strength it is even harder, but that probably isn't needed.

*And Quickdraw and Krav Maga won't help here.... sorry.

[Oni Baloney]

So, a bow is much harder to use, both mentally and physically, than a firearm and should have special rules. I would go so far as to say, that it takes a complex action to do each of the steps* (draw/aim & fire, for 2 steps) so that the fastest people in the SR world (those with 4 IP) can get 2 well aimed shots off in 3 seconds. An amazing feat. I would also be willing to put in there, that if you use a bow built to your strength it is even harder, but that probably isn't needed.

*And Quickdraw and Krav Maga won't help here.... sorry.

The problem with this is that an unaugmented person would get to fire only once every other combat turn, which doesn't seem right to me.

I found some "speed" archery videos that may (or not) add something to the discussion. The fastest seems to about 2-3 seconds / arrow.
here, here, and here.

[Rand]

The problem with this is that an unaugmented person would get to fire only once every other combat turn, which doesn't seem right to me.

I found some "speed" archery videos that may (or not) add something to the discussion. The fastest seems to about 2-3 seconds / arrow.
here, here, and here.

So someone who was well (read: expertly) trained (and unaugmented) could fire a single arrow in one 3-second combat round (in the last IP)? Sounds about right to me. The trained, but not expert, would only get to fire a single arrow everyother combat round, also sounds about right. Why do you think we invented guns? Why do you think bows aren't used today? It certainly isn't because they are just so feasible as an everyday weapon. Guns are much easier, in many ways, compared to bows, even the training in using a bow correctly for battle is much more complicated and time consuming than learning to use a modern firearm. I dare say it, it was easier for me to become a USMC artilleryman (M198, 155mm towed howitzer) than it would be for me to become a longbowman in Jolly Olde England. If I remember right (and that is a big IF) artillery school at Ft. Sill, OK was 3-4 months. Didn't it take years to become fully proficient in the longbow?

As for the speed videos: do that while defending yourself.

[Whipstitch]

*And Quickdraw and Krav Maga won't help here.... sorry.

Quick Draw the Adept Power does help. Honestly, they should have just named one of 'em Fast Draw to cut down on confusion.

[Whipstitch]

Why can't we delete posts again?