[X] My Assistant

[BlueMax]

Hah, I remember the actual Doc Chase, the character. He was a medic mage. I don't think I ever actually had to use the spell - his biotech group was so good that his medkit took care of everything before magic even had to come into play.

Yes. the mage only has Heal on the off chance the First Aid roll is botched badly. There was a build on DumpShock that had 36 dice and the possibility to heal 10 boxes (adept).

Specialized, yes.
Awesome, definitely.


BlueMax

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Yes. the mage only has Heal on the off chance the First Aid roll is botched badly. There was a build on DumpShock that had 36 dice and the possibility to heal 10 boxes (adept).

Specialized, yes.
Awesome, definitely.


BlueMax

Useful for anything else? Not Much... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)
But he was good at First Aid...

Keep the Faith

[biccat]

Since I was the mage in question, I'll put up the stats.

Magic 6, spell casting 6, power focus 4, specialization combat spells, mentor dragon slayer. 20 dice.

Oh and a sustaining focus for 4 actions a turn. All that was at char gen. At the citymaster incident he was a grade 2 initiate with masking and extended masking but otherwise the same.

Powerbolts 4 of em. Average 6-7 hits a turn which made my force 9 powerbolts go to 11 damage, 2 shots and a citymaster blows. Though in the specific case where it occurred I got 8 hits on the first spell and 9 on the first spell at the 2nd citymaster. Lucky rolls what can I say.

On a side note,we were trying to build powerful characters for a specific reason. Normally my mages aren't quite that specialized in magic. Though given the breadth of spells and spirit powers it did not seem to hamper my versatility too much.

While it's certainly possible to do this with a Mage (with a 20R Power Focus), it's also possible to do so with a 20F Panther XXL with EX ammo (11P, -6 AP), or an HMG (8P, -4 AP) firing full auto.

Is your mage walking around with a Force 3 Sustaining Focus, Force 3 Improved Reflexes, and a Force 4 Power Focus active? If so, then you would stand out like a candle in astral space, and just about any corp. security mage would look at you pretty closely. If not, then what were the Citymasters doing for the round that it takes to cast the spell (1st pass) and activate both foci (2nd pass)?

Finally, what was the other Citymaster doing while you were casting your Force 8 Powerbolts at the first? Did it sit there and wait for you to cast another spell?

Yes, mages are powerful, but this isn't D&D where you try to create the biggest, baddest character possible. In Shadowrun, there are always more powerful beings or corporations. A mage taking out that much will certainly draw attention, and you can expect Lone Star mages to get your astral signature and start an all-out manhunt for you.

[Traul]

While it's certainly possible to do this with a Mage (with a 20R Power Focus), it's also possible to do so with a 20F Panther XXL with EX ammo (11P, -6 AP)

Hardly in 2 shots: with the Citymaster soaking an average 10 damage, this would require 7 net hits per shot.

or an HMG (8P, -4 AP) firing full auto.

Hardly at all: this would require 9 net hits to bypass the armor.

But it is pretty normal for a citymaster to be able to stand in front of anything but AV ammunition. What is not is for it to fall to spells like a jackrabbit.

[Shinobi Killfist]

While it's certainly possible to do this with a Mage (with a 20R Power Focus), it's also possible to do so with a 20F Panther XXL with EX ammo (11P, -6 AP), or an HMG (8P, -4 AP) firing full auto.

Is your mage walking around with a Force 3 Sustaining Focus, Force 3 Improved Reflexes, and a Force 4 Power Focus active? If so, then you would stand out like a candle in astral space, and just about any corp. security mage would look at you pretty closely. If not, then what were the Citymasters doing for the round that it takes to cast the spell (1st pass) and activate both foci (2nd pass)?

Finally, what was the other Citymaster doing while you were casting your Force 8 Powerbolts at the first? Did it sit there and wait for you to cast another spell?

Yes, mages are powerful, but this isn't D&D where you try to create the biggest, baddest character possible. In Shadowrun, there are always more powerful beings or corporations. A mage taking out that much will certainly draw attention, and you can expect Lone Star mages to get your astral signature and start an all-out manhunt for you.

Even with a power focus 2 you'd see the same thing though it is easier to miss the needed net hits. As I said I think in another post this was like a whopping 20 some karma into a game and I initiated twice for masking and extended masking so no standing out. But yes at the start you'd stand out. And hey the mages were the biggest problem for me in that session I nearly got spattered and would have been if I did not edge things on a bad roll since they had reflecting metamagic. I think I was 1 success off from being paste.

As for the other citymaster I was in our fairly well armored vehicle(it seems almost all vehicles in 4e are) and shooting through the window. We had a pretty good driver and it provides decent protection so I easily had a turn to suirvive especially given it was hard to specifically target me in that situation. And we had some people on foot blowing the crap out of things to cause a distraction.

Funny you brought up D&D. Because 1 it is very much like D&D replace run with dungeon and its pretty solid comparison for many households. As bad ass as you get there usually always was something more bad ass out there, except maybe the end, end game but in 2e and earlier that was after 5+ years of gaming. And 2 until recent editions they both seemed to have a similar philosophy on mages. You have unlimited advancement but you start off weaker and have to earn it. In basic through 2e how bad ass was your level 1 mage, now how bad ass was your level 13+mage? That is a type of game balance that I personally am fine with, though others don't like. More recent editions have moved away from that style of balance and you can look to 4e D&D for an example. Balance at all levels, joy. SR gives mages the comparative to other archetypes unlimited super bad ass powers in the end game especially in 4e where it is the only area of unlimited advancement, but they don't really start off weak. Exactly how does this balance out again?

[Shinobi Killfist]

But it is pretty normal for a citymaster to be able to stand in front of anything but AV ammunition. What is not is for it to fall to spells like a jackrabbit.

While vehciles are a bit of an edge case it does bother me that citymasters fall almost as easily as jackrabbits for spells. In previous editions I do not remember that, though the manifest your spirit inside things always worked. But combat spells failed hard vs cars IIRC or at least it was a lot harder to pull off. In 2e the ram spell actually worked better vs inanimate objects than other spells but still a citymaster was probably out of your league.

[Inpu]

I know this topic has faded into the background a bit, but it surprises me people focus on one thing being more powerful than another in Shadowrun. Balance never seemed to be the concern when I looked at the system: like a number of other systems, such as a lot of Old White Wolf, you are the master of your field and lack elsewhere.

Magic is incredibly powerful, but then everyone had the option to buy it at their character creation. Furthermore, the game rewards clever players: why fight the mage on his terms, in line of sight so he can fry your brains, when you can hack the PAN of the gun-toting buddy next to him and wreak havoc? Drones limit mage options a little by virtue of not being alive, and you can always use your environment to your advantage, such as blasting a hole through a wall to get around the mage.

Nine out of ten times, your own party will likely have a mage as well. With good tactics, such as spreading your ranks, and a little creative building, such as taking options that up your spell resistance in character creation, you are pretty much set. At least, as much as anyone will be. Prepare for the eventuality of running into a Mage and you are already ahead.

Besides, at the end of the day, you always have the option of landing an Ares Dragon on the mage. Or crashing it onto him, which works too.

[Lansdren]

I know this topic has faded into the background a bit, but it surprises me people focus on one thing being more powerful than another in Shadowrun. Balance never seemed to be the concern when I looked at the system: like a number of other systems, such as a lot of Old White Wolf, you are the master of your field and lack elsewhere.

Magic is incredibly powerful, but then everyone had the option to buy it at their character creation. Furthermore, the game rewards clever players: why fight the mage on his terms, in line of sight so he can fry your brains, when you can hack the PAN of the gun-toting buddy next to him and wreak havoc? Drones limit mage options a little by virtue of not being alive, and you can always use your environment to your advantage, such as blasting a hole through a wall to get around the mage.

Nine out of ten times, your own party will likely have a mage as well. With good tactics, such as spreading your ranks, and a little creative building, such as taking options that up your spell resistance in character creation, you are pretty much set. At least, as much as anyone will be.

Besides, at the end of the day, you always have the option of landing an Ares Dragon on the mage. Or crashing it onto him, which works too.

Granted abit necro, but I have to say well said

[Cabral]

Book definition of a Rigger.

"Riggers are a subset of hackers who focus on using and manipulating modern vehicles and drones."

SR4A p. 17. Your definition is your own, no matter how much you wish it wasn't.

Ol' Scratch, I was going to comment that I could see your point in regards to Riggers as VCR equipped drone jockeys are in short supply, but with the quote you provided, VCRs do not define Riggers.

Perhaps your point was that they are no longer broken out as a distinct archetype and thus are "dead"?

By the way the gear that let Deckers hijack a spider's network was from Corporate Security Handbook. I think the same book also was the first appearance of fiberoptic mage goggles. (Look! Mageyness! That counts as on-topic, right?)

[BlueMax]

This topic is one more reason why I think the Shadowrun community needs more mixing. Everyone I play with nearby is strongly in the "Spells are strong, if not too strong" camp. Yet, other areas have different opinions.

Its a darn tooting shame there is so little Shadowrun support outside the two Indiana cons. Or is it a darn tootin shame I don't live in Indiana?

BlueMax

[CanRay]

First rule of combat in the Sixth World: Geek the Mage.

Second rule of combat in the Sixth World: Geek the Ork with the big gun.

Third rule of combat in the Sixth World: If you're an Ork with a big gun, get a magician partner.

[Mordinvan]

First rule of combat in the Sixth World: Geek the Mage.

Second rule of combat in the Sixth World: Geek the Ork with the big gun.

Third rule of combat in the Sixth World: If you're an Ork with a big gun, get a magician partner.

Or be an ork ghoul mage, who uses a panther as their standby weapon.

[Inpu]

Granted abit necro, but I have to say well said

Thank you.

Or be an ork ghoul mage, who uses a panther as their standby weapon.

I was thinking that myself.

First rule of combat in the Sixth World: Geek the Mage.

Second rule of combat in the Sixth World: Geek the Ork with the big gun.

Third rule of combat in the Sixth World: If you're an Ork with a big gun, get a magician partner.

Still, as rules go, those aren't bad ones. Where does "Always have a hacker handy" weigh in?

[TommyTwoToes]

Thank you.



I was thinking that myself.




Still, as rules go, those aren't bad ones. Where does "Always have a hacker handy" weigh in?

Someone's sig has "DGIF" which is : Drones Go In First.

Hey we should start a thread on shadowrunning rules.

[Inpu]

Good idea. I'll do just that.

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=32017

[The Grue Master]

a 20F Panther XXL with EX ammo (11P, -6 AP)

Doesn't the Panther use its own Assault Cannon class of ammo?

[Cheops]

Holy Shedim attack Batman!

I was pretty pleased when the group that I am running now ended up with 2 adepts and no mages out of 5 players.

[Mäx]

Doesn't the Panther use its own Assault Cannon class of ammo?

yes it does.