FFBA: What's the point?, Extra cheese, if you please... Options

[Tyro]

My point was that the GM can still say "that load is too heavy" without saying "that load weighs X, and you can only carry Y".

[Yerameyahu]

Yeah, but that's the GM being arbitrary. No matter how well-intentioned, *not* doing that is exactly why we have the rules.

[Jaid]

Yeah, but that's the GM being arbitrary. No matter how well-intentioned, *not* doing that is exactly why we have the rules.

see, this kinda thinking just annoys me. if you want a mindless construct to run your games and blindly adhere to a set of rules, go play a CRPG. that's not what GM's are for.

[Yerameyahu]

If I got annoyed, jumping to conclusions like that would do it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) SR4 is manifestly a rule-based RPG; it only follows that encumbrance is not intended to be the realm of the GM eyeballing it.

Obviously, the game already involves lots of GM calls, and that's fine. However, this is a discussion of encumbrance *rules*; in fact, there's a specific numeric rule about carrying gear. In that context, you can see how ballpark calls would be less fitting than an agreed-upon system for the players to use.

[Saint Sithney]

If you're just talking about them having 2-3 points in strength for a front-line combatant, then it's really hard to argue a full kit of layered armor and weapons falls under 10-20 kilos. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/indifferent.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

Depends on the armor and the weapons, there in the high-tech future.

The important thing is consistency, because players plan their characters, stats, and gear. They need to have a good idea of where the lines are to do that.

[Ragewind]

Not so much, because then the GM must start assing weight to each thing and players might start complaining that "X shouldn't be that heavy", it is the future, we might as well have super resilient-light polymers and stuff".

I agree I've never run a game to where I had to worry about weight. Only tim IMO a gm should worry about carried gear is when the players start carrying or dragging something obviously heavy or awkward. (I.e. A knocked out troll, or dual weilding gattling guns with 100 ammo drums)

[Glyph]

Encumbrance really shouldn't come up that much. Even a Strength: 1 character has a carrying capacity of 10 kilos - that's about 22 pounds worth of gear that this person can tote around without suffering any penalties. I could see it coming up if a Strength: 1 person tried to wear military-grade armor and tote around an LMG on a gyromount, but normal armor and small arms would not be likely to encumber people.

[Shinobi Killfist]

If there is one thing I don't like about the armor encumbrance is that it uses BOD as the attribute to checkl the encumbrance instead of Strength. I mean, Body is already the attribute you are using to resist damage and in order to use better armor you need better Body? It is a win-win situation. With Strength, at least you force the gunbunnies to put at least 2 or 3 points in strength instead of using it as dumpstat.

I prefer it being body. You talk about the gunbunnies but who gets hurt the most by this are the deckers, mages etc. They have to have good mental stats for there jobs, they still need a decent reaction, body, and probably agility. By making it strength they also need a good strength as well. This would be fine if the game didn't come with the 200BP cap on attributes(I don't like it for things like this since 160 of those points only gets you to average) And to wear a simple armor jacket they would need a 4 strength or in other words be above average in a stat they wont ever use except for that one purpose. Body they get a use for outside fo the armor part so it is not as big of a hit. Gunbunnies have a decent reason to increase there strength anyways because with there agility and reactions they will already be combat monsters, being able to handle melee and thrown weapons broadens them out a bit. This ends up curb stomping the decker and tecnomancer in combat by making it even harder for them to wear armor and survive a shot.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

Deckers actually don't need attribute at all. They just need mad l33t 5kill2 and a good program. They could be idiots. TM's on the other hand, yeah I'll agree, but TM's already suffer enough as it is. Mages just need Willpower and another stat according to tradition, Magic/Resonance and Edge don't count on the 200 points limit anyway.

[Mordinvan]

Especially with called shots.

Not sure if you've ever talked to anyone who's ever been in a fire fight, but all the one's I know have said they always aim for the torso when possible.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Deckers actually don't need attribute at all. They just need mad l33t 5kill2 and a good program. They could be idiots. TM's on the other hand, yeah I'll agree, but TM's already suffer enough as it is. Mages just need Willpower and another stat according to tradition, Magic/Resonance and Edge don't count on the 200 points limit anyway.

Am I missing a joke? Mages don't need to avoid being hit, they don't need to sneak past people, they don't need to bind spirits, they don't need any focuses, they don't need to survive a bullet, they don't need to perceive or assense things? About the only stat mages don't need is strength. They may not need to be awesome in every stat but they can't dump any of them except maybe strength, the same for deckers and TMs.

[Jaid]

If I got annoyed, jumping to conclusions like that would do it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) SR4 is manifestly a rule-based RPG; it only follows that encumbrance is not intended to be the realm of the GM eyeballing it.

Obviously, the game already involves lots of GM calls, and that's fine. However, this is a discussion of encumbrance *rules*; in fact, there's a specific numeric rule about carrying gear. In that context, you can see how ballpark calls would be less fitting than an agreed-upon system for the players to use.

As long as your players are reasonable about the carrying abilities of
their characters, there is absolutely no need for the gamemaster to micromanage
weights and encumbrance (and if they aren’t reasonable,
feel free to penalize them appropriately).

actually, i get this crazy feeling that's *exactly* what was intended. almost as if i read it in some sort of official book.

[Glyph]

The problem comes when GMs get anal about what is "reasonable" about a character's carrying capacity. The RAW seems to imply that the GM should not bother with it in most cases, saving the encumbrance rules for situations where it would obviously apply, such as a Strength: 1 character trying to drag his unconscious buddy away from a firefight, or wearing a heavy backpack for a trip through the Amazonian jungle.

But if the GM is going to start whining about regular body armor, small arms, and a few other items, then that GM also needs to start assigning some weights to gear, because he has just made it matter again.

[Saint Sithney]

A current Interceptor Body Armor vest used by US armed forces (which i roughly equate to the 8/6 Armored Jacket) weighs 33 pounds with its ceramic inserts. If future science can drop that weight in half, that still doesn't leave much room for a Strength 1 character to carry anything else. Fancy-ass Dragon Skin armor weighs 46 lbs. Still not a good look.

Obvious solution: use karmagen. Now you don't have characters with 5 body and 1 strength anymore

[JoelHalpern]

There are a large number of issues would can allow perpetual arguments.
Some rules system view the weight of armor as encumbering. Other's don't arguing instead that well-spread weight is less of a problem.
THe rules include a specific constraint on armor. It seems to me that as long as you are under that, a character's armor should not be causing difficulty. Whether that is because of ultra-modern materials, weight distribution, or because body includes the ability to carry that sort of thing, even though it does nto help the damage with a melee weapon, doesn't matter to me.

On the other hand, I had no problem when I told the GM I was carrying a backpack full of extra stuff (reasoanbly strong character), and he said that I would face a penalty on any gymnastics moves I tried while carrying all that. It was an awkward an unbalanced load. While I was strong enough to carry it, having some effect seemed quite reasonable.

To reinforce a point another person made, if you as a GM really want to cause encumberance to matter more, then make sure to tell your players during character creation. As long as the GM and players agree, hey, it's your game.

Yours,
Joel

PS: WIth regard to FFBA particularly, as long as you are not wearing the hood and gloves, it seems to be designed to be worn with everything else. Cheese, in my view, is using the piecewise armor, and FFBA, and regular armor. And even if the GM allows it, that should be a pretty clearly heavily armored individual, just from the bulk in various places.

[Grinder]

The important thing is consistency, because players plan their characters, stats, and gear. They need to have a good idea of where the lines are to do that.

You're close to pulling a Fuchs here. Just integrate a co-mingling of funds into it and you're done (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)
It needs to be resolved between GM and players before character creation, if and how much encumbrance comes into play. Wonder what those groups that stick to RAW as much as toturi do about it, though.

[toturi]

Wonder what those groups that stick to RAW as much as toturi do about it, though.

This is one point where I am not happy with the SR4/A rules. I fall back to printed SR3 weights for those items that have SR3 analogues if weight really becomes an issue.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

Am I missing a joke? Mages don't need to avoid being hit, they don't need to sneak past people, they don't need to bind spirits, they don't need any focuses, they don't need to survive a bullet, they don't need to perceive or assense things? About the only stat mages don't need is strength. They may not need to be awesome in every stat but they can't dump any of them except maybe strength, the same for deckers and TMs.

Yes, you are missing a joke. My point is: a mage "only" needs willpower, magic and the attribute linked to her tradition. If it is Intuition, then well, you covered the Assensing part. Magic does everything else and Magic DOES NOT count on the 200 points limit to attributes.

And deckers MAY BE stupids, they don't need any attribute AT ALL to perform their jobs, they just need skills and programs.

[IceKatze]

hi hi

I guess I have a little bit of a different take on FFBA than has been posted here, so I figure I might as well share, even though nobody is liable to agree with me.

From a rules point of view, FFBA is there to ensure that armor is increased to keep it in line with the increased damage of firearms from Arsenal. I'm ok with that.

If anything, I think the cost of FFBA should be reduced. I see it as the kind of thing that any reasonably well to do citizen who lives in the sprawl would think about buying and wearing when they step outside. It gives some NPCs a modicum of life expectancy and it helps further distinguish the wage-slaves from the squatters.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

hi hi

I guess I have a little bit of a different take on FFBA than has been posted here, so I figure I might as well share, even though nobody is liable to agree with me.

From a rules point of view, FFBA is there to ensure that armor is increased to keep it in line with the increased damage of firearms from Arsenal. I'm ok with that.

If anything, I think the cost of FFBA should be reduced. I see it as the kind of thing that any reasonably well to do citizen who lives in the sprawl would think about buying and wearing when they step outside. It gives some NPCs a modicum of life expectancy and it helps further distinguish the wage-slaves from the squatters.

Actually, I see nothing wrong with teh at sort of Fluff... It is indeed something that I think the well-to-do look at...

Keep the Faith

[cndblank]

FFBA was added to keep PCs alive.

Shadowrun has always been a game where the PC are cannons but made out of glass.

SR4 took that a little further.

He who goes first usually wins.

FFBA just makes the PCs and important NPCs a little more survivable.

[Glyph]

Obvious solution: use karmagen. Now you don't have characters with 5 body and 1 strength anymore

I have always found that to be a cop-out. Characters are min-maxed either because they are powergamers, or because they feel the need to squeeze their points in order to get the character they want. I am a moderate min-maxer when I create a character, and I rarely run into that "lopsided stat" problem.

PS: WIth regard to FFBA particularly, as long as you are not wearing the hood and gloves, it seems to be designed to be worn with everything else. Cheese, in my view, is using the piecewise armor, and FFBA, and regular armor. And even if the GM allows it, that should be a pretty clearly heavily armored individual, just from the bulk in various places.

Personally, I wouldn't consider combining FFBA and PPP to be cheesy. FFBA is mainly ballistic protection, while PPP Is mainly impact protection, both stack with regular armor, and PPP even flat-out states that it is available in a "discrete protection" version. Obviously, it was put there to work just the way it does. The armor options from Arsenal make characters a bit more survivable, but still far from invincible.

[Shinobi Killfist]

I have always found that to be a cop-out. Characters are min-maxed either because they are powergamers, or because they feel the need to squeeze their points in order to get the character they want. I am a moderate min-maxer when I create a character, and I rarely run into that "lopsided stat" problem.

Well attributes are an area on BP where I don't see it as powergaming in a lot of situations, so call it your feel the need to squeeze their points in order to get the character they want.

Lets go with a street sam and straight 3 attributes, you just spent 160 points and have 40 to go. I guess you could go 4 Body, 5 agility, 4 reaction for the last 40 points but you may have wanted to be above average strength and reaction 4 is kind of weak for a front line type. Sure cyber/bioware will cover some of that but that may end up being just another form of min/maxing. So next thing you are shaving points from Chr to get a str 4 and reaction 5 base, and then you realise you'd like a 4 willpower and now you have to shave somewhere else. None of this is twinkery, you just want to be good in a few stats important to your character, and your body is still kind of light though cyber/bioware can help. A 1-6 scale is kind of small and 40 points of versatility past average is really small.

Karmagen I feel like you can get to average with a smaller percentage of your points being used up than BP, so you feel less penalized for saying my guy has a average strength.(Though karmagen for non-humans you should be buying attributes before positive mods IMO, but having made a couple unless you max and soft max a trolls str/body you still do okay.)

[Saint Sithney]

I have always found that to be a cop-out. Characters are min-maxed either because they are powergamers, or because they feel the need to squeeze their points in order to get the character they want. I am a moderate min-maxer when I create a character, and I rarely run into that "lopsided stat" problem.

You call it a cop-out - I call it a solution. In my experience, most players are not so liberal with their points as to spend them on things they think they don't need or won't use. In fact, we're discussing such a situation currently. So, if you're of the opinion that it's a bad idea to remind players that, "yes you do need that," because they might get all weepy, then what's wrong with using a progressive build system which encourages a greater range of skills and, therefore, stats?