CGL Speculation #9, Please review ToS before posting Options

[Ancient History]

Clarification. So far as I know, we weren't told to use your drafts as an outline. I certainly wasn't. I was told to look at one of the writers who had not terminated his contracts.

Clarification. Certain of the authors very obviously were at least handed a list of locations taken directly from my drafts and told to write them in. I don't know which ones were yours, and I'm not claiming plagiarizing. I'm claiming Jason is a weasel without professional ethics.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

And we are now back to the Ax Grinding... I thought that we were done with that...

Oh well... Where is the Popcorn?

Keep the Faith

[otakusensei]

And honestly, I do not agree with that particular opinion at all; I actually like the content that IMR/CGL has put out, and am eagerly awaiting more. I am sorry that you do not... I have been playing Shadowrun since 1990, and I can say that there is a LOT of stuff previously that I did not like (many is the time that I thought that the Current Writers did not give the proper care, or did not know what they were doing)... My personal opinions did not determine what was printed in the least. I may not like how IMR/CGL is run, but who really cares? I do not like how a LOT of companies are currently run; It does not mean that I am going to stop buying Gas because I do not like how BP has screwed things up...

Anyways...

Keep the Faith

I've been a huge fan of 4th and SR4A particulally, even though I cut my teeth with pen and paper games playing SR2 when it came out. To me, Shadowrun has always been the game that the rest of the hobby revolves around. When I mention things I don't like, I'm talking mostly about the rewritten sections of Corp Guide, most of Spells and Chrome and the quality of the finishing work done on both. For the vast majority of Jason's tenure he has been pushing through work that others have already done. If his job as line dev is to see that things are done to a high level of quality he has failed.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Clarification. Certain of the authors very obviously were at least handed a list of locations taken directly from my drafts and told to write them in. I don't know which ones were yours, and I'm not claiming plagiarizing. I'm claiming Jason is a weasel without professional ethics.

What you have described in no way shows a person who is a weasel with no professional ethics.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I've been a huge fan of 4th and SR4A particulally, even though I cut my teeth with pen and paper games playing SR2 when it came out. To me, Shadowrun has always been the game that the rest of the hobby revolves around. When I mention things I don't like, I'm talking mostly about the rewritten sections of Corp Guide, most of Spells and Chrome and the quality of the finishing work done on both. For the vast majority of Jason's tenure he has been pushing through work that others have already done. If his job as line dev is to see that things are done to a high level of quality he has failed.

Gotcha... I have yet to read the two references you have provided (I have a singular lack of resources, and am holding them for the 6WA). As for Quality... 2 out of a lot (Specifically Corp Guide and Spells and Chrome) is not a lack of high quality across the boards in my opinion... Produced works will always have a cross section of people who like/hate the particular work in question. For 4th Edition, in my opinion, the works have been of a much higher quality than what has come before...

Keep the Faith

[Ancient History]

Let me make this clear: my drafts (hey, you can go read them) specifically mentioned cities and particular places. When I first saw the drafts, I was a might concerned - and addressed the situation with Jason privately, and Randall assured me there was no copying. Later on I considered that the maps drawn for my draft were being re-used, so of course there would be some overlap - that's fair, I understand if two drafts have Hellbender Valley, that's fine.

What gets my goat - really gets my goat - and which I consider unprofessional are two things:

1) The inclusion of places not on the maps which were unique to my drafts. The chances that two drafts on the Carib would happen to prominently feature both the Cayman Trench and Phantom Islands (the last one I made up) are close to nil.

2) One of the authors told me they were given a specific list of cities and places to write about, and it's pretty bloody obvious that these were taken directly from my drafts. Several of the drafts list the exact same cities, in the exact same order as I gave them. That's a hell of a coincidence.

So yeah I think it's unprofessional - not just because Jason was lazy in ripping an outline from my drafts and handing it to the new writer, but Jason was either so oblivious or just didn't give a damn that he didn't even bother to check and see if any of those places had ever been mentioned in Shadowrun ever before. Especially considering I had specifically brought those concerns to his attention in an e-mail.

So yeah, I think that's unprofessional and shows a demonstrable lack of ethics and judgment.

[Congzilla]

A little off topic but slightly relevant to a few comments so far and figured there might actually be someone here that could answer this.

I have read a lot about BT being favored over SR in this thread. One area where SR is apparently favored over BT is in the book binding, and being as we are talking about a book publisher it seems important. I just received six SR books and three BT books from Amazon today. The binding in the BT books is completely sub-par from the SR books. Why do the BT books lack a headband? Why does the crash look almost non existent on the BT books?

On a side note, I got my EP book today as well. Absolutely amazing stuff, just outstanding, I cannot wait to play that game. CGL completely screwed the pooch letting that IP go. One minor criticism, I swear, like a lot ie. all the time, but in the first few sections some of the f-bombs felt forced and didn't really add anything to the writing. It doesn't diminish the pure awesomeness just felt like throwing it out there.

[otakusensei]

Gotcha... I have yet to read the two references you have provided (I have a singular lack of resources, and am holding them for the 6WA). As for Quality... 2 out of a lot (Specifically Corp Guide and Spells and Chrome) is not a lack of high quality across the boards in my opinion... Produced works will always have a cross section of people who like/hate the particular work in question. For 4th Edition, in my opinion, the works have been of a much higher quality than what has come before...

Keep the Faith

I agree completely on the quality of SR4 up to this point. But the thing is we're only really now seeing what Jason is capable of as a line dev, supported by the staff that are left over at IMR and the freelancers that will work for them. Judging the capability of IMR right now off the quality of anything before Spells and Chrome is a false comparison.

[Ancient History]

Well, no. Jason hasn't actually developed anything from conception to completion yet. He's just been rushing products that were already started and/or almost complete. I guess you'd really have to wait for War! at this point - which, even though conceived a couple developers before, is nothing like it was originally conceived now.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I agree completely on the quality of SR4 up to this point. But the thing is we're only really now seeing what Jason is capable of as a line dev, supported by the staff that are left over at IMR and the freelancers that will work for them. Judging the capability of IMR right now off the quality of anything before Spells and Chrome is a false comparison.

Which is why I am taking a wait and see approach to their product output rather than just panning them because I do not like them...

Keep the Faith

[otakusensei]

Which is why I am taking a wait and see approach to their product output rather than just panning them because I do not like them...

Keep the Faith

I'll admit to panning them prior to Spells and Chrome coming out. But that was only after the embezzlement came to light and I had a chance to talk to Jason. Prior to that I was sitting in my FLGS talking about how I loved Catalyst and the games they were putting out. I was running SR4A and talking up Eclipse Phase. When they picked up C-tech I pointed out what a great opportunity it was. I knew that the schedule of SR books was crap, but I trusted them and figured they had a good reason. They had a reason. It wasn't good, and it destroyed that trust. And yet, I waited to see what the story was before I decided on my present position.

At this point it's walked, it's flew and it continues to quack, so it's not hard to see that the duck is by all accounts a duck. If you want to wait and see if it's a cow, feel free.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I'll admit to panning them prior to Spells and Chrome coming out. But that was only after the embezzlement came to light and I had a chance to talk to Jason. Prior to that I was sitting in my FLGS talking about how I loved Catalyst and the games they were putting out. I was running SR4A and talking up Eclipse Phase. When they picked up C-tech I pointed out what a great opportunity it was. I knew that the schedule of SR books was crap, but I trusted them and figured they had a good reason. They had a reason. It wasn't good, and it destroyed that trust. And yet, I waited to see what the story was before I decided on my present position.

At this point it's walked, it's flew and it continues to quack, so it's not hard to see that the duck is by all accounts a duck. If you want to wait and see if it's a cow, feel free.

No, I just wait to see if it will be a Swan or remain an Ugly Duckling (Note that they both still may sound like a duck)... it is all relative I guess... I do not change my mind that a Game System is bad, or that the quality is bad just because someone has some accounting problems and payment issues... The Quality is STILL good and the Game System is still superior to many out there, regardless of issues at the company... Nothing in that regard has changed in the slightest in my opinion except that a company is having money issues that seem to be on the mend.

Keep the Faith

[otakusensei]

No, I just wait to see if it will be a Swan or remain an Ugly Duckling (Note that they both still may sound like a duck)... it is all relative I guess... I do not change my mind that a Game System is bad, or that the quality is bad just because someone has some accounting problems and payment issues... The Quality is STILL good and the Game System is still superior to many out there, regardless of issues at the company... Nothing in that regard has changed in the slightest in my opinion except that a company is having money issues that seem to be on the mend.

Keep the Faith

They have a lot to work with in relation to the game, I agree completely with you. The management side of IMR has a lot to be desired though, and they are the bosses. Jason himself has been caught making some bad rules calls, and that scares me. It wouldn't be that big a deal if I was sure he had people around him who know and care about the game. But when I think of that the first person who comes to mind is AH, and well...

[Ancient History]

Well, t'be fair I've made my share of bad rules calls too. I'm more concerned with the shoddy editing and development of the last couple releases.

[BlueMax]

Well, t'be fair I've made my share of bad rules calls too. I'm more concerned with the shoddy editing and development of the last couple releases.

Perhaps I am a different from of ancient history but, I remember the editing of Donna Ippolito and the books of the far past.

BlueMax
/sad that I remember the editors name

[otakusensei]

Perhaps I am a different from of ancient history but, I remember the editing of Donna Ippolito and the books of the far past.

BlueMax
/sad that I remember the editors name

There have always been a few errors here and there. But I'm five stories into Spells and Chrome and I have yet to find one story that doesn't contain a typo that would have been caught on a read through. It's sloppy and unprofessional. Shadowrun deserves better.

[BlueMax]

There have always been a few errors here and there. But I'm five stories into Spells and Chrome and I have yet to find one story that doesn't contain a typo that would have been caught on a read through. It's sloppy and unprofessional. Shadowrun deserves better.

You have me there, I don't read the short fiction. Only the rules books.

BlueMax

[Abstruse]

Quick legal question...is the license itself considered an asset to the company?

The reason this is important...say IMR/CGL is forced into Chapter 7 and that the license was extended beyond the date of the hearing...if CGL/IMR is forced into Chapter 7, they must immediately pay off all debts and if they are unable to, any assets may be liquidated to pay those debts. If the license itself is considered an asset, could it be forced to be auctioned off to the highest bidder for the remainder of the term of the license, or would it immediately revert back to Topps?

[Penta]

Abstruse, that's a damn good question. One I suspect we'd need an actual lawyer, who actually practices bankruptcy or copyright law, to answer, because I don't think (after a quick skimming of Lexis Nexis) that there's an obvious answer.

[lehesu]

I suspect it reverts to Topps.

[Abstruse]

Abstruse, that's a damn good question. One I suspect we'd need an actual lawyer, who actually practices bankruptcy or copyright law, to answer, because I don't think (after a quick skimming of Lexis Nexis) that there's an obvious answer.

If I were Topps, I would've built a contingency into the license stating that if something like this happens, the license reverts back to Topps or else some other form of kill switch that invalidates the license just to prevent some other company from buying the license and being able to sit on it for no other reason than to hurt Topps (only reason I can think of to bid on the license in auction rather than try to come to an agreement with Topps legit other than hoping the auction would be cheaper than buying it from Topps).

This branch of logic raises its own questions...like is Topps paid a flat fee or a percentage off the license? If the former, would they get anything from an auction? If the latter, would they get the same rate from a new company? Also, who would then get ownership of anything at the printers/in stock (Corp Guide, Sixth World, stock of current books, etc)? There's just a ton of questions this raises if it's true.

Of course, if the license itself is not an asset or if Topps has a deadman's switch sort of thing build into the license for this effect, then all of these questions are moot...

[otakusensei]

Of course, if the license itself is not an asset or if Topps has a deadman's switch sort of thing build into the license for this effect, then all of these questions are moot...

The more I think about it, the more I think you might be right there.

The license is distinct from ownership of the IP. The IP rights would work like you were talking about above, but Topps only licenses IMR ot use them, IMR doesn't really own anything by my understanding.

Of course I could be wrong. I'm interested to hear from someone who has some knowledge of these types of licenses.

[Abstruse]

The more I think about it, the more I think you might be right there.

The license is distinct from ownership of the IP. The IP rights would work like you were talking about above, but Topps only licenses IMR ot use them, IMR doesn't really own anything by my understanding.

Of course I could be wrong. I'm interested to hear from someone who has some knowledge of these types of licenses.

That's the question though...Topps owns the IP, no question there...but is the license to use that IP considered an asset or not? The IP itself is not an asset of IMR as they do not own the IP...but the license to publish the IP might in and of itself be considered property and thrown on the auction block.

But I think I agree that we're going to need a lawyer to make sense of that bit...

[Abstruse]

Or see an actual copy of the license agreement...which is not something that's public as far as I know.

[Congzilla]

That's the question though...Topps owns the IP, no question there...but is the license to use that IP considered an asset or not? The IP itself is not an asset of IMR as they do not own the IP...but the license to publish the IP might in and of itself be considered property and thrown on the auction block.

But I think I agree that we're going to need a lawyer to make sense of that bit...

No it would not be an asset. If CGL goes belly up the contract becomes null and void and the license reverts back to Topps. Where is could be used in the argument is simply to show possible future revenue since they can definitively show the profit made from it to support them in the bankruptcy hearing.