[X] My Assistant

[TommyTwoToes]

Firearms: DV is reduced by 1 per hit
Magic: DV is reduced by 1 per hit, and entirely negated if the resistance check equals or exceeds the number of hits the mage gets.

Actually,
Firearms: if defender gets more hits on Reaction than attacker on offense => entirely negated, otherwise DV reduced by Body+Armor hits
Magic: if defender gets more hits on Willpower than attacker on offense => entirely negated.

Damage from direct combat spells is not reduced by hits. The base damage (force) either hits or it dosn't. The only variable part of the damage is if the Mage chooses to apply net hits to damage.

Against firearms the defender gets 2 opportunities to mitigate damage, against Magic you get 1.

[Mäx]

And correct me if I'm wrong, but as I understand it in Shadowrun to cast a spell you don't need to utter an arcane phrase or do any arm/hand gestures, correct?

Noticing spell casting is a perception test with treshold of 6-force so spells of gorce 6 or more are very obvious.

Damage from direct combat spells is not reduced by hits. The base damage (force) either hits or it dosn't. The only variable part of the damage is if the Mage chooses to apply net hits to damage.

In a game with no optional/house rules in play, the damage of aa direct combat spell is force+nethits so every hit defender gets does reduce damage.

[Warlordtheft]

Forgot:
Fire Arms: No limit to number of hits
Magic:Hits limited by force of spell

[Ol' Scratch]

<shrugs> Most of my characters, without outside help, can take more than a couple shots from firearms and keep on going. Unless I specifically build an anti-magic character, few of them can handle a single overcast Stunbolt, let alone a double cast one. Your mileage may vary.

[Mäx]

Forgot:
Fire Arms: No limit to number of hits
Magic:Hits limited by force of spell

Unless your the luckiest person alive, thats not a problem that comes up often most likely never in case of overcasting spells around force 10.
And if you happen to actually get 10+ net hits on a force then spell, who cares they allready dead/unconcius from 20 points of damage.

<shrugs> Most of my characters, without outside help, can take more than a couple shots from firearms and keep on going.

Then the opposition just isn't using enought of a gun. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Whipstitch]

Well, if most of his characters are trolls or orks, that might do it as well. 15+ dice to resist and a Pain Editor get you pretty far in life. It's a lot easier to make a mundane character that can shrug off the brunt of a heavy pistol's damage than it is to build a mundo that can ignore mana bolts from a lowly 8 dice wage mage. Part of the problem is the simple fact that the latter has a pretty free hand when it comes to choosing his damage value whereas grunts are stuck with whatever equipment they have on hand, for good or ill.

[BlueMax]

I got here late, all the classics have come up.

Grenades: but they can be detected by machines and norms. Thus not nearly as cool as a dude who can blow up the world with his mind.
Optional rules: to mask the flaws in the system.
Freak rolls: For that one in a million that happens in every theoretical run.

Did I miss anything?

Suggestion: If Magic is powerful, play a Mage. This is exactly what my players have done. We have but one true mundane, thats is to say not magical or TM, and he is an Astral Hazing - Arcane Arresting Trauma Dampener + platelet factory abusing tank, protected by a great deal of Counterspelling.

Then I start throwing Mana Static at the players.

BlueMax

[Whipstitch]

Yeah, back when I mostly played rather than GM'd I once half-jokingly referred to the game as Mage: The Shadowrun due to all 6 of us wanting to be Awakened.

[Cheops]

Anything a sam can do a mage can do as well.

Someone says that you can use a gun or a grenade. Well, nothing stops a mage from doing that.
Someone says that drones gank mages. Well, mages can use drones as well.
He can wear camo. He can wear the exact same security armor as the rest of his Red Samurai buddies.
He can take advantage of technology just as much as anyone else.

The street sam needs help smuggling his cyberwear around the city.
The street sam needs to go to extreme lengths to conceal his weapons.
The street sam can't instantly conjure bad-ass combat drones to his side. (they're bound by the laws of physics)
The street sam can't turn himself into a living radar that can sense everyone around him and what they are thinking.

There is nothing that any mundane can do that some sort of awakened character can't do better. (exception = TMs)

Good luck finding my mage when I nuke you from on high with my crow form's bad-ass invisible laser eye beams!!! Bwahahahaha.

[Cheops]

Dangit! Twice in two days. Darn double posts.

[tagz]

I see it as fairly reasonable right now.

Yes, magic is scary. So are guns, explosives, drowning, and dragons.

Magic has the advantage of bypassing most mundane defenses against it, leaving only another magical force to defend against it. The magician pays for this advantage with a quality, having to purchasing spells, and taking drain. Really, I only see the last one as more then a minor hindrance, but the others should be noted. Anyhow, they DO pay for the advantage they receive.

Guns have the advantage of being easier to get and plentiful. I don't always agree with Mäx, sometimes you don't need bigger guns, sometimes you just need more. A Sam can likely handle 5 groups of 4 grunts if he's got some cover, an automatic, and enough ammo. A mage will either have to target one at a time to keep drain low or hope that THIS group is the last one, and if it's not...

I think the biggest problem most groups and GMs have with magic is that they don't use the rules "surrounding" magic use enough. There are rules about tracking astral signatures and recognizing auras for a reason. Mental manipulation is obvious to the victim and the rules on noticing spellcasting make it fairly easy to spot the mage despite metatype or if he "looks like a hacker". All spells used in a crime are considered premeditated spell use. Sure, you don't hunt down runners for every little thing, but that doesn't mean the megas, the government, the LEOs, etc, won't keep files and records for any number of uses such as extortion, arresting you the moment you cross onto their territory, etc.

But finally, I don't think there is anything WRONG with saying magic is deadly and hard to defend against. It is. If you don't think it is it'll likely end up killing you.

[Mr. Unpronouncea...]

There is nothing that any mundane can do that some sort of awakened character can't do better. (exception = TMs)

And get cyberware.
And use electronic aids for targeting.
And functioning in a background count.
etc.

[Doc Chase]

And get cyberware.
And use electronic aids for targeting.
And functioning in a background count.
etc.

Operate in spaaaaaace.

[Cheops]

Operate in spaaaaaace.

Or just about any environment in Target: Wastelands. Touche!

[Gamer6432]

And get cyberware.
And use electronic aids for targeting.
And functioning in a background count.
etc.

Any mage can use 'ware. Using Alpha grade bioware can yield some pretty good results with only a one point hit to your maximum Magic/Resonance attribute.
Glasses or goggles don't cost essence and can grant all the benefits of an Image Link, Smartlink, et all.
Mages can also learn metamagic abilities that allow them to effectively ignore Background Count around them

[cndblank]

Magic is also effected by Cover.

Not as simple as that, in a combat spell vs gun comparison:

Firearms: Reaction+Armor+Body + dodge (if you sacrifice your next action)
Magic: Willpower + Counterspelling (which can incude Conterspelling foci)

Firearms: Affected by cover
Magic: Affected by background count

Firearms: Armor>DV, P is now S
Magic: S is less drain than P

Firearms: DV is reduced by 1 per hit
Magic: DV is reduced by 1 per hit, and entirely negated if the resistance check equals or exceeds the number of hits the mage gets.

[Whipstitch]

You're assuming the mage and the sam are both standing in the open in a well-lit (but not overlit) space. If there's cover available, the sam runs for cover. Break LOS, and the number of ways the mage can kill you goes way down. Pop smoke, dive for cover, circle around, shoot the mage in the back. Sure, if you're dumb enough to just stand there and let the other guy kill you, you're gonna die. Doesn't really prove anything.

Except that magicians have more tools for countering these modifiers than the Samurai does in many instances. Hell, a Magician can cast spells from around corners with a periscope, for god's sake!

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Except that magicians have more tools for countering these modifiers than the Samurai does in many instances. Hell, a Magician can cast spells from around corners with a periscope, for god's sake!

Which they take a negative modifier for...

If appropriate modifiers are applied consistently, then magic does lose a lot of its "brokenness", as has been mentioned previously...

Keep the Faith

[Whipstitch]

And that's why you get cybereyes.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

And that's why you get cybereyes.

But cybereyes do not negate all of your penalties though...

Just Sayin'

Keep the Faith

[Whipstitch]

You don't need to negate all of the penalties. You need to negate enough to beat Willpower and the samurai is toast.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Well, force 8 is a massive spell. I think I'ver never cast anything above 6 in all these years of playing magicians. If the Troll-Sam gets out his Panther, to do cry "firearms are way to strong"?

A mage only needs a magic 4 to have a force 8 spell up his sleeves at all times.

In previous editions I'd be saying the same thing. I've never cast a spell over force 6. In SR4 I rarely cast a spell below force 6. Heck the mage in the OPs example used powerball at force 8 which did what 7Pdrain. A magic 5 mage with stunball and sling force 9 stunballs for a measly 5P drain. Add in spirits and ridiculous versatility and mages seem to be playing with a marked deck.

Mages are the only character type in SR4 where I have to go out of my way not to be overly powerful when building the character. Usually if I just build a character they end up fine, mages with things like overcasting go from reasonable looking to overpowered just by how you play the character.

Oh and for those claiming grenades.

1 crap scatter rules.
2. the damage is reduced every meter from the blast point.
3. they get armor
4. The damage does not increase due to well placed throws shots, so 10P max and it is resisted down.

Yeah we can make it better for the sams by going with chemical weapons, but sams have to go to things like that to stay afloat with a basic vanilla mage.

[Whipstitch]

And let's not get things twisted here: I am certainly not arguing that it's impossible to build a samurai that could kill the average magician. My problem with Magicians is that you can build one whose magic abilities are primarily built around doing support and legwork but as long as he has a decent spellcasting skill he can be pressed into service as an emergency artillery piece for the cost of learning Power Ball. That's a li'l... weird.

[Redcrow]

Thats why I prefer to use DV=F instead of DV=F/2. It really helps to cut down on 'artillery mage syndrome'. The spells themselves remain powerful, but they certainly aren't thrown around haphazardly anymore. I rather like the Mage to be more of a support character, backing up the Street Sams and Phys Ads rather than standing on the front lines shoulder to shoulder with them.

[Shinobi Killfist]

And let's not get things twisted here: I am certainly not arguing that it's impossible to build a samurai that could kill the average magician. My problem with Magicians is that you can build one whose magic abilities are primarily built around doing support and legwork but as long as he has a decent spellcasting skill he can be pressed into service as an emergency artillery piece for the cost of learning Power Ball. That's a li'l... weird.

Yup. That is one of my main issues with mages. You can make a fairly normal plane jane mage who looks balanced. Buy a couple spells and you are a kicking out heavy weapons damage.

I'm not sure I'd go with redcrows idea since it actually makes a large range of the support spells almost unavailable as well.