Activesofts and Technical Skills Question Options

[Lanlaorn]

Hello, quick question, page 330 of the SR4 20th Anniversary edition says:

Activesofts replicate skills that require physical activity,
including all Combat, Physical, Social, Technical, and Vehicle
skills (but not Magic or Resonance skills).

And then in the Skills chapter under Technical all the Hacking and Cybercombat, etc. skills are of course included in that category. So, this seems quite clear but just to be sure, I can purchase activesofts of Hacking, Computer, etc. and load them into my skillwires to gain Hacking skill? And this is still true in VR where you don't use your meatspace body?

I'm creating a Mage with hacking gear but no skill to back it, originally I was going to just use agents to do things but this seems like a better idea, if hackers look down on using mooks their opinions on "performance enhanced" skills would be terrific (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

If it sounds wrong or too good to be true, it *is* wrong or too good to be true. They certainly don't work in VR; *maybe* you could argue AR uses.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

If it sounds wrong or too good to be true, it *is* wrong or too good to be true. They certainly don't work in VR; *maybe* you could argue AR uses.

Why wouldn't they? You can use magically augmented skills in the Matrix (even in VR), why could you not use Skillwire augmented skills in the Matrix?

Skills are just that, whether they are natural, magically augmented or skillwire augmented... If a roll calls for a skill, and you have access to it, then you get to use it...

Keep the Faith

[Lanlaorn]

Well it's not really any more too good to be true than gaining pistol or automechanic skills really, but yea the VR is what I'm really curious about. AR clearly is RAW since it's a "physical action".

The whole thing seems weird IMO since all the technical skills should be knowledge softs and the social skills BTL personafixes only. But I imagine that's for balance purposes, so you require skillwires and the 10k nuyen per rating for those skills rather than just simsense and relatively cheap programming to instantly make you a better face.

[Yerameyahu]

It specifically says 'physical'. The wires move your muscles for you, they don't teach you the skill. There's zero way they could function in VR.

They're not 'augmented' either; activesofts wholly replace the skill.

And yes, skillwires are effing weird. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Creepy. I mean, they take over your body. :/

What I wanna know is how Arcana can be an Activesoft (Unwired, p.128). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[Heath Robinson]

Skillsofts
A skillsoft program is a programmed/recorded skill—as in, a person’s knowledge and memory (including “muscle memory”). When used in conjunction with the proper hardware or cyberware, skillsofts allow users to know and do things they never otherwise learned.

Your Skillwire System has a DNI, just like the one that Knowsofts and Linguasofts need to operate. There is no reason that the Activesofts cannot also contain a Knowsoft (which is cheaper than an Activesoft) for the skill in question. There's no point having the reflexes of gunslinger if you don't know how to use the sights, right?

[Yerameyahu]

It's true, the Activesofts would need tons of expert systems to make them work. But, skillwires specifically say they control your muscles *for* you. I didn't write it.

Incidentally, you're quoting the general heading of all skillsofts: active, know, and lingua. There's no reason that the entire section applies fully to Activesofts.

[SkepticInc]

$_imon$ez:
Activesofts cover any skill that is more than a database of information and formulas. The simrig needed to make them work taps into the Central Nervous System (CNS) so it can pick up on somatic sensory input including proprioreceptors (the nerves that tell your cerebellum [hind brain] where all your bits are). A skill like Hacking makes great use of hot sim, and engages all of your motor skills while blocking your bodies ability to move (much like the paralysis you get while dreaming), and thus takes an Activesoft program to run it, rather than a Knowsoft.
$_imoff::

--$_imon$ez is an open source [Knowsoft] with the Personality program modification.

[SkepticInc]

Alternately, I prefer to use the Knowsoft and attach it to a feedback suit so I can use the cheaper Knowsoft and get at least the {1/2[Attribute + Knowledge]} dicepool, and then use Edge with those dice on the actual roll.

[Yerameyahu]

Weird. They should describe skillwires correctly, then. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Still not sure what 'motor skills' being engaged has to do with hacking, but oh well.

[Heath Robinson]

It's true, the Activesofts would need tons of expert systems to make them work. But, skillwires specifically say they control your muscles *for* you. I didn't write it.

I don't see how having a DNI contradicts the statement that Skillwires control your muscles directly. How do you think the 'ware receives the command to start a particular motion if it doesn't have a channel of communication with your brain?

Incidentally, you're quoting the general heading of all skillsofts: active, know, and lingua. There's no reason that the entire section applies fully to Activesofts.

So you'd rather Activesofts made no sense? It's stated quite clearly that all Technical skills can be chipped, and that slotting an activesoft gives you the activesoft's rating in that skill. There is no distinction between skill uses that are purely physical, partially physical and partially mental, and purely mental in the rules. Therefore, an activesoft lets you use a Medicine activesoft to create a diagnostic profile for a patient (a mostly mental activity).

[Caadium]

I had to think about this one for a moment, but I've decided that if any of my players asked to do this, I would probably allow it. As I see it, skillwires/skillsofts aren't just your body doing things it hasn't been trained to do while your mind sits there and wonders how (a la Jason Bourne kicking ass and such in the first book). But rather, it is tied into your consciousness as you choose when and how to operate them. The pistol soft doesn't just shoot people when you grab a gun, but rather allows you to be competent at something you've no reason to be competent at. Taking this a step further, your mind is still pulling from its resources; natural or technological like an attack program, firewall rating, or even a skillsoft. You jacked a soft that gives you the knowledge of computers, you still get to pull from that as your mind responds to its input. However, I'd like to add, that this item would not be commercially available. Thats tantamount to a company giving you the tools and know-how to break their own copyrights and such. This would be a black market item, purchased from street coders; purchase at your own risk.

Of course, this is just at my table, your table may see it differently.

Now, this gets really interesting when I think of two things related to the concept:

1. Buggy skillwires/softs that do in fact react as described above. You slot pistols, you start shooting like mad. Not sure if this would be buggy ware, or a bad soft (virus corrupted or something so you couldn't get it out), but its starting to sound like a fun plot device. I enjoy using things that aren't working properly as a reason to get runners into deep doo-doo.

2. Technomancers with Biowires. Using the idea that a soft can be used for computer skills, then in theory a techno with biowires could thread up, or learn at a discounted karma price, 'normal' hacking skills (instead of their TM versions). Not sure how I feel about this. So far, nobody in my group wants to play a TM, so I'll cross that bridge IF I come to it.

[HugeC]

The only reason Hacking and Computer are 'active' skills is for game balance. The idea that you need skillwires to interface with a computer neurally is kinda silly.

[Sengir]

If a vehicle repair skillsoft is supposed to work it can't just control how your muscles hold a screwdriver, it also has provide the knowledge of which tool you need to pick up and where to use that tool. So knowledge of how to do stuff is obviously part of a skillsoft.

[sabs]

The only reason Hacking and Computer are 'active' skills is for game balance. The idea that you need skillwires to interface with a computer neurally is kinda silly.

I've actually been thinking of rules that world work for a modified skillwire.

Basically, it would only work in VR, so amazingly "The Matrix Like" where all of a sudden, you're like.. I know kung fu. And you jump into an anthromorph military drone (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Especially for riggers, you need infiltration skills, and melee combat skills, dodge etc.
I know tons of people who have amazing reflexes in computer games, where those same reflexes just wouldn't work in a real setting.

Sure, you know how to make your character in Halo 3 sneak around, you know how to interpret the video feeds, etc, but your body has no such skills, it doesn't mean you have the muscle memory for it.

I could see hackers/Riggers having skills that they buy for slightly cheaper that only work in VR.
OR, having a 'activsoft neural interface' that gives you the skills you need to interact with VR and use those skills.

Make it an implant only, that costs essense (but not as much as a skilwire)
That lets you slot activsofts for use in VR only.
With the same max rating of 4.
It would have things like:
Cybercombat, Gunnery, Dodge, Melee skills, martial arts, piloting, etc.
It would be kinda freaky, because basically you're running an agent/pilot/ai in your brain.. muahahaha.

[Yerameyahu]

Heath, my point is precisely that activesofts *already* don't make sense. The Wires say that they control your *muscles* separate of your brain, whereas the inclusion of Technical skills, esp. Hacking in VR, show that that's wrong. All I'm asking is that these match, either one way, or the other.

[DireRadiant]

Skillwires are both the Input and Output mode for ActiveSofts.

In the case of using the ActiveSoft in VR, the Skillwires are providing the Input, but the output instead of "muscles" are whatever your DNI is running in VR.

Skillwires are Cyberware, they include DNI. They aren't a set of wires that walk around doing stuff by themselves. They interact with the user.

[Yerameyahu]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) That's what it should say, then. The way it's described, they're only the 'output', and they steal whatever they need from the brain (via DNI, of course) to do it, like some creepy Agent partially rigging your body. I guess said creepy Agent just redirects its commands to VR instead when required.

Now that that's settled, *should* a GM have skillwires work in VR? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Probably not a balance issue, so I guess so.

[Lanlaorn]

Regarding balance issues, Skillwires + Hacking activesoft is strictly inferior to an Agent so I personally don't see the harm in it.

On one hand you have 8,000 nuyen, 0.8 essence (Skillwires) + 40,000 nuyen (Activesoft) + 3,000 nuyen (Personalized program option) for a total of 51,000 nuyen, 0.8 essence (123,000 nuyen 0.4 essence Deltaware) for 5 Hacking skill.

On the other hand you have 12,500 nuyen (Rating 5) + 5,000 (+20% for Unrestricted as per Unwired) Agent who can do far more than just Hack and also has +2 Initiative Passes standard.

[Yerameyahu]

Right. I didn't run the numbers, but it seemed clearly not a problem. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[LurkerOutThere]

Honestly SR4A did everything in it's power to kill skillwires as a viable option.

Your better off saving those points/money and putting the points into edge.

[Yerameyahu]

I dunno. Attribute is usually a bigger contributor than skill, and you can pirate any program, right? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) For me, it's usually worth it just to get rank 1 and avoid defaulting. Obviously, you need skill ranks to avoid limiting some kinds of bonuses, but many bonuses don't need that.

It's also pretty clearly one of those 'setting' elements that isn't designed for crimercenaries, but has been adapted by them. The real use is given as short-circuiting education for your employees.

[Lanlaorn]

Oh and on the topic of Agents, a quick question: How does their rating and payload work exactly? The book states that the programs loaded into an Agent's payload are "limited by its rating". This is ridiculously ambigous to me. Is it:

A. An Agent can hold an AMOUNT of programs equal to its rating (i.e. rating 3 Agent can only run 3 programs). These programs themselves can be of any rating, obviously performing based on the node's response as usual.

B. An Agent can hold infinite programs in its payload but the RATINGS of those programs are capped by it's rating (similar to how a node's response caps them).

C. An Agent can hold a number of programs such that the sum of their ratings is equal or less than its rating (e.g. Agent 5 could carry Analyze 3 + Edit 2 or Attack 4 + Armor 1). I don't think it's this one but it's a valid interpretation.

Oh, also, how do Autosofts work for Agents? Are they considered a program that is actively running, that is, in the Agent's payload and counting towards a node's processor limit?

This post has been edited by Lanlaorn: Jun 21 2010, 06:35 PM

[Yerameyahu]

Agents definitely can't run programs higher than their own rating, which is what that sentence means. Programs they run are limited in quantity by the node the agent is on, as well (Response hits).

AFAIK, Agents' payload are limited in Rating *and* quantity by the rating of the Agent. This is more like a rule of thumb, because it's really the local node's response hit (Processor Limit) that will matter. It's not the sum, though. I'll have to check, but I *thought* it was more like (Rating) programs of up to (Rating) Rating. I'll look in the book, one sec. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Autosofts are just Programs that Agents and Pilots run.

[SkepticInc]

Virtual Reality is discussed in the basic book and described as overriding your CNS, which I would argue means that skills like Hacking have a physical component that isn't generally seen due to the induced paralysis.
Basic 228: "Your physical perceptions in VR are overridden by the Matrix’s sensory information", "As a safety precaution, sim mods override your motor functions while you are fully immersed in VR"

Skillsofts are descibed as skills that require memory and movements, such as typing or the full body immersion in VR where your avatar is running around with a Black Hammer program that looks like a bat with a nail in it.
Skillsofts Basic 320: "A skillsoft program is a programmed/recorded skill— as in, a person’s knowledge and memory (including “muscle memory”).", "Activesofts: Activesofts replicate skills that require physical activity, including all Combat, Physical, Social, Technical, and Vehicle skills"

Unwired says basically the same thing, but makes a point of mentioning ASIST, the technology behind simsense, as the part of the activesofts that make skillwires not creepy puppet software.
Unwired 193: "Activesofts trigger activity not only in the metahuman brain, but also the neuromuscular system."
"For this reason, activesofts also require skillwires (p. 335, SR4), neuromuscular controllers that activate muscle memory in conjunction with the ASIST signals activating brain activity."
"By introducing ASIST signals that manipulated the cerebellum and cerebral motor cortex, the brain understood the neuromuscular signals and cooperated, leading to fine motor control and the ability to reproduce skills accurately."

So there you have it, Active skills are skills that require movement, or the same neuromuscular activation as movement while under VR.