Shadowrun Space Technology, Branching off from the Z-O thread |
Shadowrun Space Technology, Branching off from the Z-O thread |
Jun 19 2010, 01:39 AM
Post
#1
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 746 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 459 |
Significant Revision 27 December 2010: Added information on Z-O from Corporate Download.
20 December 2010: Added updates from War! 23 June 2010: Added Shadowrun Space Assets list. Reorganized. 23 June 2010: Added space references from Shockwaves. Added start of corporation focus. Fixed a bunch of spelling errors. Adding reference links. 24 June 2010: Corporate Guide updates. 30 June 2010: Almanac updates. Splitting off conversion notes to separate thread. Page References If you have a comment that touches on in-game issues please try and provide page references. There are a LOT of books, and most of the space references go back literally decades. Overview Space remains an "undiscovered country" in Shadowrun. The only in-depth coverage it has ever received was in Target: Wastelands (In-Game: pp. 66-84; Game Mechanics: pp. 124-129). Besides that, there are the occasional references to orbital goings-on related to Zurich-Orbital (e.g. Corporate Guide, pp. 27-28) or notes that Corporation X has a small facility they use for Y. War! finally gave actual game stats for the Shadowrun worlds biggest bully sticks - orbital artillery. [ Spoiler ] There are only a few thousand people total living in space as of 2062 (might be more now, what with the full-fledged Gagarin Mars colony - Corporate Guide, p. 84). With the Comet gone there doesn't seem to be a lot of impetus for orbital development though - Shadowrun fusion reactors are not helium-3 based (AFAIK) and everyone seems to have no particular problem accessing mineral wealth. Propulsion Useful Wikipedia reference page.
As far as relativistic speeds, reference the Long Distance Space Travel table in Target: Wastelands, p. 129. Delta-v is very low for Shadowrun craft; there are no direct Earth-Luna trips (p. 128) and travel times are quite long. Weapons Useful Atomic Rocket reference page. Space weaponry is supposedly limited by a series of treaties (War!, p. 159) including SALT IV, SALT V, and the Nairobi Accords prohibiting nuclear, biological, and chemical weapons in space. I'm not sure the authors really knew what SALT was (see Wiki). The major corporate stations have limited defenses, consisting of nearby killsats and onboard directed energy weapons. Most orbital weapon platforms are pointed down. There are no warships prowling around Lunar orbit waiting to unleash their hellish payload of c-beams and quantum nucleonic warheads.
[ Spoiler ] Construction Orbital manufacturing is almost exclusively oriented around producing products in microgravity for consumption down the gravity well. There is very little interest in expanding orbital infrastructure development beyond the boutique level - even the Lunar operations are low-key. We can assume that almost all construction materials are brought up the gravity well and assembled on-site (Ares has access to much cheaper Lunar metals). Nanotechnology is useful for assembly, but it cannot create something from nothing so pre-built components will probably be the order of the day in order to save time. This means that most habitats are going to be extremely flimsy contraptions as mass is at a very high premium even though there is a rather well-developed launch infrastructure to service the burgeoning LEO satellite market. Also see Space Exploration and Exploitation in Augmentation, p. 102. References of Note
Related Dumpsock Threads Shadowrun Space Sociology Shadowrun Aerospace Corporations Ares
Proteus
Evo (formerly Yamatetsu)
NeoNET (formery Novatech)
Saeder-Krupp
Shibata Construction and Engineering
Aztechnology
Shadowrun Space Assets Major Earth Projects Corporate Court -- Skyhook Space Elevator Corporate Guide, p. 69, 153) [2072]
-- Kilimanjaro Mass Driver (Corporate Guide, p. 83)
Low Earth Orbit (LEO) Independents -- Almost 50 manned stations. (Wastelands, p. 74) [2062]
Ares -- Apollo Station (Wastelands, p. 75) [2062]
Novatech -- Camelot Research Platform (Wastelands pp. 75-76) [2062]
Saeder-Krupp -- Himmelsschmiedel Orbital Factory ("Sky Forge") (Wastelands, pp. 76-77) [2062]
Evo -- Shibanokuji Freefall Resort (Wastelands, p. 77) [2062]
(Corporate Guide, pp. 83-84) [2072]
-- Smaller Stations (Wastelands, p. 77) [2062]
Aztechnology (Wastelands, pp. 77-78) [2062] -- The Spindle
Corporate Court -- Zurich Orbital (Wastelands, p. 78) [2062]
(Corporate Guide, pp. 27-28) [2072]
(Corporate Download, pp. 18-20) [2061]
Geosynchronous Earth Orbit (GEO) Independents -- Large numbers of communications, weather, and surveillance satellites. (Wastelands, pp. 78-79) [2062]
--Echo Station (Wastelands, pp. 79-80) [2062]
Ares -- Maintains UCAS spy satellites (p. 81). -- Icarus Station (Wastelands, p. 79) [2062]
Hisato-Turner Broadcasting Corporation -- The Obelisk (Wastelands, p. 80) [2062]
Trans-Orbital -- Shares launch facilities with Novatech and Proteus at Formosa Bay and Devil's Island. -- Barely A-level multinational. -- Silver Pinnacle (Station House) (Wastelands, p. 81) [2062]
LaGrange Points (L1 - L4) L1: Proteus -- Treffpunkt Raumhafen (Wastelands, p. 81) [2062]
L2: NeoNET -- Darkside Junction (Wastelands, pp. 81) [2062]
L3: Monsters -- Nerva (Wastelands, pp. 82) [2062]
L4: Ares -- Daedalus (Wastelands, pp. 82) [2062]
L5: Independents -- Angel Station ("Junkyard")
The Moon -- First lunar settlement by Saeder-Krupp at end of the 2050s (not very specific and contradicts Ares in 2055) -- Second settlement by Ares in 2055. -- Third settlement begun by Novatech (two-thirds complete by 2062, Wastelands, p. 82) Ares -- Artemis Lunar Arcology (Wastelands, pp. 82-83) [2062]
Saeder-Krupp -- Fernselt Lunar Station (Wastelands, pp. 83-84) [2062]
NeoNET -- Olympia Lunar Base (Wastelands, p. 84) [2062]
Mars -- NASA Project Cydonia in 2011 (8 astronauts to Mars, 3 survived and never reached the target) (Wastelands, p. 84). -- Yamatetsu announced manned mission to reach Mars by mid-2063 (Wastelands, p. 84) -- Proteus plans to establish a Mars station between 2072-2075 (Shockwaves, p. 14). Evo -- Gagarin Mars Colony (Corporate Guide, p. 84) [2072]
Saeder-Krupp -- Probes (Corporate Guide, p. 160) [2072]
Deep Space -- Various unmanned space probes to Pluto, Mercury, and the Oort Cloud. -- Ares planned to send manned mission to Europa in 2064 (p. 84). -- Saeder-Krupp planned on sending mining survey to the asteroid belt (p. 84). Ares -- Helios (Wastelands, p. 84) [2062]
Shibata -- Comm Satellites (Corporate Guide, p. 84) [2072]
|
|
|
Jun 19 2010, 01:45 AM
Post
#2
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 213 Joined: 11-October 09 From: Des Moines, IA Member No.: 17,742 |
Personally I think Shadowrun could use a little infusion of something like GURPS Transhuman Space.
|
|
|
Jun 19 2010, 03:33 AM
Post
#3
|
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
That would require developers and writers who motto isn't "math is hard!" I've seen no evidence of this being the case.
|
|
|
Jun 19 2010, 04:37 AM
Post
#4
|
|
Moving Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 748 Joined: 22-April 07 From: Vermont Member No.: 11,507 |
Tzeentch,
Thank you very much for the great post, will be using in my next campaign—much to the mage's horror I'm sure (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Not using GURPS much myself (since our group sticks mostly to Shadowrun and Pathfinder), is there any difference between GURPS 3 and GURPS 4 with regard to the details in your post ? |
|
|
Jun 19 2010, 04:58 AM
Post
#5
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 746 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 459 |
-- In Shadowrun's defense it has never been a hard science setting in any meaningful way. I never had any problem with that, unless it impacted the verisimilitude of the game. I'm also not an engineer or physicist, I'm an anthropologist and geographer (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)
-- There is no meaningful difference between GURPS 3e and 4e for vehicles except for the differences in how object HP are calculated. I believe this is addressed in the free GURPS Update pdf. -- As with anything homebrew this is a work in progress. It appears to give pretty reasonable results for most of the things you would want to know in a Shadowrun game (that shouldn't involve too much space combat). I'm very interested in any references that provide hard numbers of anything space-related that is outside of Wastelands and Corporate Guide. -- If I don't need to make any major changes I'll take a look at satellite remote sensing capabilities (I work with satellite data as part of my thesis, but translating that to SR4e is hard as I'm not an expert on this edition yet). |
|
|
Jun 19 2010, 06:29 AM
Post
#6
|
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
-- In Shadowrun's defense it has never been a hard science setting in any meaningful way. I never had any problem with that, unless it impacted the verisimilitude of the game. I'm also not an engineer or physicist, I'm an anthropologist and geographer (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif) Hey, that's what I got my degree in (double major). Of course I've never gotten a job doing either anthropology or geography, computers and field artillery are the only things that people have actually paid me serious money to do.... The persistent willful ignorance of the developers towards anything other then bad action movies and comic books has always annoyed me, but the rampant cluelessness in System Shutdown by everyone involved was pretty astonishing. I had foolishly assumed that at least SOMEONE being paid to write about space would bother to acquire at least a passing familiarity with how orbits worked. |
|
|
Jun 19 2010, 03:15 PM
Post
#7
|
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 96 Joined: 24-November 09 Member No.: 17,900 |
I would start with vehicle weapon rules to see what kind ship to ship weapons are possible (Arsenal 123).
However if we assume that normal physics apply, laser weapons should be dominant. The problem as I see it, with space combat is that most battles will occur at very extreme ranges, while any ships will be traveling very very quickly (compared to earth speeds). Assuming that Shadowrun doesn't have a technology that cancels inertia (and I didn't find anything of the sort), changing speed and/or direction to a significant degree in a short span of time will be near impossible, even if we ignore energy demands for that sort of thing. And in Shadowrun laser weapons are powerful enough to destroy most flimsy armor spaceships have. If I would populate the SR world with spacecraft; I would go for more of a Firefly type of feel to them. Light unarmored smugglers mostly for the runners side, with a few big corporate battleships. |
|
|
Jun 19 2010, 07:32 PM
Post
#8
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 746 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 459 |
I would start with vehicle weapon rules to see what kind ship to ship weapons are possible (Arsenal 123). However if we assume that normal physics apply, laser weapons should be dominant. -- Beam weapons will 'reach out and touch someone' very quickly, but unless Shadowrun has grav-focused mirrors (like in Traveller) they will have a number of physical limitations due to diffraction and the small (but meaningful) light-speed lag. Military spacecraft will also be rotating to keep beam dwell time at a minimum (spreading the beam energy over a much greater surface area). -- Translating this to the Shadowrun vehicle Chase Combat system(SR4A, pp. 169-170) will take some thinking. The relative ranges in particular are tricky. -- That said, I think that for most practical purposes the only things you really need to know is the acceleration and the delta-V. The other stats are just icing on the cake so that spacecraft are not completely abstracted away as irrelevent (Eclipse Phase) or simply not described at all (Shadowrun). (Atomic Rocket has an excellent discussion of this and other issues.) QUOTE The problem as I see it, with space combat is that most battles will occur at very extreme ranges, while any ships will be traveling very very quickly (compared to earth speeds). Assuming that Shadowrun doesn't have a technology that cancels inertia (and I didn't find anything of the sort), changing speed and/or direction to a significant degree in a short span of time will be near impossible, even if we ignore energy demands for that sort of thing. -- At long range and probably with zero human intervention beyond pushing a button to authorize weapons free. Maneuvering would be computer controlled and consist of small microburns to subtly adjust their path in order to cause beam weapons at light-second ranges to miss, or railguns at much shorter ranges (beyond a few dozen kilometers). This is basically Evasive Driving (SR4A, p. 170). -- Relative speed is not as important a factor if it's predictable -- note a laser really does have a practical maximum range even in space, but a railgun shot from Alpha Centauri could hit a satellite around the Earth if your math was really good and you had time to spare (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) QUOTE And in Shadowrun laser weapons are powerful enough to destroy most flimsy armor spaceships have. -- In space, there is nowhere to hide (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) It's doable to armor spaceccraft of course (even sloping the armor like a tank) but that adds mass and raises your operating costs + reduces your acceleration + reduces your overall delta-V available. -- I'll note the Endymion gets Armor 13, Body 19) = 8 automatic hits on its Body Test. This may look high, but Shadowrun has REALLY ZANY numbers for Body/Armor of large vehicles. Compare to the Partisan submarine for example (Arsenal, p. 111). So spaceraft will not necessarily explode into vapor at the merest touch of a free QUOTE If I would populate the SR world with spacecraft; I would go for more of a Firefly type of feel to them. Light unarmored smugglers mostly for the runners side, with a few big corporate battleships. -- Wastelands aside, there doesn't appear to be a lot for shadowrunners to do in space right now. The whole concept of "street criminals hired to pull off a heist on the International Space Station" doesn't sound practical does it? Because that's what you would be doing. |
|
|
Jun 19 2010, 08:27 PM
Post
#9
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 325 Joined: 18-January 09 From: Middle of Nowhere Member No.: 16,788 |
hi hi
While there might not be much for street level thugs to do in space, if a Shadowrun team has corp backing, there's a lot of stuff they could be doing. I'm in a game right now where a lot of plot is taking place in space, and although we have yet to visit space ourselves, I have a feeling we will be in the near future. Corps have habitats in space, they're probably building factories, energy collectors, mining the lunar surface to say nothing of the mars colonization attempts. If I had to make a guess, I would bet that people are still using Hohmann transfers to reach mars, probably around 2-3 months depending on the window. There's lots of opportunity for travel between Earth and the Moon, and I would imagine that most of the megacorps have research facilities in freefall or on the lunar surface. Space would be an interesting place to study dangerous paracritters since it is an environment where they would be unable to use their critter powers. I don't really expect to see much space combat going on in Shadowrun, but I would imagine that Ares, EVO and Saeder-Krupp at least would have some warships in space (even if they are just modified transports). Delta V and Acceleration are both real important, but if someone is getting into combat, heat sinking capabilities become very important, especially if you are using lasers which run very very hot. |
|
|
Jun 19 2010, 09:46 PM
Post
#10
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,424 Joined: 7-December 09 From: Freedonia Member No.: 17,952 |
I almost wet my pants when I started reading this thread!
Just a few comments to interject some reality on a subject I know a bit about (technology, engineering and physics). 1. Missiles are dang nice and compact. They would probably remain the workhorse of killing in space. 2. Nuclear propulsion was possible in the 60s technologically. It does have some downsides though... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Orion...r_propulsion%29 3. Don't forget Ion propulsion! that is used nowadays for station keeping and some NASA probes. Yea it has very low acceleration compared to chemical propulsion, but if the distance is long enough and high accel is not needed then its dang good. 4. Solar sails. Could be used in some capacity. a few years ago I went to a nasa conference and found out this mission http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MESSENGER used the basic principle of solar sails to do some maneuvers. Instead of a dedicated sail though they used the solar cell arrays. |
|
|
Jun 19 2010, 09:49 PM
Post
#11
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 368 Joined: 18-April 10 From: Boulder, PCC Sector, Denver Member No.: 18,468 |
-- Wastelands aside, there doesn't appear to be a lot for shadowrunners to do in space right now. The whole concept of "street criminals hired to pull off a heist on the International Space Station" doesn't sound practical does it? Because that's what you would be doing. *cough cough* |
|
|
Jun 19 2010, 09:57 PM
Post
#12
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 746 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 459 |
Corps have habitats in space, they're probably building factories, energy collectors, mining the lunar surface to say nothing of the mars colonization attempts. If I had to make a guess, I would bet that people are still using Hohmann transfers to reach mars, probably around 2-3 months depending on the window. There's lots of opportunity for travel between Earth and the Moon, and I would imagine that most of the megacorps have research facilities in freefall or on the lunar surface. Space would be an interesting place to study dangerous paracritters since it is an environment where they would be unable to use their critter powers. -- I totally agree, but the area has been criminally under-utilized (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Turning the game into Shadowtech Space (catchy name though) is probably not in the cards, but the interaction between magic and mana warps has always fascinated me, and some of the freelancers hinted at really cool things related to this due to the rules. QUOTE I don't really expect to see much space combat going on in Shadowrun, but I would imagine that Ares, EVO and Saeder-Krupp at least would have some warships in space (even if they are just modified transports). Delta V and Acceleration are both real important, but if someone is getting into combat, heat sinking capabilities become very important, especially if you are using lasers which run very very hot. -- Aye hence the exposed radiators being a standard design switch. This is an abstraction of the generally more complex radiator requirements from Transhuman Space (and I believe CORPS VDS, I need to re-read that book at some point). -- Let's conjure some reasons why you would go into space (or teleoperate stuff up there): * Throw nukes at the bug spirits with relative impunity. If they chase you back, well jokes on them! Ares seems to do this as an experiment (need to find the reference). How they get the nukes there is an interesting question. * Remove possession. Most possession is impossible or trivially easy to spot (everyone is living in what amounts to an open cargo container). The mana warp also should force any inhabiting spirit to vacate the premises (this is not supported by my reading of the rules, however - there are no notes regarding Inhabitation or Possession in aspected areas. See Street Magic, p. 119-120 for mana voids and p. 118 for Background Count and Magic. * Local hacks. The quasi-magical wi-fi hacking gives a significant advantage to on-site system intrusion. You would completely bypass the ICE on the uplinks, suffer no lag, and could hack local devices that may be just as useful to you as a datastore. * Mage prison. Too valuable to kill, but too dangerous to have even in a mage-rated supermax? Shoot them into space. * Planting bugs. Placing nanobugs to get picked up by the station as it orbits is trivial, but anything too large will just be vaporized by the station housekeeping laser (anything paint-flake size and up). Carrying some surveillance devices (or picking up ones already there) is a job for shadowrunners playing inconspicuous inspectors, tourists, visiting corporate honchos, or maintenance people. NOT a job for the resident troll wielding a mohawk and assault cannon though. * Sabotage. This could be as simple as releasing a modified fungus that is resistant to the current control mechanisms, infecting yourself with next years flu early before the crew gets their shots, or ensuring the station gets 11mm stem bolts when they need 10mm. |
|
|
Jun 19 2010, 10:01 PM
Post
#13
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,424 Joined: 7-December 09 From: Freedonia Member No.: 17,952 |
-- Wastelands aside, there doesn't appear to be a lot for shadowrunners to do in space right now. The whole concept of "street criminals hired to pull off a heist on the International Space Station" doesn't sound practical does it? Because that's what you would be doing. I'd go for running a heist or other more nefarious op for Ares against Evo on Mars. or perhaps getting a job to cause one of S-Ks installations out at L1 to destabilize and fall into the sun. Not all of us play street criminals. |
|
|
Jun 19 2010, 10:05 PM
Post
#14
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,026 Joined: 13-February 10 Member No.: 18,155 |
|
|
|
Jun 19 2010, 10:21 PM
Post
#15
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 746 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 459 |
They're good at shortish ranges, but you can actually target and destroy them with point defense systems. Rail gun and laser fire...not so much. -- The railgun armatures could be small missiles themselves - getting a boost before using their own maneuvering rockets to do some trick moves. But solid slugs have the advantage in that they are difficult to 'shoot down' (probably targeted ablation to knock it off course, vaporizing an object is not necessary most of the time). -- Small spacecraft (Autonomous Kill Vehicles in TS parlance) can fulfill most of the functions of traditional missiles (think Tomahawk rather than TOW). Missiles like in anime that perform those crazy Itano Circus swarms are unlikely. Space Weapons, Earth Wars -- BTW, as a brief aside the Shadowrun version of "Thor" shots is ................. well I have no idea where they got the idea that Thor was about agglomerating space junk and shooting it from a massdriver (Target: Wastelands, p. 79). There has been serious work done on this concept and I'll just link the RAND study on this (includes dropping really large things and not just "rods from god"). The most viable concept are penetrator rods with small rocket boosters to kick them out of a LEO "shed" and provide course correction before entering the atmosphere. Shooting a "ball of slag" down is going to present so much surface area that most of it will burn up. -- I need to update the links, but I have a decent selection of sites on my website as well. |
|
|
Jun 19 2010, 10:36 PM
Post
#16
|
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 96 Joined: 24-November 09 Member No.: 17,900 |
QUOTE -- At long range and probably with zero human intervention beyond pushing a button to authorize weapons free. Maneuvering would be computer controlled and consist of small microburns to subtly adjust their path in order to cause beam weapons at light-second ranges to miss, or railguns at much shorter ranges (beyond a few dozen kilometers). This is basically Evasive Driving (SR4A, p. 170). I don't think you should get the ability for evasive driving against c speed weapons. There is no reaction time for anything. What you can do is what I style a bumble bee flight pattern. Make slight oscillations along your trajectory that are of an erratic nature so to confuse the attacker with beam weapons. If that is what you meant by evasive driving then I agree with you.....though am of the feeling that it should be called something differently. Evasive driving seems to imply to me a reaction of sorts, while this sort of piloting would be preemptive measures. I think we are aiming at the same thing though, just expressing ourselves a little differently. QUOTE -- In space, there is nowhere to hide smile.gif It's doable to armor spaceccraft of course (even sloping the armor like a tank) but that adds mass and raises your operating costs + reduces your acceleration + reduces your overall delta-V available. -- I'll note the Endymion gets Armor 13, Body 19) = 8 automatic hits on its Body Test. This may look high, but Shadowrun has REALLY ZANY numbers for Body/Armor of large vehicles. Compare to the Partisan submarine for example (Arsenal, p. 111). So spaceraft will not necessarily explode into vapor at the merest touch of a free Well compared to the Winter Systems ship laser of 16P (-half armor) the Endymion ship will probably last no more then 2 shots. So you will still have time to scream. Just in space no one hears you scream.......unless you are a space marine (oh why is there only one season of that show (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif) ) QUOTE -- Wastelands aside, there doesn't appear to be a lot for shadowrunners to do in space right now. The whole concept of "street criminals hired to pull off a heist on the International Space Station" doesn't sound practical does it? Because that's what you would be doing. For that I was thinking for a more of a total retcon of the SR setting. Either by moving the timeline say 100 years forward, or just saying that by 2072 metahumanity has colonized the solar system from Venus to the Saturn rings, with several quasi terraformed moons/planets and dozens of space stations....though we might be getting out of the SR setting with that. A reason for that could be that the non awakened people of the Earth sought refuge amongst the stars against what they perceived to be the awakened threat. |
|
|
Jun 19 2010, 10:46 PM
Post
#17
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,424 Joined: 7-December 09 From: Freedonia Member No.: 17,952 |
They're good at shortish ranges, but you can actually target and destroy them with point defense systems. Rail gun and laser fire...not so much. that's not as easy as it sounds. Contrary to hollywood even modern missiles are fast and accelerate up to that speed really quick. With the way missile guidance and senors have advanced most missiles try to hit their target and large proportion of the destructive force comes from their kinetic energy. In fact alot of missiles are faster, by a huge proportion, than any gun's projectile. Its hard to compete with hypersonic and better velocities. |
|
|
Jun 19 2010, 10:53 PM
Post
#18
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,424 Joined: 7-December 09 From: Freedonia Member No.: 17,952 |
For that I was thinking for a more of a total retcon of the SR setting. Either by moving the timeline say 100 years forward, or just saying that by 2072 metahumanity has colonized the solar system from Venus to the Saturn rings, with several quasi terraformed moons/planets and dozens of space stations....though we might be getting out of the SR setting with that. I liked the way Niven had his with the asteroids and small moons being colonized instead of planets. Much easier to be a small frontier miner in the asteroid belt than on a planet where it would be about impossible to sell things to earth. Oh and the moon should always be colonized. That way there are lunies in the setting. |
|
|
Jun 19 2010, 10:56 PM
Post
#19
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,424 Joined: 7-December 09 From: Freedonia Member No.: 17,952 |
-- Small spacecraft (Autonomous Kill Vehicles in TS parlance) can fulfill most of the functions of traditional missiles (think Tomahawk rather than TOW). Missiles like in anime that perform those crazy Itano Circus swarms are unlikely. I'm not sure what you mean by Itano Circus, but as far as swarms... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_Kill_Vehicle I even heard some rumors that it might get funded again. |
|
|
Jun 19 2010, 11:19 PM
Post
#20
|
|
The King In Yellow Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,922 Joined: 26-February 05 From: JWD Member No.: 7,121 |
QUOTE A high-end cyber mercenary, a mad illusionist, an international tech fixer with far-ranging worldwide connections, an ex military hero remote controlled by a powerful DEUS-like AI and a renewed crack hacker brought back from the brink by way of magic superior AI allknowingness are NOT street level operatives. Neither is Neuromancer a good example of the street level magic noir style SR4 advocates AT ALL. Motoko Kusanagi is more street level than that. It REALLY would be nice if people who bring up Neuromancer as an example of street level play would actually read beyond the first few chapters. Also, Neuromancer assumes a lot more activity in space. More like 2001. The setting is hard to compare directly. That said, Very nice ideas, Tzeeench. Sadly, this is much better done with SR3 and it\\\'S ship fighting rules, which work notably better with large vehicles than SR4A whch is designed around street level magic noir and not Battle of Midway in Outer space, despite a number of glaring weirdnesses (like the rigged Nimitz easily dodging a pistol fired at it midship sideways at point blank range). Maybe taking ideas from that system would work better than space stations with body of 80+. QUOTE Corps have habitats in space, they\\\'re probably building factories, energy collectors, mining the lunar surface to say nothing of the mars colonization attempts. If I had to make a guess, I would bet that people are still using Hohmann transfers to reach mars, probably around 2-3 months depending on the window. The Yamatetsu Mars expedition took around a year to reach their destination. QUOTE I don\\\'t really expect to see much space combat going on in Shadowrun, but I would imagine that Ares, EVO and Saeder-Krupp at least would have some warships in space (even if they are just modified transports). What for? To burn funds they could better invest into something that actually turns out profits? They all have Surface-orbit-missiles, earthbound or airborne laser platforms, and mist have an armed habitat. What would they need space warships for? They can smack anything out of earth space they want, and the moon or Mars are too far away and too thinly populated to warrant any kind of armament going on beyond having a few suborbital transports ready who can release nukes and/or mount a laser module they can use to zap lunar/martian installations. QUOTE There\\\'s lots of opportunity for travel between Earth and the Moon, and I would imagine that most of the megacorps have research facilities in freefall or on the lunar surface. Space would be an interesting place to study dangerous paracritters since it is an environment where they would be unable to use their critter powers. Not so much opportunity beyond supply runs for the installations and the occasional scientific or exploratory probe, if you ask me. Also, what\\\'s the point of studying critters that go boom as soon as you leave the Gaiasphere because they\\\'re dual natured and cannot switch off the warp they get into, like a mage can? And there are already four Lagrange stations, two of them derelict and up for anyone\\\'s picking. No nescessity to build new stuff that\\\'s prohibitively expensive when you can recycle old stuff for a fraction of the price, eh? |
|
|
Jun 19 2010, 11:34 PM
Post
#21
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,424 Joined: 7-December 09 From: Freedonia Member No.: 17,952 |
|
|
|
Jun 19 2010, 11:47 PM
Post
#22
|
|
The King In Yellow Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,922 Joined: 26-February 05 From: JWD Member No.: 7,121 |
QUOTE * Throw nukes at the bug spirits with relative impunity. If they chase you back, well jokes on them! Ares seems to do this as an experiment (need to find the reference). How they get the nukes there is an interesting question. Source must be either corp download or target wastelands, since that is where the writeup of AresSpace happened. Also, Ares decied on a different approach to the bugs, more of a Wayland-Yutani than a Starship Troopers type. QUOTE some of the freelancers hinted at really cool things related to this due to the rules. I\\\'m intrigued. Care to elaborate? If that means my remark on paracritters is rendered wrong, I\\\'m not too unhappy about that either. QUOTE * Mage prison. Too valuable to kill, but too dangerous to have even in a mage-rated supermax? Shoot them into space. Definitly, but this can be done in LEO too. Much easier to maintain to boot. QUOTE They\\\'re good at shortish ranges, but you can actually target and destroy them with point defense systems. Rail gun and laser fire...not so much. On the countrary, Railgun fire can just as easily be deflected by hitting it with enough energy to sufficiently alter it\\\'s course. Should work almost as well as missile destruction (which wouldn\\\'t mean the missile to go poof anyway, but tot urn it at a rain of shrapnel moving at impressive speed towards you; hope your ship\\\'s casing is up to the impact). Destroying the guidance and alterig course would probably work better for a missile. QUOTE -- The railgun armatures could be small missiles themselves - getting a boost before using their own maneuvering rockets to do some trick moves. Inertia is working against that. QUOTE -- Small spacecraft (Autonomous Kill Vehicles in TS parlance) can fulfill most of the functions of traditional missiles (think Tomahawk rather than TOW). The Ares Heimdall should be a good template. QUOTE The most viable concept are penetrator rods with small rocket boosters to kick them out of a LEO \\\"shed\\\" and provide course correction before entering the atmosphere. Shooting a \\\"ball of slag\\\" down is going to present so much surface area that most of it will burn up. That was, to my understanding, the original design of the Thor system, based on discarded designs from the Regan era. QUOTE For that I was thinking for a more of a total retcon of the SR setting. Either by moving the timeline say 100 years forward, or just saying that by 2072 metahumanity has colonized the solar system from Venus to the Saturn rings, with several quasi terraformed moons/planets and dozens of space stations....though we might be getting out of the SR setting with that. A reason for that could be that the non awakened people of the Earth sought refuge amongst the stars against what they perceived to be the awakened threat. More power to you to write up your own system, but that is a concept that works worse with SR than including Cthulhutech D-Engines and hybrid Horror/Cyber mecha called Engels. I would really prefer a low-tech approach to Shadowrun Space. High SciFi is a dime a dozen out there, and most of it I personally consider stale and boring after n+2 iterations in popular fiction. And it always assumes infinite ressources, a concept that clashes very, very badly with SR\\\'s world. |
|
|
Jun 19 2010, 11:52 PM
Post
#23
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,424 Joined: 7-December 09 From: Freedonia Member No.: 17,952 |
I would really prefer a low-tech approach to Shadowrun Space. High SciFi is a dime a dozen out there, and most of it I personally consider stale and boring after n+2 iterations in popular fiction. And it always assumes infinite ressources, a concept that clashes very, very badly with SR\\\'s world. YES. |
|
|
Jun 19 2010, 11:57 PM
Post
#24
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,424 Joined: 7-December 09 From: Freedonia Member No.: 17,952 |
oh and as far as a missile with a rail gun in it... besides the engineering impossibility; one should consider that it is much more effective to simply have a detonation accelerate tungsten rods at the target as is done with current tech. No need to over fictionalize technology just for the sake of using the impossible.
|
|
|
Jun 20 2010, 12:25 AM
Post
#25
|
|
The King In Yellow Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,922 Joined: 26-February 05 From: JWD Member No.: 7,121 |
QUOTE oh and as far as a missile with a rail gun in it... besides the engineering impossibility; one should consider that it is much more effective to simply have a detonation accelerate tungsten rods at the target as is done with current tech. No need to over fictionalize technology just for the sake of using the impossible. I think the idea was to fire a missile from a railgun, as a 'first stage' kind of acceleration, so the missile can save on weight and still be as fast as if it had another booster stage. Kind of like a miniature mass driver type space launch system, only in space and with missiles. |
|
|
Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 29th March 2024 - 01:19 PM |
Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.