IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

14 Pages V   1 2 3 > »   
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> Shadowrun Space Technology, Branching off from the Z-O thread
Tzeentch
post Jun 19 2010, 01:39 AM
Post #1


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 746
Joined: 26-February 02
Member No.: 459



Significant Revision 27 December 2010: Added information on Z-O from Corporate Download.
20 December 2010: Added updates from War!
23 June 2010: Added Shadowrun Space Assets list. Reorganized.
23 June 2010: Added space references from Shockwaves. Added start of corporation focus. Fixed a bunch of spelling errors. Adding reference links.
24 June 2010: Corporate Guide updates.
30 June 2010: Almanac updates. Splitting off conversion notes to separate thread.

Page References
If you have a comment that touches on in-game issues please try and provide page references. There are a LOT of books, and most of the space references go back literally decades.

Overview
Space remains an "undiscovered country" in Shadowrun. The only in-depth coverage it has ever received was in Target: Wastelands (In-Game: pp. 66-84; Game Mechanics: pp. 124-129). Besides that, there are the occasional references to orbital goings-on related to Zurich-Orbital (e.g. Corporate Guide, pp. 27-28) or notes that Corporation X has a small facility they use for Y. War! finally gave actual game stats for the Shadowrun worlds biggest bully sticks - orbital artillery.

[ Spoiler ]


There are only a few thousand people total living in space as of 2062 (might be more now, what with the full-fledged Gagarin Mars colony - Corporate Guide, p. 84). With the Comet gone there doesn't seem to be a lot of impetus for orbital development though - Shadowrun fusion reactors are not helium-3 based (AFAIK) and everyone seems to have no particular problem accessing mineral wealth.

Propulsion
Useful Wikipedia reference page.
  • Chemical Rockets: Propulsion technologies are probably limited to chemical rockets for the most part -- kerosene-oxygen for Earth-LEO and metal-oxygen for intraorbital movement (since that can be produced on Luna).
  • Laser Lift: Laser-lift seems perfectly reasonable given Shadowrun beam weapon technology as well.
  • Spaceplanes: Shockwaves (p. 14) notes that Proteus is interested in reviving the "Sänger principle." Unclear what is special about this, as the Sänger spaceplane concept is pretty much a semiballistic with a small cargo shuttle strapped to the back (altitude of the plane and its speed significantly reduces the delta-V requirement to achieve orbit).

As far as relativistic speeds, reference the Long Distance Space Travel table in Target: Wastelands, p. 129. Delta-v is very low for Shadowrun craft; there are no direct Earth-Luna trips (p. 128) and travel times are quite long.

Weapons
Useful Atomic Rocket reference page.

Space weaponry is supposedly limited by a series of treaties (War!, p. 159) including SALT IV, SALT V, and the Nairobi Accords prohibiting nuclear, biological, and chemical weapons in space. I'm not sure the authors really knew what SALT was (see Wiki).

The major corporate stations have limited defenses, consisting of nearby killsats and onboard directed energy weapons. Most orbital weapon platforms are pointed down. There are no warships prowling around Lunar orbit waiting to unleash their hellish payload of c-beams and quantum nucleonic warheads.
  • Directed Energy Weapons: Manpack high-energy systems have been available decades in the Shadowrun universe (the MP Laser dates to 2050!). Heavy particle beams were fairly common by 2059 (Cyberpirates, p. 180 and Rigger 3, pp. 86-87). Advances seem to have dried up, and variations of these old-ass weapons are still being marketed in 2071 (see Arsenal, p. 41). The heavier Firelance is on p. 123. Closest approximation for most space systems is the Winter Systems Mercury Ship Laser (Arsenal, p. 124). Particle beam technology has taken a bit of a holiday since Rigger 3.
  • Railguns: Also another early-peak technology. There have been no substantial advances from the original Rigger Black Book (the Ares EG-200 railgun on the Stonewall heavy Thunderbird). Large space platforms will probably be using something similar to the Itzoatl (Arsenal, p. 123).
  • Satellite-Based Artillery: Somewhat available on the open market, orbital artillery ("THOR shots"/"Rods from God") have been a part of the Shadowrun canon almost from the beginning. The system described in War! (pp. 159-160) consists of five related components as part of a complete Aesir Satellite System. Similar systems are manufactured by Aztechnology (Xolotl) and, experimentally, Saeder-Krupp (Himmelhammer).
    • Thor Missile: Tungsten pole measuring 500mm x 12,000mm. Strikes with the force of a 1 kT fission bomb ... which is not really impressive in Shadowrun.
    • Freya Missile: "Tactical" weapon measuring c. 250mm x 6,000 mm. Damage approximately equal to a 0.1 kT fission bomb (10% of a Thor shot).
    • Loki canister: "Buckshot" canister shot with many smaller missiles in a container about 1 meter in length. Impact does not cause any blast.
    • Aesir Guidance Laser: Rifle-shaped laser designator specifically designed for terminal guidance of satellite artillery. Not clear why you can't use normal laser designators. Described as a maser (microwave laser) in the listing.
    • Aesir Guidance Beacon: Lunchbox-sized beacon that doubles accuracy of strikes on its location.

[ Spoiler ]


Construction
Orbital manufacturing is almost exclusively oriented around producing products in microgravity for consumption down the gravity well. There is very little interest in expanding orbital infrastructure development beyond the boutique level - even the Lunar operations are low-key. We can assume that almost all construction materials are brought up the gravity well and assembled on-site (Ares has access to much cheaper Lunar metals). Nanotechnology is useful for assembly, but it cannot create something from nothing so pre-built components will probably be the order of the day in order to save time. This means that most habitats are going to be extremely flimsy contraptions as mass is at a very high premium even though there is a rather well-developed launch infrastructure to service the burgeoning LEO satellite market.

Also see Space Exploration and Exploitation in Augmentation, p. 102.

References of Note


Related Dumpsock Threads
Shadowrun Space Sociology

Shadowrun Aerospace Corporations

Ares
  • Subsidiary of note is Ares Space.
  • Owns and operates Apollo Station (LEO), Icarus Station (GEO), Daedalus Station (L4), Artemis Arcology (Luna), Helios Station (solar LaGrange), and Charon Station (unknown location).
  • Dominates space industry. (Corporate Guide, p. 58)
  • Plans a permanent base on Phobos by 2079
  • Contracted to build the habitat and biospheres on the Skyhook.
  • Sells the Aesir Satellite System to discriminating customer that need orbital fire support (War!, pp. 159-160).
  • Timeline:
    • 2063: (July 14-21) Thor orbital bombardment of Rømø arcology.
    • 2071: Unveiled new lightsail and ion engine design.
    • 2072: (May 9) Excelsior space nano-constructors unveiled (probably for use on Skyhook project). (Corporate Guide, p. 59).


Proteus
  • Subsidiary of note is Proteus Space. Headquartered at Devil's Island arcology.
  • Researched artificial biosphere and recylcing processes to create fully autonomous space habitats (Shockwaves, p. 14).
  • Owns and operates Treffpunkt Raumhafen (L1).
  • Timeline:
    • 2057: French government grants right to use Devil Islands as a launch pad.
    • 2057: (September 1) First launch of a space rocket. Quickly followed by more successes.
    • 2058: Begins construction of second launch pad on Isla Puna off Ecuador. Construction begins on Treffpunkt Raumhafen. (Shockwaves, p. 6)
    • 2058: (December) Uses ocean arkoblocks as smokescreen to cover construction of Treffpunkt Raumhafen.
    • 2060: Trans-Orbital contracted for logistics at Treffpunkt Raumhafen.
    • 2061: Launches unsuccessful Götterbote Halley's probe.
    • 2062: (March) Treffpunk Raumhafen officially opened.


Evo (formerly Yamatetsu)
  • Subsidiary of note is Evo Space and Transglobal.
  • Owns and operates Shibanokkuji Freefall Resort (LEO) and Gagarin Mars Base (Mars).
  • Heavy lift is contracted through Roskosmos (Russia's space program). Five spaceports. (Corporate Guide, p.83)
  • Operates a half-dozen space stations. (Corporate Guide, p. 83)
  • Transglobal controls the Mojave spaceport (Corporate Guide, p. 102)


NeoNET (formery Novatech)
  • Operates Darkside Junction (L2) and Olympia Moon Base (Moon).


Saeder-Krupp
  • Operates the Himmelsschmiedel Orbital Factory (LEO) and Fernselt Lunar Station (Luna).
  • Works with the Corporate court to prevent price crashes of minerals due to lunar and asteroid mining (Corporate Guide, p. 152).
  • Operates some orbital solar collectors.
  • Contractor for Skyhook project.
  • Opened Ariane Spaceport in Korou to the public.
  • Heavily investing in space assets and colonization.


Shibata Construction and Engineering
  • Owned by a free spirit (Buttercup).
  • Contracted to maintain and upgrade the Spindle (LEO).
  • Operates commsat relays for the Gagarin Mars Base.


Aztechnology
  • Owns and operates The Spindle (LEO and various small stations.
  • Timeline:
    • 2070: (August 18) Rogue AI takes over the Tlaloc orbital station (biowarfare research facility) .
    • 2071: Unveiled new lightsail and ion engine design.
    • 2072: Excelsior space nano-constructors unveiled (probably for use on Skyhook project). (Corporate Guide, p. 59).


Shadowrun Space Assets

Major Earth Projects

Corporate Court
-- Skyhook Space Elevator
Corporate Guide, p. 69, 153) [2072]
  • Anchor construction probably will not start until late 2074.
  • Ground anchor to be located somewhere in Latin America (Ecuador, Colombia, or Venezuela).
  • Saeder-Krupp contracted to develop and manage docking and launch facilities on anchor asteroid.
  • S-K Sternensucher automated retrievers hauling steroid to Earth. Scheduled to arrive late 2073.
  • AresSpace contracted to build the habitats and biosphere.
  • Timeline:
    • 2072: (November 10) Space elevator announced.
    • 2074: Key components expected to be online.
    • 2076: Space habitat expected to be complete.


-- Kilimanjaro Mass Driver
(Corporate Guide, p. 83)
  • Still under construction (huh?!) (Corporate Guide, p. 28)
  • Used for freight and supplies.
  • Petition to shut down the mass driver upon completion of the elevator.


Low Earth Orbit (LEO)

Independents
-- Almost 50 manned stations.
(Wastelands, p. 74) [2062]
  • Most are small workshacks that house a dozen personnel.
    • Aztechnology: Tlaloc bioweapons station


Ares
-- Apollo Station (Wastelands, p. 75) [2062]
  • First station built and operated by a corporation.
  • Refitted as a supply center and transportation hub.
  • Leases space to Mitsuhama and Zeta-ImpChem, UCAS Data Systems, and Prometheus Engineering.
  • Sections of the station fall under different extraterritorial jurisdiction (yeah, that sound safe).
  • Recreational center for space workers. Vice capital of space.
  • Timeline:
    • 2019: (April 12) Apollo opened.


Novatech
-- Camelot Research Platform
(Wastelands pp. 75-76) [2062]
  • Operated by Walker Aerodesign subsidiary. Focused on materials research.
  • Station does final assembly and maintenance of satellites in LEO and GEO.
  • No subleased workspace.
  • Research modules from Nakatomi faction jettisoned "toward the sun" and could be retrieved (huh?) (may have actually been a junkball "Thor shot" (p. 79) double huh?)


Saeder-Krupp
-- Himmelsschmiedel Orbital Factory ("Sky Forge")
(Wastelands, pp. 76-77) [2062]
  • Focuses on manufacturing.
  • Steals most of its expertise.
  • Subcontracted for logistical and transportation work by smaller stations.
  • Only corporation that leases space is Cross, for biotechnical research.


Evo
-- Shibanokuji Freefall Resort
(Wastelands, p. 77) [2062]
  • Recreational station targeted at the very wealthy.
  • Little to no organized crime presence.
  • Large enough for trolls to visit.
  • Medical research for zero gravity adaptation.
  • Working on a delta clinic on the station.

(Corporate Guide, pp. 83-84) [2072]
  • Now 20x its original size.
  • Can house 1,000 guests with a staff of c. 200.


-- Smaller Stations
(Wastelands, p. 77) [2062]
  • Most biomedical research done on separate work stations.
  • Leases and supplies facilities to other Pacific Prosperity Group members.
    • Kwonsham Industries: microtronics research.
    • Manabe: biotechnical research.
    • Tan Tien: cybernetic interfaces and protein data storage.
    • Wuxing: magical research ("mana cultivation" and alchemical impact).


Aztechnology
(Wastelands, pp. 77-78) [2062]

-- The Spindle
  • Opened in 2048. Evacuated in 2050 after massive systems failure. 48 dead out of a crew of 400.
  • Now operates at 1/3 capacity.
  • Shibata handles station operations and orbital lift. Also maintains Japanese spy satellites (p. 81).
  • Hydroponic research.
  • Universal Omnitech leases space for biotechnical research. Dissatisfied with facilities but got the space cheap.
  • Shibata wants to branch the station out into a commercial hub.
  • Total garden size about 2/3 of an acre.


Corporate Court

-- Zurich Orbital
(Wastelands, p. 78) [2062]
  • Constructed of 4m x 10m cylinders for the most part.
  • Tight security.
  • Station makes supply runs to Apollo, Shibanokuji, and Icarus.
  • Has nearby weapon platforms.

(Corporate Guide, pp. 27-28) [2072]
  • Orbits at 560 km.
  • Timeline:
    • 2032: (November 15) Corporate Court takeover of Global Financial Services.
    • 2033: (March 15) GFS relocated to Z-O and renamed the Zurich-Orbital Gemeinschaft Bank.

(Corporate Download, pp. 18-20) [2061]
  • Equatorial low-earth orbit.
  • Does not spin.
  • Looks like a tinkertoy set constructed with modular cylinders.
  • Two central dodecahedron structures:
    • Rotunda: Z-O command center.
    • Meeting Room: Where the Corporate Court meets (assembled and added 2060).
  • Six mini-rotundas c. 10m in diameter serve as meeting rooms and living courters for primary residents. One or more houses Xeno-Cray ultra-computers and communication gear, gourmet kitchens, etc.
  • Timeline:
    • c. 2000s: NASA launches the Freedom space station.
    • c. 2008: AresSpace acquires NASA assets and boosts Freedom into stable orbit.
    • 2023: Acquired by the Corporate Court (note date) (p. 18).


Geosynchronous Earth Orbit (GEO)

Independents
-- Large numbers of communications, weather, and surveillance satellites.
(Wastelands, pp. 78-79) [2062]
  • Most manned stations are transit hubs or satellite maintenance facilities.
    • Tír na nÓg: Surveillance satellite watching home island (Almanac, p. 153).



--Echo Station
(Wastelands, pp. 79-80) [2062]
  • Used to be the Harris-3M Halo station before the Crash.
  • Freelancers boarded the station in 2054 and set up shop.
  • Smuggling point.
  • Saeder-Krupp provides logistic support and has small presence on the station.
  • Timeline:


Ares
-- Maintains UCAS spy satellites (p. 81).
-- Icarus Station
(Wastelands, p. 79) [2062]
  • Opened in 2060.
  • Transit station between LEO and Daedalus/Moon.
  • 0.5G spin gravity on outer ring.
  • Part of station being renovated for recreation. Various problems delaying opening to 2063 (Yamatetsu sabotage).
  • Oversees the junkball "Thor shots" by Ares.


Hisato-Turner Broadcasting Corporation
-- The Obelisk
(Wastelands, p. 80) [2062]
  • Maintains satellite constellation.
  • Squabbles with Saeder-Krupp and Ares.


Trans-Orbital
-- Shares launch facilities with Novatech and Proteus at Formosa Bay and Devil's Island.
-- Barely A-level multinational.
-- Silver Pinnacle (Station House)
(Wastelands, p. 81) [2062]
  • Launch and maintain satellites for other corporations.
  • Maintains spy satellites for the CAS, Israel, and the UK.
  • Refueling station for GEO-Moon-LaGrange travel.


LaGrange Points (L1 - L4)

L1: Proteus
-- Treffpunkt Raumhafen
(Wastelands, p. 81) [2062]
  • Operational March (c. 16th), 2062 (also see Shockwaves, p. 3)
  • Primary Proteus station.
  • Somehow noone noticed them building the station (huh?)
  • Leases space to AG Chemie Europa, Transys Neuronet, and ECC Eurotronics.
  • "scary experiments ... regarding manipulation of living human being" (huh?) (Shockwaves, p. 12)
  • Researching articial gravity (Shockwaves, p. 17).


L2: NeoNET
-- Darkside Junction
(Wastelands, pp. 81) [2062]
  • Began and stopped construction in 2055. Restarted in early 2062.
  • Half the station completed and operational.
  • Hub for Navatech lunar operations (mining surveys).
  • Base for planned automated mining and refining facility on the moon for space construction raw materials.


L3: Monsters
-- Nerva
(Wastelands, pp. 82) [2062]
  • Everyone on station died during the Crash.
  • Lifeless husk.
  • Possible home of genetic monstrosities (huh?)
  • Timeline:


L4: Ares
-- Daedalus
(Wastelands, pp. 82) [2062]
  • Ares' primary space research facility.
  • Larger than several hundre-thousand ton supercarriers combined (oh, really?)
  • Staging point for Artemis lunar arcology and Helios station in solar orbit.
  • Magical research, space weapon developments, genetics, genemodded microgravity-adapted metahumans.
  • Personally visited by Damien Knight on a regular basis.


L5: Independents
-- Angel Station ("Junkyard")
  • Formerly Harris-3M microtronics and material engineering station.
  • Lot of coalesced junk in the area.
  • Novatech and Tamatetsu want to build a station there.
  • Scavengers pick over the site.
  • Timeline:


The Moon
-- First lunar settlement by Saeder-Krupp at end of the 2050s (not very specific and contradicts Ares in 2055)
-- Second settlement by Ares in 2055.
-- Third settlement begun by Novatech (two-thirds complete by 2062, Wastelands, p. 82)

Ares
-- Artemis Lunar Arcology
(Wastelands, pp. 82-83) [2062]
  • Located near Apollo 11 landing site.
  • Houses 150 personnel.
  • Various research projects from medicine to geology.
  • Minor mining operations. Conducting more surveys.
  • Ghost sightings on the moon's surface.
  • Researching casting spells between the Earth and Moon using optical telescopes for line of sight.


Saeder-Krupp
-- Fernselt Lunar Station
(Wastelands, pp. 83-84) [2062]
  • Operated by subsidiary Lunar Mining Corp.
  • Located in vicinity of moon's polar ice caps.
  • Mines calcium and titanium ores (traces of iron, quartz and certain rare elements).
  • Hub of mining operations. Drone convoy trains shuttle ore around.
  • One mobile base not a mining station, up to shenanigans.
  • Base houses archaeologists.
  • Telesma extraction (moon rocks for alchemy - ritual significance)


NeoNET
-- Olympia Lunar Base
(Wastelands, p. 84) [2062]
  • Construction began in 2061. 2/3 complete by late 2062. Expect full completion by 2064.
  • Skeleton crew


Mars
-- NASA Project Cydonia in 2011 (8 astronauts to Mars, 3 survived and never reached the target) (Wastelands, p. 84).
-- Yamatetsu announced manned mission to reach Mars by mid-2063 (Wastelands, p. 84)
-- Proteus plans to establish a Mars station between 2072-2075 (Shockwaves, p. 14).

Evo
-- Gagarin Mars Colony
(Corporate Guide, p. 84) [2072]
  • Located at eastern end of Valles Marineris.
  • Most of base is underground. May hide military assets.
  • c. 60 personnel.
  • Water sourced from underground reservoir.
  • Three fusion reactors.
  • Hydroponics and equivalent to c. 15 hectacres (37 acres!) of crops.
  • Supplied by 18 drones in low-energy orbits between LEO and Mars orbit (2 can carry passengers).
  • Supply launches from LEO station and Svobodny cosmodrome.
  • Has some form of manasphere that it uses for research.
  • Mars Research Program developing hypersynthesis solar-collection systems and amplifier fabrics (what?!) (Corporate Guide, p. 89)
  • Planned expansion to increase population to 250.
  • Possible armed satellites in orbit and missile silos on-site (Almanac, p. 125).


Saeder-Krupp
-- Probes
(Corporate Guide, p. 160) [2072]
  • Launched unmanned probe to Mars or its moons to grow an arcology with nanites.



Deep Space
-- Various unmanned space probes to Pluto, Mercury, and the Oort Cloud.
-- Ares planned to send manned mission to Europa in 2064 (p. 84).
-- Saeder-Krupp planned on sending mining survey to the asteroid belt (p. 84).

Ares
-- Helios
(Wastelands, p. 84) [2062]
  • Sits at solar LaGrange point.
  • Long-range observation of solar system.
  • Staging point for deep space operations.
  • Super security on supply runs from Daedalus.


Shibata
-- Comm Satellites
(Corporate Guide, p. 84) [2072]
  • Mars-Earth comm relay at Sun-Mars L5 (and probably L4).
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Redcrow
post Jun 19 2010, 01:45 AM
Post #2


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 213
Joined: 11-October 09
From: Des Moines, IA
Member No.: 17,742



Personally I think Shadowrun could use a little infusion of something like GURPS Transhuman Space.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
kzt
post Jun 19 2010, 03:33 AM
Post #3


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 5,537
Joined: 27-August 06
From: Albuquerque NM
Member No.: 9,234



That would require developers and writers who motto isn't "math is hard!" I've seen no evidence of this being the case.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
MJBurrage
post Jun 19 2010, 04:37 AM
Post #4


Moving Target
**

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 748
Joined: 22-April 07
From: Vermont
Member No.: 11,507



Tzeentch,

Thank you very much for the great post, will be using in my next campaign—much to the mage's horror I'm sure (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Not using GURPS much myself (since our group sticks mostly to Shadowrun and Pathfinder), is there any difference between GURPS 3 and GURPS 4 with regard to the details in your post ?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Tzeentch
post Jun 19 2010, 04:58 AM
Post #5


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 746
Joined: 26-February 02
Member No.: 459



-- In Shadowrun's defense it has never been a hard science setting in any meaningful way. I never had any problem with that, unless it impacted the verisimilitude of the game. I'm also not an engineer or physicist, I'm an anthropologist and geographer (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

-- There is no meaningful difference between GURPS 3e and 4e for vehicles except for the differences in how object HP are calculated. I believe this is addressed in the free GURPS Update pdf.

-- As with anything homebrew this is a work in progress. It appears to give pretty reasonable results for most of the things you would want to know in a Shadowrun game (that shouldn't involve too much space combat). I'm very interested in any references that provide hard numbers of anything space-related that is outside of Wastelands and Corporate Guide.

-- If I don't need to make any major changes I'll take a look at satellite remote sensing capabilities (I work with satellite data as part of my thesis, but translating that to SR4e is hard as I'm not an expert on this edition yet).
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
kzt
post Jun 19 2010, 06:29 AM
Post #6


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 5,537
Joined: 27-August 06
From: Albuquerque NM
Member No.: 9,234



QUOTE (Tzeentch @ Jun 18 2010, 09:58 PM) *
-- In Shadowrun's defense it has never been a hard science setting in any meaningful way. I never had any problem with that, unless it impacted the verisimilitude of the game. I'm also not an engineer or physicist, I'm an anthropologist and geographer (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

Hey, that's what I got my degree in (double major). Of course I've never gotten a job doing either anthropology or geography, computers and field artillery are the only things that people have actually paid me serious money to do....

The persistent willful ignorance of the developers towards anything other then bad action movies and comic books has always annoyed me, but the rampant cluelessness in System Shutdown by everyone involved was pretty astonishing. I had foolishly assumed that at least SOMEONE being paid to write about space would bother to acquire at least a passing familiarity with how orbits worked.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ghremdal
post Jun 19 2010, 03:15 PM
Post #7


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 96
Joined: 24-November 09
Member No.: 17,900



I would start with vehicle weapon rules to see what kind ship to ship weapons are possible (Arsenal 123).

However if we assume that normal physics apply, laser weapons should be dominant.

The problem as I see it, with space combat is that most battles will occur at very extreme ranges, while any ships will be traveling very very quickly (compared to earth speeds). Assuming that Shadowrun doesn't have a technology that cancels inertia (and I didn't find anything of the sort), changing speed and/or direction to a significant degree in a short span of time will be near impossible, even if we ignore energy demands for that sort of thing.

And in Shadowrun laser weapons are powerful enough to destroy most flimsy armor spaceships have.

If I would populate the SR world with spacecraft; I would go for more of a Firefly type of feel to them. Light unarmored smugglers mostly for the runners side, with a few big corporate battleships.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Tzeentch
post Jun 19 2010, 07:32 PM
Post #8


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 746
Joined: 26-February 02
Member No.: 459



QUOTE (Ghremdal @ Jun 19 2010, 03:15 PM) *
I would start with vehicle weapon rules to see what kind ship to ship weapons are possible (Arsenal 123).

However if we assume that normal physics apply, laser weapons should be dominant.

-- Beam weapons will 'reach out and touch someone' very quickly, but unless Shadowrun has grav-focused mirrors (like in Traveller) they will have a number of physical limitations due to diffraction and the small (but meaningful) light-speed lag. Military spacecraft will also be rotating to keep beam dwell time at a minimum (spreading the beam energy over a much greater surface area).
-- Translating this to the Shadowrun vehicle Chase Combat system(SR4A, pp. 169-170) will take some thinking. The relative ranges in particular are tricky.

-- That said, I think that for most practical purposes the only things you really need to know is the acceleration and the delta-V. The other stats are just icing on the cake so that spacecraft are not completely abstracted away as irrelevent (Eclipse Phase) or simply not described at all (Shadowrun).

(Atomic Rocket has an excellent discussion of this and other issues.)

QUOTE
The problem as I see it, with space combat is that most battles will occur at very extreme ranges, while any ships will be traveling very very quickly (compared to earth speeds). Assuming that Shadowrun doesn't have a technology that cancels inertia (and I didn't find anything of the sort), changing speed and/or direction to a significant degree in a short span of time will be near impossible, even if we ignore energy demands for that sort of thing.

-- At long range and probably with zero human intervention beyond pushing a button to authorize weapons free. Maneuvering would be computer controlled and consist of small microburns to subtly adjust their path in order to cause beam weapons at light-second ranges to miss, or railguns at much shorter ranges (beyond a few dozen kilometers). This is basically Evasive Driving (SR4A, p. 170).

-- Relative speed is not as important a factor if it's predictable -- note a laser really does have a practical maximum range even in space, but a railgun shot from Alpha Centauri could hit a satellite around the Earth if your math was really good and you had time to spare (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
QUOTE
And in Shadowrun laser weapons are powerful enough to destroy most flimsy armor spaceships have.

-- In space, there is nowhere to hide (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) It's doable to armor spaceccraft of course (even sloping the armor like a tank) but that adds mass and raises your operating costs + reduces your acceleration + reduces your overall delta-V available.
-- I'll note the Endymion gets Armor 13, Body 19) = 8 automatic hits on its Body Test. This may look high, but Shadowrun has REALLY ZANY numbers for Body/Armor of large vehicles. Compare to the Partisan submarine for example (Arsenal, p. 111). So spaceraft will not necessarily explode into vapor at the merest touch of a free
QUOTE
If I would populate the SR world with spacecraft; I would go for more of a Firefly type of feel to them. Light unarmored smugglers mostly for the runners side, with a few big corporate battleships.

-- Wastelands aside, there doesn't appear to be a lot for shadowrunners to do in space right now. The whole concept of "street criminals hired to pull off a heist on the International Space Station" doesn't sound practical does it? Because that's what you would be doing.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
IceKatze
post Jun 19 2010, 08:27 PM
Post #9


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 325
Joined: 18-January 09
From: Middle of Nowhere
Member No.: 16,788



hi hi

While there might not be much for street level thugs to do in space, if a Shadowrun team has corp backing, there's a lot of stuff they could be doing. I'm in a game right now where a lot of plot is taking place in space, and although we have yet to visit space ourselves, I have a feeling we will be in the near future.

Corps have habitats in space, they're probably building factories, energy collectors, mining the lunar surface to say nothing of the mars colonization attempts. If I had to make a guess, I would bet that people are still using Hohmann transfers to reach mars, probably around 2-3 months depending on the window. There's lots of opportunity for travel between Earth and the Moon, and I would imagine that most of the megacorps have research facilities in freefall or on the lunar surface. Space would be an interesting place to study dangerous paracritters since it is an environment where they would be unable to use their critter powers.

I don't really expect to see much space combat going on in Shadowrun, but I would imagine that Ares, EVO and Saeder-Krupp at least would have some warships in space (even if they are just modified transports). Delta V and Acceleration are both real important, but if someone is getting into combat, heat sinking capabilities become very important, especially if you are using lasers which run very very hot.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Daylen
post Jun 19 2010, 09:46 PM
Post #10


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,424
Joined: 7-December 09
From: Freedonia
Member No.: 17,952



I almost wet my pants when I started reading this thread!
Just a few comments to interject some reality on a subject I know a bit about (technology, engineering and physics).

1. Missiles are dang nice and compact. They would probably remain the workhorse of killing in space.

2. Nuclear propulsion was possible in the 60s technologically. It does have some downsides though...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Orion...r_propulsion%29

3. Don't forget Ion propulsion! that is used nowadays for station keeping and some NASA probes. Yea it has very low acceleration compared to chemical propulsion, but if the distance is long enough and high accel is not needed then its dang good.

4. Solar sails. Could be used in some capacity. a few years ago I went to a nasa conference and found out this mission http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MESSENGER used the basic principle of solar sails to do some maneuvers. Instead of a dedicated sail though they used the solar cell arrays.


Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Minchandre
post Jun 19 2010, 09:49 PM
Post #11


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 368
Joined: 18-April 10
From: Boulder, PCC Sector, Denver
Member No.: 18,468



QUOTE (Tzeentch @ Jun 19 2010, 01:32 PM) *
-- Wastelands aside, there doesn't appear to be a lot for shadowrunners to do in space right now. The whole concept of "street criminals hired to pull off a heist on the International Space Station" doesn't sound practical does it? Because that's what you would be doing.


*cough cough*
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Tzeentch
post Jun 19 2010, 09:57 PM
Post #12


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 746
Joined: 26-February 02
Member No.: 459



QUOTE (IceKatze @ Jun 19 2010, 08:27 PM) *
Corps have habitats in space, they're probably building factories, energy collectors, mining the lunar surface to say nothing of the mars colonization attempts. If I had to make a guess, I would bet that people are still using Hohmann transfers to reach mars, probably around 2-3 months depending on the window. There's lots of opportunity for travel between Earth and the Moon, and I would imagine that most of the megacorps have research facilities in freefall or on the lunar surface. Space would be an interesting place to study dangerous paracritters since it is an environment where they would be unable to use their critter powers.

-- I totally agree, but the area has been criminally under-utilized (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Turning the game into Shadowtech Space (catchy name though) is probably not in the cards, but the interaction between magic and mana warps has always fascinated me, and some of the freelancers hinted at really cool things related to this due to the rules.
QUOTE
I don't really expect to see much space combat going on in Shadowrun, but I would imagine that Ares, EVO and Saeder-Krupp at least would have some warships in space (even if they are just modified transports). Delta V and Acceleration are both real important, but if someone is getting into combat, heat sinking capabilities become very important, especially if you are using lasers which run very very hot.

-- Aye hence the exposed radiators being a standard design switch. This is an abstraction of the generally more complex radiator requirements from Transhuman Space (and I believe CORPS VDS, I need to re-read that book at some point).

-- Let's conjure some reasons why you would go into space (or teleoperate stuff up there):

* Throw nukes at the bug spirits with relative impunity. If they chase you back, well jokes on them! Ares seems to do this as an experiment (need to find the reference). How they get the nukes there is an interesting question.
* Remove possession. Most possession is impossible or trivially easy to spot (everyone is living in what amounts to an open cargo container). The mana warp also should force any inhabiting spirit to vacate the premises (this is not supported by my reading of the rules, however - there are no notes regarding Inhabitation or Possession in aspected areas. See Street Magic, p. 119-120 for mana voids and p. 118 for Background Count and Magic.
* Local hacks. The quasi-magical wi-fi hacking gives a significant advantage to on-site system intrusion. You would completely bypass the ICE on the uplinks, suffer no lag, and could hack local devices that may be just as useful to you as a datastore.
* Mage prison. Too valuable to kill, but too dangerous to have even in a mage-rated supermax? Shoot them into space.
* Planting bugs. Placing nanobugs to get picked up by the station as it orbits is trivial, but anything too large will just be vaporized by the station housekeeping laser (anything paint-flake size and up). Carrying some surveillance devices (or picking up ones already there) is a job for shadowrunners playing inconspicuous inspectors, tourists, visiting corporate honchos, or maintenance people. NOT a job for the resident troll wielding a mohawk and assault cannon though.
* Sabotage. This could be as simple as releasing a modified fungus that is resistant to the current control mechanisms, infecting yourself with next years flu early before the crew gets their shots, or ensuring the station gets 11mm stem bolts when they need 10mm.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Daylen
post Jun 19 2010, 10:01 PM
Post #13


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,424
Joined: 7-December 09
From: Freedonia
Member No.: 17,952



QUOTE (Tzeentch @ Jun 19 2010, 08:32 PM) *
-- Wastelands aside, there doesn't appear to be a lot for shadowrunners to do in space right now. The whole concept of "street criminals hired to pull off a heist on the International Space Station" doesn't sound practical does it? Because that's what you would be doing.


I'd go for running a heist or other more nefarious op for Ares against Evo on Mars.

or perhaps getting a job to cause one of S-Ks installations out at L1 to destabilize and fall into the sun.

Not all of us play street criminals.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Faraday
post Jun 19 2010, 10:05 PM
Post #14


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,026
Joined: 13-February 10
Member No.: 18,155



QUOTE (Daylen @ Jun 19 2010, 02:46 PM) *
1. Missiles are dang nice and compact. They would probably remain the workhorse of killing in space.

They're good at shortish ranges, but you can actually target and destroy them with point defense systems. Rail gun and laser fire...not so much.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Tzeentch
post Jun 19 2010, 10:21 PM
Post #15


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 746
Joined: 26-February 02
Member No.: 459



QUOTE (Faraday @ Jun 19 2010, 10:05 PM) *
They're good at shortish ranges, but you can actually target and destroy them with point defense systems. Rail gun and laser fire...not so much.

-- The railgun armatures could be small missiles themselves - getting a boost before using their own maneuvering rockets to do some trick moves. But solid slugs have the advantage in that they are difficult to 'shoot down' (probably targeted ablation to knock it off course, vaporizing an object is not necessary most of the time).

-- Small spacecraft (Autonomous Kill Vehicles in TS parlance) can fulfill most of the functions of traditional missiles (think Tomahawk rather than TOW). Missiles like in anime that perform those crazy Itano Circus swarms are unlikely.

Space Weapons, Earth Wars
-- BTW, as a brief aside the Shadowrun version of "Thor" shots is ................. well I have no idea where they got the idea that Thor was about agglomerating space junk and shooting it from a massdriver (Target: Wastelands, p. 79). There has been serious work done on this concept and I'll just link the RAND study on this (includes dropping really large things and not just "rods from god"). The most viable concept are penetrator rods with small rocket boosters to kick them out of a LEO "shed" and provide course correction before entering the atmosphere. Shooting a "ball of slag" down is going to present so much surface area that most of it will burn up.

-- I need to update the links, but I have a decent selection of sites on my website as well.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ghremdal
post Jun 19 2010, 10:36 PM
Post #16


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 96
Joined: 24-November 09
Member No.: 17,900



QUOTE
-- At long range and probably with zero human intervention beyond pushing a button to authorize weapons free. Maneuvering would be computer controlled and consist of small microburns to subtly adjust their path in order to cause beam weapons at light-second ranges to miss, or railguns at much shorter ranges (beyond a few dozen kilometers). This is basically Evasive Driving (SR4A, p. 170).


I don't think you should get the ability for evasive driving against c speed weapons. There is no reaction time for anything.

What you can do is what I style a bumble bee flight pattern. Make slight oscillations along your trajectory that are of an erratic nature so to confuse the attacker with beam weapons. If that is what you meant by evasive driving then I agree with you.....though am of the feeling that it should be called something differently. Evasive driving seems to imply to me a reaction of sorts, while this sort of piloting would be preemptive measures.

I think we are aiming at the same thing though, just expressing ourselves a little differently.

QUOTE
-- In space, there is nowhere to hide smile.gif It's doable to armor spaceccraft of course (even sloping the armor like a tank) but that adds mass and raises your operating costs + reduces your acceleration + reduces your overall delta-V available.
-- I'll note the Endymion gets Armor 13, Body 19) = 8 automatic hits on its Body Test. This may look high, but Shadowrun has REALLY ZANY numbers for Body/Armor of large vehicles. Compare to the Partisan submarine for example (Arsenal, p. 111). So spaceraft will not necessarily explode into vapor at the merest touch of a free


Well compared to the Winter Systems ship laser of 16P (-half armor) the Endymion ship will probably last no more then 2 shots. So you will still have time to scream. Just in space no one hears you scream.......unless you are a space marine (oh why is there only one season of that show (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif) )

QUOTE
-- Wastelands aside, there doesn't appear to be a lot for shadowrunners to do in space right now. The whole concept of "street criminals hired to pull off a heist on the International Space Station" doesn't sound practical does it? Because that's what you would be doing.


For that I was thinking for a more of a total retcon of the SR setting. Either by moving the timeline say 100 years forward, or just saying that by 2072 metahumanity has colonized the solar system from Venus to the Saturn rings, with several quasi terraformed moons/planets and dozens of space stations....though we might be getting out of the SR setting with that.

A reason for that could be that the non awakened people of the Earth sought refuge amongst the stars against what they perceived to be the awakened threat.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Daylen
post Jun 19 2010, 10:46 PM
Post #17


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,424
Joined: 7-December 09
From: Freedonia
Member No.: 17,952



QUOTE (Faraday @ Jun 19 2010, 11:05 PM) *
They're good at shortish ranges, but you can actually target and destroy them with point defense systems. Rail gun and laser fire...not so much.


that's not as easy as it sounds. Contrary to hollywood even modern missiles are fast and accelerate up to that speed really quick. With the way missile guidance and senors have advanced most missiles try to hit their target and large proportion of the destructive force comes from their kinetic energy. In fact alot of missiles are faster, by a huge proportion, than any gun's projectile. Its hard to compete with hypersonic and better velocities.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Daylen
post Jun 19 2010, 10:53 PM
Post #18


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,424
Joined: 7-December 09
From: Freedonia
Member No.: 17,952



QUOTE (Ghremdal @ Jun 19 2010, 11:36 PM) *
For that I was thinking for a more of a total retcon of the SR setting. Either by moving the timeline say 100 years forward, or just saying that by 2072 metahumanity has colonized the solar system from Venus to the Saturn rings, with several quasi terraformed moons/planets and dozens of space stations....though we might be getting out of the SR setting with that.

I liked the way Niven had his with the asteroids and small moons being colonized instead of planets. Much easier to be a small frontier miner in the asteroid belt than on a planet where it would be about impossible to sell things to earth.

Oh and the moon should always be colonized. That way there are lunies in the setting.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Daylen
post Jun 19 2010, 10:56 PM
Post #19


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,424
Joined: 7-December 09
From: Freedonia
Member No.: 17,952



QUOTE (Tzeentch @ Jun 19 2010, 11:21 PM) *
-- Small spacecraft (Autonomous Kill Vehicles in TS parlance) can fulfill most of the functions of traditional missiles (think Tomahawk rather than TOW). Missiles like in anime that perform those crazy Itano Circus swarms are unlikely.

I'm not sure what you mean by Itano Circus, but as far as swarms... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_Kill_Vehicle
I even heard some rumors that it might get funded again.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
hermit
post Jun 19 2010, 11:19 PM
Post #20


The King In Yellow
*********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 6,922
Joined: 26-February 05
From: JWD
Member No.: 7,121



QUOTE

A high-end cyber mercenary, a mad illusionist, an international tech fixer with far-ranging worldwide connections, an ex military hero remote controlled by a powerful DEUS-like AI and a renewed crack hacker brought back from the brink by way of magic superior AI allknowingness are NOT street level operatives. Neither is Neuromancer a good example of the street level magic noir style SR4 advocates AT ALL. Motoko Kusanagi is more street level than that.

It REALLY would be nice if people who bring up Neuromancer as an example of street level play would actually read beyond the first few chapters.

Also, Neuromancer assumes a lot more activity in space. More like 2001. The setting is hard to compare directly.


That said, Very nice ideas, Tzeeench. Sadly, this is much better done with SR3 and it\\\'S ship fighting rules, which work notably better with large vehicles than SR4A whch is designed around street level magic noir and not Battle of Midway in Outer space, despite a number of glaring weirdnesses (like the rigged Nimitz easily dodging a pistol fired at it midship sideways at point blank range). Maybe taking ideas from that system would work better than space stations with body of 80+.

QUOTE
Corps have habitats in space, they\\\'re probably building factories, energy collectors, mining the lunar surface to say nothing of the mars colonization attempts. If I had to make a guess, I would bet that people are still using Hohmann transfers to reach mars, probably around 2-3 months depending on the window.

The Yamatetsu Mars expedition took around a year to reach their destination.

QUOTE
I don\\\'t really expect to see much space combat going on in Shadowrun, but I would imagine that Ares, EVO and Saeder-Krupp at least would have some warships in space (even if they are just modified transports).

What for? To burn funds they could better invest into something that actually turns out profits? They all have Surface-orbit-missiles, earthbound or airborne laser platforms, and mist have an armed habitat. What would they need space warships for? They can smack anything out of earth space they want, and the moon or Mars are too far away and too thinly populated to warrant any kind of armament going on beyond having a few suborbital transports ready who can release nukes and/or mount a laser module they can use to zap lunar/martian installations.

QUOTE
There\\\'s lots of opportunity for travel between Earth and the Moon, and I would imagine that most of the megacorps have research facilities in freefall or on the lunar surface. Space would be an interesting place to study dangerous paracritters since it is an environment where they would be unable to use their critter powers.

Not so much opportunity beyond supply runs for the installations and the occasional scientific or exploratory probe, if you ask me. Also, what\\\'s the point of studying critters that go boom as soon as you leave the Gaiasphere because they\\\'re dual natured and cannot switch off the warp they get into, like a mage can?

And there are already four Lagrange stations, two of them derelict and up for anyone\\\'s picking. No nescessity to build new stuff that\\\'s prohibitively expensive when you can recycle old stuff for a fraction of the price, eh?

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Daylen
post Jun 19 2010, 11:34 PM
Post #21


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,424
Joined: 7-December 09
From: Freedonia
Member No.: 17,952



QUOTE (hermit @ Jun 20 2010, 12:19 AM) *
It REALLY would be nice if people who bring up Neuromancer as an example of street level play would actually read beyond the first few chapters.

reading more than a few chapters of a book? CRAZY TALK!!!!
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
hermit
post Jun 19 2010, 11:47 PM
Post #22


The King In Yellow
*********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 6,922
Joined: 26-February 05
From: JWD
Member No.: 7,121



QUOTE
* Throw nukes at the bug spirits with relative impunity. If they chase you back, well jokes on them! Ares seems to do this as an experiment (need to find the reference). How they get the nukes there is an interesting question.

Source must be either corp download or target wastelands, since that is where the writeup of AresSpace happened. Also, Ares decied on a different approach to the bugs, more of a Wayland-Yutani than a Starship Troopers type.

QUOTE
some of the freelancers hinted at really cool things related to this due to the rules.

I\\\'m intrigued. Care to elaborate? If that means my remark on paracritters is rendered wrong, I\\\'m not too unhappy about that either.

QUOTE
* Mage prison. Too valuable to kill, but too dangerous to have even in a mage-rated supermax? Shoot them into space.

Definitly, but this can be done in LEO too. Much easier to maintain to boot.

QUOTE
They\\\'re good at shortish ranges, but you can actually target and destroy them with point defense systems. Rail gun and laser fire...not so much.

On the countrary, Railgun fire can just as easily be deflected by hitting it with enough energy to sufficiently alter it\\\'s course. Should work almost as well as missile destruction (which wouldn\\\'t mean the missile to go poof anyway, but tot urn it at a rain of shrapnel moving at impressive speed towards you; hope your ship\\\'s casing is up to the impact). Destroying the guidance and alterig course would probably work better for a missile.

QUOTE
-- The railgun armatures could be small missiles themselves - getting a boost before using their own maneuvering rockets to do some trick moves.

Inertia is working against that.

QUOTE
-- Small spacecraft (Autonomous Kill Vehicles in TS parlance) can fulfill most of the functions of traditional missiles (think Tomahawk rather than TOW).

The Ares Heimdall should be a good template.

QUOTE
The most viable concept are penetrator rods with small rocket boosters to kick them out of a LEO \\\"shed\\\" and provide course correction before entering the atmosphere. Shooting a \\\"ball of slag\\\" down is going to present so much surface area that most of it will burn up.

That was, to my understanding, the original design of the Thor system, based on discarded designs from the Regan era.

QUOTE
For that I was thinking for a more of a total retcon of the SR setting. Either by moving the timeline say 100 years forward, or just saying that by 2072 metahumanity has colonized the solar system from Venus to the Saturn rings, with several quasi terraformed moons/planets and dozens of space stations....though we might be getting out of the SR setting with that.

A reason for that could be that the non awakened people of the Earth sought refuge amongst the stars against what they perceived to be the awakened threat.

More power to you to write up your own system, but that is a concept that works worse with SR than including Cthulhutech D-Engines and hybrid Horror/Cyber mecha called Engels.

I would really prefer a low-tech approach to Shadowrun Space. High SciFi is a dime a dozen out there, and most of it I personally consider stale and boring after n+2 iterations in popular fiction. And it always assumes infinite ressources, a concept that clashes very, very badly with SR\\\'s world.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Daylen
post Jun 19 2010, 11:52 PM
Post #23


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,424
Joined: 7-December 09
From: Freedonia
Member No.: 17,952



QUOTE (hermit @ Jun 20 2010, 12:47 AM) *
I would really prefer a low-tech approach to Shadowrun Space. High SciFi is a dime a dozen out there, and most of it I personally consider stale and boring after n+2 iterations in popular fiction. And it always assumes infinite ressources, a concept that clashes very, very badly with SR\\\'s world.

YES.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Daylen
post Jun 19 2010, 11:57 PM
Post #24


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,424
Joined: 7-December 09
From: Freedonia
Member No.: 17,952



oh and as far as a missile with a rail gun in it... besides the engineering impossibility; one should consider that it is much more effective to simply have a detonation accelerate tungsten rods at the target as is done with current tech. No need to over fictionalize technology just for the sake of using the impossible.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
hermit
post Jun 20 2010, 12:25 AM
Post #25


The King In Yellow
*********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 6,922
Joined: 26-February 05
From: JWD
Member No.: 7,121



QUOTE
oh and as far as a missile with a rail gun in it... besides the engineering impossibility; one should consider that it is much more effective to simply have a detonation accelerate tungsten rods at the target as is done with current tech. No need to over fictionalize technology just for the sake of using the impossible.

I think the idea was to fire a missile from a railgun, as a 'first stage' kind of acceleration, so the missile can save on weight and still be as fast as if it had another booster stage. Kind of like a miniature mass driver type space launch system, only in space and with missiles.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

14 Pages V   1 2 3 > » 
Reply to this topicStart new topic

 



RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 29th March 2024 - 01:19 PM

Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.