Cyberlimbs + other augmentation, what can and can't be used Options

[Caelwyn]

So if I plan to make a character with cyber skull, torso, arms and legs, are there any hard rules for what can be put in me (before or after) as well as those?

Are there any rules of thumb? Obviously muscle replacement and similar augments don't make sense. What about geneware? I'm guessing most things that affect your nervous system, internal organs, glands, etc should all be fine but what about tailored pheromones?

[Hand-E-Food]

So if I plan to make a character with cyber skull, torso, arms and legs, are there any hard rules for what can be put in me (before or after) as well as those?

Are there any rules of thumb? Obviously muscle replacement and similar augments don't make sense. What about geneware? I'm guessing most things that affect your nervous system, internal organs, glands, etc should all be fine but what about tailored pheromones?

Realise that those six items on their own cost 6.25 essence, making you clinicaly dead. You can overcome this with Alphawear or better.

If you're trying to add bioware on top of this, everything inside your skull and torso still exists. Anything that applies there should be okay, except maybe a skin pocket. Any bioware that improves your body, strength or agility would be useless. Reaction is probably okay.

[JesterZero]

So if I plan to make a character with cyber skull, torso, arms and legs, are there any hard rules for what can be put in me (before or after) as well as those?

Are there any rules of thumb? Obviously muscle replacement and similar augments don't make sense. What about geneware? I'm guessing most things that affect your nervous system, internal organs, glands, etc should all be fine but what about tailored pheromones?

SR4A (p.341) states, "Bodyware that does not have a Capacity rating must be installed directly into the user’s body; it cannot be installed into cyberlimbs. Bodyware with a Capacity rating may be installed in cyberlimbs, costing capacity rather than Essence." Honestly, if you choose to enforce that, then you resolve quite a few issues straight away.

Where things get a touch hinky is the torso and the skull, since those are understood to simply be shells, and not a full-on replacement. Getting a cyber-torso doesn't eliminate your internal organs. Getting a cyber-skull doesn't eliminate your brain (obvious jokes aside). Honestly, it already sounds like you have a very sensible grasp on the idea.

In our group we use a house rule that states that you can have 1-2 cyberlimbs and they'll play nice with anything controversial (you mention muscle replacement for instance), 2-4 reduce the rating of anything controversial by 50% (round down), and 5-6 eliminates the bonuses from anything controversial. I stress that is a house rule however, and we tend to prefer simplified rules as opposed to getting into nitty-gritty details. Your mileage may vary.

To your question regarding tailored pheromones, humans produce pheromones primarily from their skin, specifically the skin's apocrine sebaceous glands. Typically, those are focused around the underarms, nipples (of both sexes), the groin area, the mouth area, the eyes, and the ears. If they still have those areas for the bioware to utilize, it should be fine.

[Yerameyahu]

While there were rules for it in SR3, SR4 doesn't actually address things like bone lacing, dermal plating, muscle replacement, etc., as they interact with limb replacement. Munchkins will argue that anything goes as long as any part of it is outside the limbs, and GMs will tell them to shut up. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) YMMV.

[Caelwyn]

Yeah I didn't expect to be able to start with everything i wanted right away (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I was disappointed that there was nothing as good as type 0 system for cyberware though.

I did have a couple more questions:

1. With averaging attributes due to cyberware, do any and all fractions round up?

2. When using cybersuites with adapsin and biocompatibility i'm assuming the 10% from each don't stack but are handled separately. Is there a way i'm supposed to be doing it other than going to (at times) 5 decimal places?

[Lanlaorn]

I apply the essence bonuses multiplicatively myself since a) that's the most strict interpretation so you can't accidentally build a character others think is too strong and b) all the spreadsheets do it too.

So Biocompatibility and Alphaware would be 0.9*0.8 = 0.72 multiplier, as opposed to an additive 10% off + 20% off is 30% off (0.7 multiplier), although honestly the differences are so small, if your essence was 4.993 I think most everyone would let you count that as 5.0, lol.

[Yerameyahu]

It depends on the specific version you use, and it doesn't seem like the devs really know/agree when writing them. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[toturi]

While there were rules for it in SR3, SR4 doesn't actually address things like bone lacing, dermal plating, muscle replacement, etc., as they interact with limb replacement. Munchkins will argue that anything goes as long as any part of it is outside the limbs, and GMs will tell them to shut up. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) YMMV.

Bone lacing, dermal plating, et al provide their bonuses. There is no rule that forbids or limits their effectiveness with respect to cyberlimbs.

GMs can do what they wish. Including allowing such to stack.

[Yerameyahu]

Yes, that's what I said.

[Mäx]

2. When using cybersuites with adapsin and biocompatibility i'm assuming the 10% from each don't stack but are handled separately. Is there a way i'm supposed to be doing it other than going to (at times) 5 decimal places?

The line from multiple devs is that those all stack, so 10%+10%+20%=40% reduction and that is supposedly included in to Augmentation errata that we still haven't got.

[Caelwyn]

Sweet, that makes calculations a lot easier.

[Ol' Scratch]

As mentioned, 4th edition doesn't have any rules about the compatibility of full-body mods with cyberlimbs. In 3rd edition, both the costs (Essence and nuyen) and effectiveness of such implants were reduced by (I think) 10% per limb, with (still, I think) total degradation after reaching a certain point. I wish my memory was better, but there's no reason at all that those rules can't be cut-and-pasted directly into 4th edition. The only problem is that it makes calculating everything a bit of a hassle, which is likely why they didn't bother carrying it over.

[Stahlseele]

Well, Price and Essence-Cost were lessened by 10% per Cyber-Limb, but effectivity of Stuff only got lessened with the third Limb.
So if you had Dermal-Plating Level one and two Cyber-Limbs, you still got the +1 to Cyber-Body-Value from the Dermal-Plating.
But as soon as you got another Cyber-Limb? Poof went the +1 from the Dermal-Plating, but you still got to pay the left over Essence and Money-Cost.

[JesterZero]

Bone lacing, dermal plating, et al provide their bonuses. There is no rule that forbids or limits their effectiveness with respect to cyberlimbs.

GMs can do what they wish. Including allowing such to stack.

Not necessarily true. Bone lacing and dermal plating (and muscle replacement while we're on the subject) do not have capacity ratings, which means that they cannot be installed in cyberlimbs per p.341 of SR4A. Both a cyberskull and a cybertorso are listed as cyberlimbs on p.343 of SR4A. If the character in question is sporting 2 cyberarms, 2 cyberlegs, a cybertorso, and a cyberskull, then there are no "limbs" left to install bodyware into, unless said bodyware has a capacity rating. The expectation is that rather than buying dermal plating, the player will enhance the body rating of the cyberlimbs, and rather than buying muscle replacement, they will enhance the strength and agility ratings of the cyberlimbs.

I agree that things get into houserule territory when you start mixing and matching cyberlimbs with non-cyberlimbs and trying to determine what does what. Players and GMs should work that out ahead of time. Some tables will go the "everything stacks unless the book says it doesn't" route and some will prefer the "nothing stacks unless the book says it does" route.

And some of that makes for strange occurrences per the core rules (such as a character with all 6 cyberlimbs straight up CANNOT get wired reflexes, but CAN get a synaptic booster). But to a certain degree, that makes perfect sense (since the former requires implants all over the body, whereas the latter basically just modified the spine). Other occurrences make no sense at all (such as muscle augmentation and muscle toner seemingly being completely valid options, even if you have no actual muscles left, which is pretty much an unfortunate side-effect of the fact that none of the bioware has capacity ratings). Or the player who argues that even though he's sporting every other possible cyberlimb, since he DOESN'T have a cyberskull, muscle replacement 4 is perfectly legitimate because his neck muscles are just that spectacular. Again, GMs will arbitrate this according to what they feel is appropriate.

But for both extremes (no cyberlimbs vs. 6 cyberlimbs) the rules are pretty clear. Not entirely sensible at all points, but clear.

[Yerameyahu]

No, you can *always* install in (under) the torso/skull, because those aren't replaced. That's why I said that munchkins would try to argue that the torso gets the muscle replacement, etc. The only thing RAW has a cut and dried ban on would be an implant that goes entirely inside a limb that's no longer there.

[Stahlseele]

a character with all 6 cyberlimbs straight up CANNOT get wired reflexes

Aside from the Essence-Cost, why not? The Implant goes to the brain/brainstem/spinal Cord.
All of which is left completely intact under cyberskull and cybertorso O.o
I don't really care, i'm just bored and curious as to what might be seen as justification for such a ruling.

[JesterZero]

No, you can *always* install in (under) the torso/skull, because those aren't replaced. That's why I said that munchkins would try to argue that the torso gets the muscle replacement, etc. The only thing RAW has a cut and dried ban on would be an implant that goes entirely inside a limb that's no longer there.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "those aren't replaced." For 1.5 essence and 0.75 essence, you're definitely replacing SOMETHING. It's certainly not just a breastplate and a helmet glued to your skin. The fact that the description lists them as "shells" simply means that they do not come with cybernetic organs and cybernetic brains the same way that your cyberleg comes with a cybernetic femur (or whatever). We could sit around and debate exactly how deep the shell goes...subcutaneous? Sub-muscular? Sub-skeletal? Intraskeletal? And you know what? Neither of us could ever be 100% sure because the books just plain doesn't say. But that doesn't mean that nothing makes sense ever again.

Again, they are listed as cyberlimbs on p. 343. P.341 clearly states what CAN and CANNOT be put into a cyberlimb. On the other hand, you CAN apply the cyberlimb enhancements to them, which means that you have legitimate ways to increase their body, agility, and strength, which eliminates the need for most of the cyberware without capacity ratings.

Now I'll grant you that the descriptions could be clearer. I'll grant you that not all possible combinations even make sense here, and that a GM needs to get involved at some point. My point is that there is a clear definition of what a cyberlimb IS, and a clear list of what CAN and CANNOT be installed in a cyberlimb. If all you HAVE is cyberlimbs, it's pretty cut and dry. (*And I propose that we should join forces and beat down the first person to even mention Shiva Arms*)

On the other hand, if you're playing mix-and-match, it's not nearly as clear. Houserule whatever works for your group. I won't be offended. *grins*

[Doc Chase]

I'd say the essence cost is the biggest factor. IIRC, replacing that much of your body with metal doesn't leave much left to install that kind of accelerator.

[Stahlseele]

/mee guesses that now would be a bad time to remind people o the surged cyber zombie centaur with 4 legs and 6 arms . .
initiative stuff is really the only thing that can not be gotten via limb replacement-addons . .

[JesterZero]

Aside from the Essence-Cost, why not? The Implant goes to the brain/brainstem/spinal Cord.
All of which is left completely intact under cyberskull and cybertorso O.o
I don't really care, i'm just bored and curious as to what might be seen as justification for such a ruling.

Yeah, here's the fun part: I (mostly) agree with you (from a common-sense perspective). And if it was my table, I'd work something out with the player.

Argument from crunch: wired reflexes doesn't have a listed capacity rating, which means it cannot be installed in cyberlimbs if all you have is cyberlimbs (again, pp.341-343 of SR4A).

Argument from fluff: ""This highly invasive operation implants a multitude of neural boosters and adrenalin stimulators in strategic locations all over the body..." (p.342). It's hard to make this work if you no longer have any use for adrenalin, or if you no longer have the necessary "all over the body."

Would it help if I mentioned that our table assumes that the cybertorso and cyberskull are surgically implanted at the intraskeletal level, meaning you basically have squishy organs surrounded by cybernetic bones, muscle, and maybe fake skin? Or that we long ago created a synthetic version of the cyberskull which is basically just bone lacing for your head?

Again, I really want to make it clear that I'm not trying to come in here and just stomp on everyone; if it was my game, we'd figure something out. The simplest way is just to point him/her at the synaptic booster. Or just let them buy the thing and handwave it...trying to manage all that essence loss is probably punishment enough. But if I'm put in a position of HAVING to defend RAW, that's how I'd try to do it, since you asked.

[Mäx]

Again, they are listed as cyberlimbs on p. 343. P.341 clearly states what CAN and CANNOT be put into a cyberlimb

But thats not a problem at all, as mucle toner/aug and their ilk do not list anykind of reguiment on where you have to but them (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

[JesterZero]

But thats not a problem at all, as mucle toner/aug and their ilk do not list anykind of reguiment on where you have to but them (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

You're absolutely right. The fact that someone simply forgot to include capacity ratings on the bioware table allows for all kinds of interpretations and loopholes. Technically, you can have really dense bones even if you don't have bones, really toned and augmented muscle even if you don't have muscle, really bulletproof skin even if you don't have skin, etc.

I thought I already pointed out that not everything made sense in a previous post. *grins*

[Mäx]

You're absolutely right. The fact that someone simply forgot to include capacity ratings on the bioware table

Nobody forgot anythink, you cant build somethink that's bilological into somethint mechanical, that pretty obvious.

[Yerameyahu]

The point, again, is that SR3 had rules about this and SR4 doesn't. Either every GM makes separate calls on every little thing, or allows everything; there's no official guidance. That's the whole problem.

Cybertorso and cyberskull are definitely shells, not replacements.

[Deadmannumberone]

It should also be pointed out that cybereyes and cyberears are not included with the cyberskull, and need to be purchased with essence.