[X] My Assistant

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Riggers are dead in SR4. No reason to play one anymore. A sam or a hacker can easily fill in for one and often do the job just as well. It's so cheap to be a hacker that you may as well be a sam, face, or rigger (or possibly 2-3 of those) at the same time. That's why I've fallen in love with the optional rule of dice pool modifiers affect the threshold of the test and not your dice pool. Now the control rig lets you do all sorts of crazy stuff that you might not otherwise attempt. Gives a bit more justification for a rigger class.

Sorry, I have to disagree with you here... Riggers are pretty damn awesome in SR4 (At least in my opinion anyways)... Much more than in previous editions in my opinion. They are just as capable as in previous editions (If not more), And they are also capable of fulfilling other roles (Especially Hacking, if they are so inclined, as their skills will mesh nicely)...

I don't really like that particular optional Rule myself, but that is just me...

Keep the Faith

[Yerameyahu]

Hacker IS rigger, and that's a good thing.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Hacker IS rigger, and that's a good thing.

True... and Yes...

Keep the Faith

[Critias]

Riggers are dead in SR4. No reason to play one anymore. A sam or a hacker can easily fill in for one and often do the job just as well. It's so cheap to be a hacker that you may as well be a sam, face, or rigger (or possibly 2-3 of those) at the same time. That's why I've fallen in love with the optional rule of dice pool modifiers affect the threshold of the test and not your dice pool. Now the control rig lets you do all sorts of crazy stuff that you might not otherwise attempt. Gives a bit more justification for a rigger class.

There's no such thing as a "rigger class," because there's no such thing as classes.

[Ol' Scratch]

The problem is that there's no such thing as a Rigger, period, because all Riggers are Hackers. It's like trying to distinguish between a Mage and a Conjurer. It's just a specialty of a general archetype now, instead of its own unique niche like it used to be.

Which all of you know is exactly what Cheops was saying.

[Whipstitch]

Matter of preference. Personally, I'm fine with it.

And ironically enough, I concluded that letting the Control Rig flat out lower thresholds even further would actually make it less important to invest a good amount of points into having truly good Pilot skills. You already get a -1 to Thresholds via piloting through VR. Give a samurai a Horseman and a 10k nuyen, .5 essence Control Rig that also lowers thresholds and suddenly he's doing stoppies with minimal skill and a pinch of luck. Thanks, but no thanks. Making Riggers their own thing again isn't a one pass fix.

For the record though, I disagree that all Riggers are Hackers. You don't need Hacking to be a good Rigger and you don't need all those programs. You can get by with Computer and Cybercombat to keep people out of your stuff or could even try getting by with a good enough Agent if you really wanted to. I'll grant you that it's definitely -tempting- to go further and take those handy skills since they're low hanging fruit if you go with Skill Groups, but there's a difference between something being tempting and something being a given.

[Critias]

The problem is that there's no such thing as a Rigger, period, because all Riggers are Hackers. It's like trying to distinguish between a Mage and a Conjurer. It's just a specialty of a general archetype now, instead of its own unique niche like it used to be.

Which all of you know is exactly what Cheops was saying.

I think it takes more than a few plugs to make someone a Rigger or a Hacker. I know I've got at least three characters, just off the top of my head, that are drivers (and are capable of controlling drones), that certainly aren't Hackers by any stretch of the imagination.

This being a classless game, a character is what you make of it. The fact it doesn't take 2, 3, or 5 points of Essence to get a VCR rig any more is a good thing, in my opinion. A wildly, fantastically, feverishly, good thing.

[Saint Sithney]

2. Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, an autocannon does not use cannon rounds? Sorry no, it only uses cannon rounds. Also as pointed out by cheops there is a bit of logical incongruity with a ship mounted cannon on a small steel lynx.

I think you're mixing up the GE Vanquisher Autocannon with the GM Heavy Cannon Main Gun. The GM Heavy is the one which says it uses special rounds which share the same cost and availability as assault cannon rounds. The autocannon says no such thing, so one would assume no such thing.

It also says it's used for tankbuster vehicles and will fit in a heavy turret mount. You can put a heavy turret mount on a steel lynx, ergo, you can fit an autocannon on a steel lynx. Or, stuff a hidden turret in a bus or something if that's what you require to feed the RC needs with RC = body.

The point is, when you need artillery on demand, a mage will do, but if artillery is the plan, call a rigger.

[Lanlaorn]

All this talk has me trying to create a decent mage/rigger as a thought exercise but it's pretty tricky if you want to start with a few Foci (which I think is quite important, a Sustaining 3 (health) + Power 2 at least IMO) since properly modified and fitted drones are also expensive as hell (unless I'm doing it wrong, heh).

[Ol' Scratch]

I think it takes more than a few plugs to make someone a Rigger or a Hacker. I know I've got at least three characters, just off the top of my head, that are drivers (and are capable of controlling drones), that certainly aren't Hackers by any stretch of the imagination.

This being a classless game, a character is what you make of it. The fact it doesn't take 2, 3, or 5 points of Essence to get a VCR rig any more is a good thing, in my opinion. A wildly, fantastically, feverishly, good thing.

And none of that actually has anything to do with what the guy was saying.

Riggers are dead. They're a specialty to a broader category of character. Unlike, say, Mages or Hackers. It has nothing to do with VCR's being expensive, but with Riggers actually being unique and requiring focused character builds to make them worthwhile; not something anyone else can do just by dropping a few nuyen in the bucket and calling it a day. When you can just get a cheap Control Rig and toss a few extra programs on your Commlink... that doesn't make you a Rigger. It makes you a Hacker who can rig. Same applies for adepts or anyone else you care to choose for the base archetype.

And, for the record, a "driver" is not a Rigger. It takes a Control Rig or its equivalence to be one.

[Redcrow]

I may be in the minority, but I hate that they eliminated the niche that Riggers used to fill and meshed them so thorougly with Hackers. Thats because vehicle chases tend to be a large staple of the games I run though. I don't particularly like the idea that Hackers can become combat monsters both in and out of the Matrix for such a small amount of extra essence and a couple basic drones. I like that SR doesn't have set classes and characters can mix 'n match however they wish, but I don't like the dumbing down of specializations.

[Whipstitch]

I don't really see how it's a subcategory of Hacker when you don't need Hacking skills to be a Rigger. You don't even need Hacking to protect your stuff, really. If you're paranoid you could go with Data Bombs, Computer-Analyze and some Cyber Combat if you REALLY feel like squaring off with them yourself as a cyber-brawler while Agents and such can do a decent job if you want to bare bones it. Otherwise you can just go with Manual Control Override Systems and start driving with your own two hands if you'd rather skip taking a dose of 'trix skills and instead just have a backup system when wireless starts to turn against you. Or else you could just take a length of fiber optics and stick that baby into your datajack. There's advantages to going the "I know the 'trix inside and out!" Hacker-Rigger route, but you guys are definitely exaggerating the necessity of it. You don't need total exclusivity to be well-defined.

[BlueMax]

Y'all done hijacked what was a progressing magic vs non magic thread into a "Are all Riggers Hackers" thread.

BlueMax
/take this thread to Cuba

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

And none of that actually has anything to do with what the guy was saying.

Riggers are dead. They're a specialty to a broader category of character. Unlike, say, Mages or Hackers. It has nothing to do with VCR's being expensive, but with Riggers actually being unique and requiring focused character builds to make them worthwhile; not something anyone else can do just by dropping a few nuyen in the bucket and calling it a day. When you can just get a cheap Control Rig and toss a few extra programs on your Commlink... that doesn't make you a Rigger. It makes you a Hacker who can rig. Same applies for adepts or anyone else you care to choose for the base archetype.

And, for the record, a "driver" is not a Rigger. It takes a Control Rig or its equivalence to be one.

You know, if you are going to make statements that the Rigger is dead, it really minimizes what you say when you then say that you need a Control Rig to be a Rigger... Either they exist or they don't... Which is it? You cannot have it both ways. I believe that you are wrong. Riggers are very playable characters that do not really need any serious level of Hacking to perform their duties. Admittedly, if they do take Hacker skills, it will aid them greatly in their function as a Rigger, but it is not absolutely necessary.

As for needing a control rig to be called a Rigger, I call bollocks to that, because it is not true at all... You can rig perfectly well without one (After all, it only adds +2 Dice, and does not actually reduce Thresholds)...

Keep the Faith

[Critias]

And none of that actually has anything to do with what the guy was saying.

Riggers are dead. They're a specialty to a broader category of character. Unlike, say, Mages or Hackers. It has nothing to do with VCR's being expensive, but with Riggers actually being unique and requiring focused character builds to make them worthwhile; not something anyone else can do just by dropping a few nuyen in the bucket and calling it a day. When you can just get a cheap Control Rig and toss a few extra programs on your Commlink... that doesn't make you a Rigger. It makes you a Hacker who can rig. Same applies for adepts or anyone else you care to choose for the base archetype.

And, for the record, a "driver" is not a Rigger. It takes a Control Rig or its equivalence to be one.

Obviously your idea of a Rigger and my idea of a Rigger aren't matching up. Have a good one.

[Yerameyahu]

You can put a *heavy* turret on a Steel Lynx? I wasn't aware they had Body 14+.

You're right, I didn't mean Rigger is a Hacker (as in, cybercombat, exploit, etc.). I meant Rigger is a Hacker (as in, Matrix-centric, commlink-bound character).

[Saint Sithney]

You can put a *heavy* turret on a Steel Lynx? I wasn't aware they had Body 14+.

You're right, I didn't mean Rigger is a Hacker (as in, cybercombat, exploit, etc.). I meant Rigger is a Hacker (as in, Matrix-centric, commlink-bound character).

Well, all you need is a Reinforced Fixed Weapon mount, which you can fit on any vehicle with 4 body or more. Then you've got yourself a gun on wheels.

[Yerameyahu]

Hmm. I must be confused on a couple things. First, that's not a Heavy Turret, but I assume the post only meant 'larger than LMG mount'; second, a Reinforced Mount takes up two Standard Mount slots, and it's one Standard Mount per 3 Body. Right?

[Saint Sithney]

Hmm. I must be confused on a couple things. First, that's not a Heavy Turret, but I assume the post only meant 'larger than LMG mount'; second, a Reinforced Mount takes up two Standard Mount slots, and it's one Standard Mount per 3 Body. Right?

Yep, per 3 body, rounded up.

So, 4 rounds up to two mounts.

[Yerameyahu]

Ha, no way. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) I forgot that silly clause was in the book, because we know that's terrible and wrong at my table. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Redcrow]

I would also like to add that I don't like how Smartgoggles are now basically just as good as an internal Smartlink system. I prefer the way previous editions handled that with a +1 for Smartgoggles and a +2 for an internal Smartlink. But thats just one of many many changes I don't like.

[Ol' Scratch]

Obviously your idea of a Rigger and my idea of a Rigger aren't matching up. Have a good one.

Yeah. It's really hard to grasp that a Rigger actuallys rigs a vehicle, usually via a Vehicle Control Rig. See ya.

[Yerameyahu]

Redcrow, tough to do anything about that. Anyone can just wear trodes, for example, if the goggles are the problem, and basically anything has Image Link. Really, even a 'tough' version of such a restriction would only force everyone to get a tiny Datajack; only the Mages and Adepts would suffer.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Yeah. It's really hard to grasp that a Rigger actuallys rigs a vehicle, usually via a Vehicle Control Rig. See ya.

Really? I thought that Riggers were Dead... Isn't that what you said?

Keep the Faith

[Ol' Scratch]

Yep. Try to pay attention to the conversation before jumping in with such poignant observations.