[X] My Assistant

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Well technically a rating 4 power focus probably raises some alarms as well so before it is masked you can have trouble, but even without that I'm rolling 16 dice.

And for the record there was no multicasting. The issue was 2 citymasters in a combat turn. I had 4 passes, 4 spells 1 for each pass and 2 citymasters blew up. Most Sams can not pull this off because they don't carry around the artillery to do it. Mages are always have heavy weapons on them.

And yes a Sam can obliterate a guy just as well as a powerbolt. But a Sam can't handle the same range of threats, and the same numbers of threats easily. For the same drain as a powerbolt I can stunball a big ass group of people down. And again this is stuff you have with you at all times. I am sure if a Sam is loaded for biodrone drop bears he can handle a lot as well but how often are you geared up like that? But then when it comes time to help the entire party sneak, the Sam is doing nothing, when we need to probe a mind the Sam is doing nothing, when we need to run at mach 4 the sam is doing nothing, when we need fly across a gap the sam is maybe slowly setting a rope and hook, when we need to poof heal the party nback to full health the Sam ends at first aid skills, and the mages versatility hasn't ended in the pure magic arena yet. And the mage can still hack, shoot, rig etc.

As a Comparison there Shinobi... I once saw a Street Samin our game generate 30p Damage with an Assault Rifle (Was admittedly a phenomenal 11 Successes on the attack roll with Edge Spent (14 Base Dice + Edge of 4 (I think)), but the vehicle had to resist 30p... even with your City Master and bought Soak (of 9) it would have still evaporated with 21p Damage... Even Average Rolls with 36 Dice is still only 12 Successes so even with average Results the Citymaster evaproates as it still has 2 points over its physical Boxes...

1 Pass...

Was it a Fluke... Indeed... But it was still a dead vehicle nonetheless, and not a whole lot different than the result with your Competent Mage example...

As for the versatility of the Mage, they pay for the privelege... Which is okay...

Keep the Faith

[Whipstitch]

As for the versatility of the Mage, they pay for the privelege... Which is okay...

Keep the Faith

I'm not really convinced that they pay enough considering what magic can do. At the end of the day, everyone tallies up to 400 bps, so I would rather expect that other archetypes would match up a li'l better. Magic is expensive, but it provides a lot of value, particularly if you concentrate on things like Task spirits and take more of a backseat runner approach to things.

Anyway, I find it sort of funny that I'm arguing this since I usually play magicians and even as a GM I don't really houserule them any. Most suggestions I hear about it hit me as a touch overkill. I just think it's a li'l weird that Magicians can end up with their fingers in so many pies.

[Yerameyahu]

Sure, but that sam couldn't do that twice per IP.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Part of the issue is the sheer power of First Aid in Shadowrun.

QFT... This is definintely an issue, but unfortunately belongs in a completely seperate topic...

Keep the Faith

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Sure, but that sam couldn't do that twice per IP.

You are right about that... but does he really need to?

Keep the Faith

[Falconer]

Not as simple as that, in a combat spell vs gun comparison:

Firearms: Reaction+Armor+Body + dodge (if you sacrifice your next action)
Magic: Willpower + Counterspelling (which can incude Conterspelling foci)

Firearms: Affected by cover
Magic: Affected by background count

Firearms: Armor>DV, P is now S
Magic: S is less drain than P

Firearms: DV is reduced by 1 per hit
Magic: DV is reduced by 1 per hit, and entirely negated if the resistance check equals or exceeds the number of hits the mage gets.

You forgot 2 critical items in this list...

Magic: Affected by background count, visibility, AND COVER (yes defenders add cover to their resistance rolls).

Firearms: Simple action to fire, 2 shots per pass... spell one per. So yes more 'dice' per bullet, but twice as many bullets.



At the end of the day, it comes down to... you get caught flatfooted by a good gunbunny or a good combat mage and you're dead. There's no problem there. SRun is a game of glass cannons... surprise can and will kill anyone.

[Whipstitch]

I assumed he was listing only the differences there.

[Yerameyahu]

Tymaeus, I only mentioned it because a poster before you said 'the mage is killing 2 citymasters per IP'. It's still a good distinction: your sam did it once, on a fluke, while the mage does it twice per IP, consistently. That's all. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Mäx]

And what is your dicepool for other spells?

a whopping 7 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
But she only has combat spells, atleast currently, she isn't ready yeat.
And for intrested that 16 dice comes from Magic 3 + spelcasting 4 + spec (2)+ mentor bonus (2) + spellcasting focus 5.
That makes her quite nasty at multicasting as 9 of those are bonuses added after slitting pool.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Tymaeus, I only mentioned it because a poster before you said 'the mage is killing 2 citymasters per IP'. It's still a good distinction: your sam did it once, on a fluke, while the mage does it twice per IP, consistently. That's all. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

But the mage did not do it twice per IP, he did it twice in a Turn (he had 4 IP), Big Difference... Using that same logic, The Street Sam could also do it Twice per Turn, or maybe even more... It was indeed a Fluke for the City Master, but the same works for Drones as well... Mage STILL needs 5+ Hits to beat the OR, where the Street Sam just becomes even more deadly for the target lacking that awesome Armor and Body Rating of the Citymaster...

As for Metahuman Targets, they are both equally dead, regardless of whether the Mage did it or the Street Sam Did it...

Just Sayin'

Keep the Faith

[Yerameyahu]

You can't multicast? Anyway, it's not my point, I was just comparing what you said to what (I assumed) you were responding directly to.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

You can't multicast? Anyway, it's not my point, I was just comparing what you said to what (I assumed) you were responding directly to.

Anyone can indeed multicast (Just as Gunbunnies can take two Shots or more per pass), but the example (From Shinobi?) was not so...

No big deals though... Especially since I do not think that Spellcasting/Spells are broken... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Keep the Faith

[Redcrow]

I see a lot of argument based on the idea that a Street Sam can more or less reproduce the same amount of damage as a Mage so long as they have the right equipment. My argument is that I simply don't want the Mages in my game to be able to reproduce the equivalent firepower of a Street Sam round after round after round. I don't want Mages standing shoulder to shoulder with Street Sams hosing down the enemy with virtually limitless firepower.
This is what I call "artillery mage syndrome" and it just doesn't fit my vision for SR.

IMO the RAW make SR more like a Supers game in a vaguely cyberpunk setting. I prefer my games to be more gritty street level so I limit the power of Mages, but I also severely limit access to things like Machine Guns, Rocket Launchers, and Grenades. Most of my games take place in large cities like Seattle rather than 3rd world countries, so the use of things like Machine Guns and Rocket Launchers is likely to have every government agency with an acronym descending on any city in which they were used. Not only does this make life more difficult for the team, but for every other Shadowrunner in the city too. What is that going to do for the teams rep. Its virtually impossible to even buy that type of heavy artillery anomymously because its almost always done through a fixer or weapons dealer contact and you better hope you have a high loyalty rating with them because thats likely the first place the Feds are going to start their investigations.

Shadowrun for me is more covert-ops oriented and less run 'n gun. It has its share of combat, but the combat isn't likely to make national headlines due to how many people were killed or what buildings/vehicles were blown up. I know for a lot of people the game is more about who has the biggest gun and can cause the most damage per round. If I wanted a shoot 'em up with military grade weapons, I wouldn't be playing Shadowrun.

[Yerameyahu]

I assumed you were describing a Complex Action Full Auto (Narrow) from the sam, TJ. Sorry if I assumed wrong. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Shinobi Killfist]

Yeah that is kinda low dicepool for casting, even my latest mystic adept buld who only has magic 3 for spell casting has 16 dice to cast combat spells with.

I actually find the 10-12 dice pool fairly normal. It is easy to work the system to get a lot more but that isn't normal to me. 5 magic+5spellcasting=10dice and to me that is normal. Add in +2 dice for a mentor spirit and maybe another 2 for specialization though I generally don't do that at char gen. In a BP system I am tempted to get focuses given the discount on binding them and coming up with the 50,000+ for a power focus in game can take a while. But I usually pass on that and just have 10 dice with 12 dice in a school of magic or two from a mentor if I have one.

But I usually have 10 spells and I have enough versatility with them and spirits to cover a huge range of situations probably more than I could ever cover via skills for the same BP expenditure.

But you can grow fast as a mage and nothing stops you from using any of the skills in the game just as well as others. My 20 dice monstrosity at chargen was also the teams Face, a 7 Chr goes a long way to helping there. He had no idea how to use a gun but with spells how often does he need one. Admittedly background count double hit him in the dice pool since it hit his magic and the power focus but even then a 6 skill gets me a lot of dice and you don't need a massive force on some spells like mind control spells.

[Shinobi Killfist]

I see a lot of argument based on the idea that a Street Sam can more or less reproduce the same amount of damage as a Mage so long as they have the right equipment. My argument is that I simply don't want the Mages in my game to be able to reproduce the equivalent firepower of a Street Sam round after round after round. I don't want Mages standing shoulder to shoulder with Street Sams hosing down the enemy with virtually limitless firepower.
This is what I call "artillery mage syndrome" and it just doesn't fit my vision for SR.

It does not fit my vision of SR either.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I see a lot of argument based on the idea that a Street Sam can more or less reproduce the same amount of damage as a Mage so long as they have the right equipment. My argument is that I simply don't want the Mages in my game to be able to reproduce the equivalent firepower of a Street Sam round after round after round. I don't want Mages standing shoulder to shoulder with Street Sams hosing down the enemy with virtually limitless firepower.
This is what I call "artillery mage syndrome" and it just doesn't fit my vision for SR.

At least at our table, this is not the case... Mages are Powerful, but they rarely even WANT to stand with the Street Sam and fling Spells in tandem with the Street Sams Full Auto Bursts... That is what the Street Sam is for...

IMO the RAW make SR more like a Supers game in a vaguely cyberpunk setting. I prefer my games to be more gritty street level so I limit the power of Mages, but I also severely limit access to things like Machine Guns, Rocket Launchers, and Grenades. Most of my games take place in large cities like Seattle rather than 3rd world countries, so the use of things like Machine Guns and Rocket Launchers is likely to have every government agency with an acronym descending on any city in which they were used. Not only does this make life more difficult for the team, but for every other Shadowrunner in the city too. What is that going to do for the teams rep. Its virtually impossible to even buy that type of heavy artillery anomymously because its almost always done through a fixer or weapons dealer contact and you better hope you have a high loyalty rating with them because thats likely the first place the Feds are going to start their investigations.

Which I think tends to be the norm in most games (Limited use of Military Equipmewnt that is)... Rampant use of military equipment is generally a bad thing for business, and I would say that it is only common in Pink Mohawk Games...

Shadowrun for me is more covert-ops oriented and less run 'n gun. It has its share of combat, but the combat isn't likely to make national headlines due to how many people were killed or what buildings/vehicles were blown up.

Which I do think is the Norm... I have seen Way more Ice Cold Professional Level Games (Where Collatoral Damage is heavily limited) than Pink Mohawk Games (where anything goes) by a wide margin... Many of the comparisons used are Often Edge Cases to prove a point; Reality is generally somewhere in the middle for most Shadowrun games, I have found.

Keep the Faith

[Falconer]

Artillery mage:
Only if the mage is a diehard combat mage... and tricked out to the gills to cast combat spells. In which case, more power to him... as it's not a great mage build.


And all the comments about street sam w/ right equipment ignore the fact that all these optomized mages, have 10's of thousands (plus karma binding costs) in magical equipment somehow on them as well.

[Falconer]

Artillery mage:
Only if the mage is a diehard combat mage... and tricked out to the gills to cast combat spells. In which case, more power to him... as it's not a great mage build.


And all the comments about street sam w/ right equipment ignore the fact that all these optomized mages, have 10's of thousands (plus karma binding costs) in magical equipment somehow on them as well. As well as they're putting all their bonus (spec + mentor) into a single school of magic. (hence combat/artillery mage specialization).

[BlueMax]

I think the game should be able to support anyone's playstyle and that attacking other playstyles doesn't change the game mechanics.

BlueMax

[Saint Sithney]

1) This requires heavy modifications on the Steel Lynx: the serial weapon mount is not reinforced.
2) I don't see Ex-Ex assault cannon ammunition in the book.
3) You are throwing away 675 Y with every burst. Will the run will cover the expenses?

1) Restricted gear quality #3.
2) Nowhere does it say autocannons use assault cannon rounds. It follows that any other type of normal round may be used.
3) Use Regular explosive ammo for 12P -6AP. Oh heavens! Did I just lose a whole -1AP? How will I be able to destroy millions of dollars worth of heavy armor in a singe 32P narrow burst now?

Actual artillery is still better than an artillery mage. Too bad it can't get into a building though (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Cheops]

1) Restricted gear quality #3.
2) Nowhere does it say autocannons use assault cannon rounds. It follows that any other type of normal round may be used.
3) Use Regular explosive ammo for 12P -6AP. Oh heavens! Did I just lose a whole -1AP? How will I be able to destroy millions of dollars worth of heavy armor in a singe 32P narrow burst now?

Actual artillery is still better than an artillery mage. Too bad it can't get into a building though (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

2) As a GM you are well within your rights to say "No" to this because of this line:

Arsenal 124

GE Vanquisher Heavy Autocannon: This large autocannon is primarily used as the secondary weapon on ships or as main weapon on tankbusters....

This makes me think that the physical size of this thing would likely unbalance the Steel Lynx and cause it to flip. Maybe if you modified the rail mounted drone system from a monorail to a dual track with a fairly wide gauge then a GM can't really complain -- but then it can only go as far as the rails go. For mobility you could always mount it on a big jeep, flatbed truck, or bigger.

3) On a full narrow burst you'd be 26P, -6AP not 32P. The target still gets to dodge, and any uncompensated recoil is double the penalty. -14 dice is a lot of recoil to get rid of (even if it is vehicle mounted to get rid of the double problem).

This sort of stuff is also very far beyond most games. The example of the Citymasters was one where the team was trying to bluff past a checkpoint, failed, and was confronted with 2 Citymasters. I think LS or the target corp would have noticed a Steel Lynx with a fucking ship-mounted gatling gun on it loitering nearby.

[BlueMax]

This sort of stuff is also very far beyond most games. The example of the Citymasters was one where the team was trying to bluff past a checkpoint, failed, and was confronted with 2 Citymasters. I think LS or the target corp would have noticed a Steel Lynx with a fucking ship-mounted gatling gun on it loitering nearby.

Agreed, 100%.

BlueMax

[Shinobi Killfist]

1) Restricted gear quality #3.
2) Nowhere does it say autocannons use assault cannon rounds. It follows that any other type of normal round may be used.
3) Use Regular explosive ammo for 12P -6AP. Oh heavens! Did I just lose a whole -1AP? How will I be able to destroy millions of dollars worth of heavy armor in a singe 32P narrow burst now?

Actual artillery is still better than an artillery mage. Too bad it can't get into a building though (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

1. Yup, go for it.
2. Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, an autocannon does not use cannon rounds? Sorry no, it only uses cannon rounds. Also as pointed out by cheops there is a bit of logical incongruity with a ship mounted cannon on a small steel lynx.
3. There are plenty of ways for a rigger to get to absurd damage, and hey good for them. When they also remove 6 dice from all perception checks to notice the entire party, heal the sam after being shot on top of the first aid, then I'll be impressed. Luckily for riggers there is a decent chance they also can deck so they have at least a bit of breadth.

[Cheops]

Riggers are dead in SR4. No reason to play one anymore. A sam or a hacker can easily fill in for one and often do the job just as well. It's so cheap to be a hacker that you may as well be a sam, face, or rigger (or possibly 2-3 of those) at the same time. That's why I've fallen in love with the optional rule of dice pool modifiers affect the threshold of the test and not your dice pool. Now the control rig lets you do all sorts of crazy stuff that you might not otherwise attempt. Gives a bit more justification for a rigger class.