FFBA: What's the point?, Extra cheese, if you please... Options

[Wandering One]

That is generally how I look at it. It is very, very easy to make the characters resist 10+DVs frequently without even pulling out the big guns or prime runners. And even though it stacks you still need a decent body to wear it, its not encumbrance free just 1/2d. So lets say you have a 4 body without penalties you could have a lined coat and level 2 FF body armor for a total of 14 dice of damage resistance. You take a short narrow burst with a single net success and you are still taking damage on average. If that was a long burst you are hurt pretty bad with that 1 net success. Do you really need the players to be taking 1-2 boxes more an average in your games? The answer may be yes, maybe your opposition rarely has automatic weapons so total DVs are usually like 5 or 6 and you don't want every orc and troll to bounce everything.

Personally, I want the enemy troll with the mounted minigun to be the 'omgwtfbbq' moment, not par for the course.

[Saint Sithney]

I dont have my books on me atm, I just assumed it was shirt and rugby short coverage for the first level, from ankle to wrist of the second and everything for the third, my mistake there.

Yeah, the shirt option says it covers the torso only. It's basically a vest, but I like to imagine it as an undershirt/wifebeater. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Sure, armour may be more advanced, lighter and flexible, but in my mind it will be cumbersome up untill the point we can make a uber-metal at the same consistency and texture as cotton.

Monofilament and spiderweave fabrics, metal-ceramic composites and armor gel to round it off, right on p. 326 of the main book. As standard-issue.

Shadowrun has nanotechnology for quite some time now.

And for the muggyness, even a shirt can make you feel stifled and sweaty, I doubt any advanced armour will do better.

In 60 years? Only the cheapest ones possible.
Functional clothing exists today.

[Shinobi Killfist]

You do got a point Rot, I am going by 5th age knowledge and materials, but thats also because I dont like thinking all things are possible because technology has made it so (Im not saying that is what you are saying, just an opinion). Sure, armour may be more advanced, lighter and flexible, but in my mind it will be cumbersome up untill the point we can make a uber-metal at the same consistency and texture as cotton.

And for the muggyness, even a shirt can make you feel stifled and sweaty, I doubt any advanced armour will do better. Also, I know the stacking rules are different, but I still see several layers of semi-stiff, solid plates as being bulky, no matter their flexibility or size.


I dont have my books on me atm, I just assumed it was shirt and rugby short coverage for the first level, from ankle to wrist of the second and everything for the third, my mistake there.

The thing is they have rules for that x2 body in either ballistic or impact armor and it starts getting to be a pain in the butt. FFBA you 1/2 the values before factoring the total. Why add an extra layer of its uncomfortable when they have a rule for when it becomes uncomfortable.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Personally, I want the enemy troll with the mounted minigun to be the 'omgwtfbbq' moment, not par for the course.

Considering a long burst from a SMG with 1 net success jacks most people up pretty damn hard in my example with FFBA, I think that moment is still a omgwtfbbq moment. Now if you want it to be instant death maybe FFBA changes that(by 2 boxes of damage mind you). But I generally don't want things to be instant death for the players.

[Drace]

Monofilament and spiderweave fabrics, metal-ceramic composites and armor gel to round it off, right on p. 326 of the main book. As standard-issue.

Shadowrun has nanotechnology for quite some time now.

In 60 years? Only the cheapest ones possible.
Functional clothing exists today.

Personally I dont see monofilament metal being used in cheap armour. I know it is stated, I personally just dont think it is viable, otherwise everything would have mono-edged or be made of monofilaments to reduce size. I still see monofilaments as too expensive to do that. Spider weave is a different matter and you got me there, and Nanotech is damn expensive last I checked, too expensive to make a nanotech shirt or armour IMO. The gels still have to be in a gel pack, which may not be bulky, but once it is used, it is used up, unless there are tons of smaller packs, which I would assume would be bulky. The metal ceramics, while more light than base metal composites, I see as being just as stiff and inflexable, if not more so.

The thing is they have rules for that x2 body in either ballistic or impact armor and it starts getting to be a pain in the butt. FFBA you 1/2 the values before factoring the total. Why add an extra layer of its uncomfortable when they have a rule for when it becomes uncomfortable.

I use that for the weight's effects and dice modifiers. For other effects though, I bring in those other uncomfortable factors (water logged cloths, sweating, chafing). I dont always use them, but if I think it is warranted, I do.

[Doc Chase]

Monofilament weave should be better described as 'nanoweave'; armor created by nanotech with high-tensile materials to keep high-velocity rounds from penetrating the armor. The tighter the weave, the less chance the round has to penetrate.

I do believe there are rules for nanolathes out there. Nanobots kept cyberware functioning back in 2nd and 3rd editions, they just were behind the curve on weaponization until relatively recently in the timeline.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Personally I dont see monofilament metal being used in cheap armour. I know it is stated, I personally just dont think it is viable, otherwise everything would have mono-edged or be made of monofilaments to reduce size.

Most things are, see microwire.

I still see monofilaments as too expensive to do that. Spider weave is a different matter and you got me there, and Nanotech is damn expensive last I checked, too expensive to make a nanotech shirt or armour IMO.

Sure, monofilament wire is expensive… just microwire, it's bigger brother, isn't. And of course, people don't want to cut their own head off when they pull a strand of their shirt. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
Nanotech armor is indeed expensive, see AltSkin – however, production lines including nanotech allow for very advanced materials, as described in the main book.

The gels still have to be in a gel pack, which may not be bulky, but once it is used, it is used up, unless there are tons of smaller packs, which I would assume would be bulky.

Gel packs for impact protection only stiffen by the shock, even today, and are usually reusable. So are the additional gel packs in Arsenal.

And of course if you add chemical protection to armor, it becomes pretty water-repellent.

[Xahn Borealis]

Nanotech is damn expensive last I checked, too expensive to make a nanotech shirt or armour IMO.

He was referring to the use of nanotech in manufacturing, which is standard on most production lines in SR, AFAIK, and can produce light yet dense metals.

[Mesh]

...and noticable to anyone trained to notice (guards, secretaries etc).

I'll buy it, but it still made me giggle...

"Jane! Get me a soy-puccino, a berry blitz turbo muffin, and before I dictate this letter, I want you to scan everyone in the boardroom using your secretary training and report on who's wearing form fitting body armor."

Mesh

[Xahn Borealis]

What's he gonna do, start shooting them? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[WetworX]

So, where would you all put FFBO without the gloves, booties, and hood?

Level 3 is 6/2 with the accessories.

[Dumori]

5/2 or 4/2 depending on how mean I feel.

[Shinobi Killfist]

So, where would you all put FFBO without the gloves, booties, and hood?

Level 3 is 6/2 with the accessories.

I put it at level 2. I assume the gloves and booties are knee and elbow length. But hey everyone is different.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

Given how deadly combat is in SR, I don't see any reason not to allow players to have some more armor. 6/2 stackable armor isn't game breaking.

It is still cheesy. To me FFBA is the armor paranoid people use when sleeping and hanging out in her own house.
Stacking a FFBA with a Cameleon Coating gives you almost the same of a Red Samurai Armor for half the price.

[Doc Chase]

It is still cheesy. To me FFBA is the armor paranoid people use when sleeping and hanging out in her own house.
Stacking a FFBA with a Cameleon Coating gives you almost the same of a Red Samurai Armor for half the price.

FFBA's the stuff people wear when they go out clubbing.

[Megu]

I guess part of why I don't think it's broken is, it may stop bullets better, but it doesn't do shit against a good Stunbolt.

[Doc Chase]

I guess part of why I don't think it's broken is, it may stop bullets better, but it doesn't do shit against a good Stunbolt.

Not much does, omae.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

I don't club (except if by clubbing you mean hit someone with a stick) in this case, i prefer to use blades (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)
So, FFBA is the armor I wear when I go to sleep craddling a HK-urban fighter in my hands.

[Saint Sithney]

Breaking it down by surface area:
FFBA shirts cover roughly 25% of a person's body (the most vulnerable 26%) and provide 3/0 for protection.
FFBA half suits cover 55% of a grown person's body and provide 4/1 for protection. Again, those parts protected are more vulnerable than the parts left unprotected.

Whole suits cover 99% with all accessories and 87% of the body without gloves or hood (who can't hide boots..)

So, the increased area of protection for the 1/1 difference between shirt and half is roughly 30%.
The increased area of protection between half and full is either 32% or 44% for that additional 1/1 protection.

Admittedly, the areas covered by full over half aren't really all that critical from an "Oh god I'm dying" standpoint, but the same can be said about those areas covered by the gloves and boots (boots covering roughly 6% of a body's surface area.)
...well, the hood, of course, is covering a sensitive area, but catching a bullet to the skull is going to severely concuss or kill you regardless of penetration. Hematomas all pushing down on your Gray Matter. Ugly.

But, I suppose you could attribute the +1/+1 benefit of full FFBA to that hood. The 8% it covers is the most critical area not covered by the half suit.
Those areas covered by the half suit being the lower abdomen, genitals and the thickest parts of the appendicular veins/arteries.

[KarmaInferno]

But Joe runner wont be wearing his FFBA to everything he does, just when he is going to do certain biz I would assume. I dont think that a runner is expecting to get shot 25/8, unless they are extremely paranoid or pissed off a dragon or two.

Paranoia isn't a bad thing for a runner to have. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

My main character wears his Underwear That's Fun To Wear anytime he's not naked. Day-to-day, he wears it under either an Armani suit or an outfit specifically designed to look completely generic and forgettable - depends on what he's doing.




-karma

[blackwulf]

I would say it would be like it is in my state N.M. you can walk down the street wearing a pistol perfectly legal under the law. But within a few minutes P.D. is going to turn up asking who you intend to shoot. If you go walking around in armor at least some people will notice and depending on the area excuse me sir where is the war ? Oh and say hello to the fast response team. No armor ever made is totally undetectable no matter what its made out of it will change your movements if nothing else. Otherwise you get the rifked slug bit I saw a few years ago. The mans vest stopped the rifled slug alright but it still looked like someone ran over it with something red and squishy inside. FFBA is designed to cut down on noticeability versus hvy armor which attracts attention. However no matter what they make it of it is never going to be 0 mass Neh.

[Whipstitch]

Excuse me sir, where is the war?

My runner would respond with "In Redmond" or "on the 405." And after saying that, the officer would pretty much have to let him go or start bending the rules because body armor is unrestricted in the world of SR4.

That's because things are not like New Mexico in 2072. The Redmond Barrens is bigger than modern day Albuquerque and has roughly the same population. In Redmond, there's literally a community of escaped convicts called Zoners who follow a guy named King Mungo, who apparently murdered his way to his current position. The Shadowrun setting is just a place that accepts the idea that many, many people will be wearing a fair amount of armored clothing at face value. You can buy armored business suits from fashion houses like Vashon Island that have concealed holsters included standard, and they're completely unrestricted legally and are described by the fluff as being de rigueur while Ares industrial coveralls provide 4/2 Armor and are even more common. It's just a different world. So wearing an armor jacket might get you profiled in a place like Bellevue, granted, but in that case what you're really getting pulled over for is Looking Poor On A Saturday Night, not wearing armor. Get yourself a glitzier pair of armored duds, a Eurocar, a high rating Fake SIN and suddenly things are awful polite.

[Bira]

If you're going down the road of estimating armor rating based on the percentage of your body it covers, I suggest you stop it and cook up a hit location system instead. Shadowrun's avoidance of a hit location system in favor of keeping things abstract has only led to a bunch of rules that are actually more counter-intuitive than hit locations (and to thousand of nonsensical arguments about called shots!).

[Saint Sithney]

If you're going down the road of estimating armor rating based on the percentage of your body it covers, I suggest you stop it and cook up a hit location system instead. Shadowrun's avoidance of a hit location system in favor of keeping things abstract has only led to a bunch of rules that are actually more counter-intuitive than hit locations (and to thousand of nonsensical arguments about called shots!).

The armor system is abstract, but it is an abstract based on sensible reasoning. Limited amounts of protection over large areas, such as with a lined coat, are equivalent to solid protection only over the most vital areas, such as with a standard armor vest.