Invisibility vs Improved Invisibility, And Astral Perception Options

[cndblank]

I know this has likely come up before....

In SR 4, I have a question about the Invisibility spell (and not the improved Invisibility spell).


So since Invisibility is a Mana spell and makes a person not see the subject of the spell, would it also work against an Astrally perceiving spellcaster or dual natured creature assuming they failed to resist?
That would include the aura of the invisibility spell on the target of the spell.


What about a patrolling spirit who is on the astral plane?

Thanks

[Deadmannumberone]

This spell makes the subject more difficult to detect by normal visual senses (including low-light, thermographic, and other senses that rely on the visual spectrum). The subject is completely tangible and detectable by the other senses (hearing, smell, touch, etc.). Her aura is still visible to astral perception.

Note the emphasis.

[Lanlaorn]

A Mage with Invisibility on would actually be more visible to any Astral observer, their natural aura would be shining brightly and then the Invisibility spell itself has an aura broadcasting your presence.

[Mordinvan]

A Mage with Invisibility on would actually be more visible to any Astral observer, their natural aura would be shining brightly and then the Invisibility spell itself has an aura broadcasting your presence.

Yes although I really don't understand how that could work. Your mind should refuse to let you know the person is there no matter how you're trying to detect them.

[CeeJay]

Your mind should refuse to let you know the person is there no matter how you're trying to detect them.

No, that's not what Invisibility is doing. The spell just makes the target undetectable by sight. Period. That's all.

You can still hear, smell, touch or astrally perceive the target, the target still detectable by ultrasound or radar.

If you want a spell that makes you undetectable by more senses than sight, you have to design your own spell.

-CJ

[PatB]

No, that's not what Invisibility is doing. The spell just makes the target undetectable by sight.

Note that [i]sight[i] and [i]Astral Perception[i] are two different things and that's why a blind person (aka a ghoul) can still [i]see[i] via Astral Perception (or dual nature or astral projection).

To quote the SR4A book on page 208:

Though mana-based illusions can be created on the astral plane, their magical auras give them away as illutions to anyone who makes a successful Assensing Test (see [i]Astral Perception[i], p. 191). Illusions cannot fool assensing to disguise or create auras

[cndblank]

Thanks all!

[DeathStrobe]

What would happen if you had a adept who is astrally perceiving and a mage who astrally projects and follows around the adept. If the mage was casting invisibility on the adept from the astral would the adept be invisible?

[Hand-E-Food]

What would happen if you had a adept who is astrally perceiving and a mage who astrally projects and follows around the adept. If the mage was casting invisibility on the adept from the astral would the adept be invisible?

That sounds logical.

[Cain]

What would happen if you had a adept who is astrally perceiving and a mage who astrally projects and follows around the adept. If the mage was casting invisibility on the adept from the astral would the adept be invisible?

Nope. The spell might make the adept invisible to normal sight, but the aura of the spell would still be a beacon in astral space. It's like trying to go around invisible while holding a bright light.

[Ol' Scratch]

As has already been mentioned: Astral Perception is not Vision. They're two completely separate and distinct senses. Their only relationship is an editorial one; it's easier for humans to describe things visually than it is to describe a sense that none of us have ever experienced. They're otherwise as related as hearing and touch are (both of which, incidentally, are used to describe astral perception, too).

Going on about spell auras and all that hullabaloo is superfluous. Invisibility doesn't defeat astral perception for exactly the same reason it doesn't defeat smelling. Astral perception is quite literally a sixth sense.

The referenced rules earlier in the thread (regarding spell auras) are reasons why illusions can't be created to defeat astral perception in the same way that Invisibility can defeat vision or Stealth can defeat hearing. It would be the equivalence of an Invisibility spell that makes you glow, or a Stealth spell that clangs bells. Those same rules do not mean that astral perception and vision are the same sense.

[cndblank]

It would seem that if an Astral Invisibility spell (Mana naturally) was developed (or rediscovered) and a person had both Invisibility and Astral Invisibility cast on them (so that dual natured creatures couldn't sense them with either sense.) then they would be covered. And the Astral Invisibility would keep any one failing to resist from also seeing the spell auras. Why, because Mana based illusions affect the mind.

And while in SR4A it says " Illusions cannot fool assensing to disguise or create auras.", we know initiates can mask their auras.

And in Digital Grimoire, False Impression and Manascape can at least disguise an aura.

Certainly Astral Perception seems to be a multi-sensory based on False Impression and Manascape.
I expect making an aura disappear must be too complex an illusion to pull off.


SR4A

Obvious illusions are used solely for entertainment and cannot
fool subjects into believing they are real. Realistic illusions seem completely
real. Single-sense illusions affect only one sense. Full sensory illusions
affect all senses. Though mana-based illusions can be created
on the astral plane, their magical auras give them away as illusions to
anyone who makes a successful Assensing Test (see Astral Perception,
p. 191). Illusions cannot fool assensing to disguise or create auras.
Mana Illusions: Mana-based illusion spells affect the mind and
are ineffective against technological viewing systems like cameras.
Mana illusions are resisted by Willpower + Counterspelling (if any).
Some mana illusions affect the target’s senses directly, others affect
the senses of anyone perceiving the subject of the spell (though the
spellcaster is not affected by her own spell).




From Digital Grimoire

ILLUSION SPELLS
False Impression (Realistic, Multi-Sense)
Type: M • Range: LOS • Duration: S • DV: (F ÷ 2) – 1
Manascape (Realistic, Multi-Sense, Area)
Type: M • Range: LOS (A) • Duration: S • DV: (F ÷ 2) + 1
These spells create illusions designed to feed false information
to the magical senses of passers-by. While it cannot create auras or
astral forms where there are none, it can change the impressions
gained from Assensing, the Psychometry or Sensing metamagic,
the Astral Window spell, the Magic Sense adept power, and
other magical senses. False Impression affects a single sustained
or quickened spell, aura, astral form, or the like, while Manascape
can affect an entire area, changing the impression of background
count, multiple auras, astral forms, etc.

[Ol' Scratch]

That's the thing. You can't create an Astral Invisibility spell because of the limitation. Even if the spell did effectively erase your aura from astral perception, the spell's own aura would be painfully obvious... and quite noticeable since it would just sort of be floating there on its own. There's no way to hide a spell's aura through sorcery.

[cndblank]

If I have a spell that can "cloud" the mind so that someone can not see a living human aura in astral space than do you really think covering the aura of that spell is going to be any problem at all?

Personally I like the idea that no one has developed an spell advanced enough to hide a living aura.

But if they ever did and could pull off the "No See" my aura, than they could also pull the "No See" my spell's aura.

[Yerameyahu]

Yeah, but what spell would stop *that* spell's aura? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Cain]

Masking isn't the same thing as invisibility. You're making your aura look like another aura, that's it. You can't erase your aura from existence through Masking.

[Lucyfersam]

If memory serves, the critter power Alienation used to prevent even Astral Perception, as it made it impossible for anyone to perceive the subject in any way, but that power has long since been removed from the game, likely due to difficulties in defining exactly how it worked...

[cndblank]

Masking isn't the same thing as invisibility. You're making your aura look like another aura, that's it. You can't erase your aura from existence through Masking.

You are not erasing your aura from existence.

You are pulling the "These are not the droids you are looking for" trick on minds weak enough to be effected by the spell (if it existed).



And I figure perceiving Astral space is a very unique experience for for everyone which is why it is impossible to do.

And why spells that do disguise an aura like Manascape are Multi-Sense.

[Cain]

You are not erasing your aura from existence.

You are pulling the "These are not the droids you are looking for" trick on minds weak enough to be effected by the spell (if it existed).



And I figure perceiving Astral space is a very unique experience for for everyone which is why it is impossible to do.

And why spells that do disguise an aura like Manascape are Multi-Sense.

I don't know of the manascape spell. Is it a new one?

Anyways, Masking isn't a Jedi Mind Trick, since it works on wards and non-minds. It's a disguise, nothing more.

[TheOOB]

Manascape lets you create an illusion in astral space, it's in digital grimore. I believe you can still see the spell aura, but everything there is hidden. don't have the pdf with me.

[Deadmannumberone]

You are not erasing your aura from existence.

You are pulling the "These are not the droids you are looking for" trick on minds weak enough to be effected by the spell (if it existed).

A spell like that would be a manipulation spell similar to control thoughts.

[cndblank]

Manascape lets you create an illusion in astral space, it's in digital grimore. I believe you can still see the spell aura, but everything there is hidden. don't have the pdf with me.

No if you fail to resist the spell you see the illusionary aura instead of the real one (Because why create an false impression for an aura if you are not going to also cover the spell creating the false impression).

ILLUSION SPELLS
False Impression (Realistic, Multi-Sense)
Type: M • Range: LOS • Duration: S • DV: (F ÷ 2) – 1
Manascape (Realistic, Multi-Sense, Area)
Type: M • Range: LOS (A) • Duration: S • DV: (F ÷ 2) + 1
These spells create illusions designed to feed false information
to the magical senses of passers-by. While it cannot create auras or
astral forms where there are none, it can change the impressions
gained from Assensing, the Psychometry or Sensing metamagic,
the Astral Window spell, the Magic Sense adept power, and
other magical senses. False Impression affects a single sustained
or quickened spell, aura, astral form, or the like, while Manascape
can affect an entire area, changing the impression of background
count, multiple auras, astral forms, etc.

[cndblank]

A spell like that would be a manipulation spell similar to control thoughts.

You have a point, but by that definition all Mana based illusions are manipulation spells.

Which I do admit is not be far off.


From SR4
"Mana Illusions: Mana-based illusion spells affect the mind and
are ineffective against technological viewing systems like cameras."

[Deadmannumberone]

You have a point, but by that definition all Mana based illusions are manipulation spells.

Which would not be far off.


From SR4
"Mana Illusions: Mana-based illusion spells affect the mind and
are ineffective against technological viewing systems like cameras."

Mana based illusions make them sense something different, mental manipulation spells change how they act or think.

[cndblank]

Mana based illusions make them sense something different, mental manipulation spells change how they act or think.

And a rose by any other name is still a rose.

BTL technology can be used to brain wash individuals and it is based on Simsense technology.



And if you look at the Illusion magic, the two branches work on totally different principles.

One branch is basically mental manipulation to make some one sense something that is not really there while the other branch involves energy manipulation to create free standing "holographs" for want of a better word.


But it is magic so who says it has to make sense.

And just to be clear, I'm only saying that an unresisted Manascape or False Impression spell will also disguise the presence of the spell.