Spells are strong ..., ... did I miss something. Options

[Ol' Scratch]

As I mentioned earlier, if you just get rid of overcasting (which was a goofy addition in 4th Edition anyway), almost all the problems disappear.

[fistandantilus4....]

Then you lose the flavor of the mage managing to kill themselves through casting more than they can handle.

Of course, there's so many ways to mitigate drain now, I've never actually seen that happen out side of a novel or published game.

[Ol' Scratch]

Yeah, lemme count how many times that's ever happened in a game I've played in. 0. Well, that was fast. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Mäx]

As I mentioned earlier, if you just get rid of overcasting (which was a goofy addition in 4th Edition anyway), almost all the problems disappear.

Well you should probaply also get rid of multicasting to if your doing that, becouse otherwise i just cast 2 or force 5 stunballs if i cant cast that one force12.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Or instead of getting rid of overcasting go back to earlier editions and pay for the force of the spell kind of like technomancers. You want a force 9 stun ball go for it, it costs 9 karma and is a hard spell to find and takes a really long time to research/learn. And the highest you can start with at char gen is 6 anyways. You'd still have the flavor of being able to take physical drain, but it would be uncommon just like in previous editions.

[Falanin]

Note also that the force 8 spell from the OP loses none of it's damage potential all the way out to 8 meters range. I'm sorry, but your grenade just isn't going to have the same amount of killing power, given that it loses 1 DV every 1-2 meters, depending on grenade type. Likewise, don't the 4a rules say that you don't add extra hits to DV on grenades? Good luck killing anyone in armor with less than 2-3 grenades. Compare to spells, where the first one is quite often the last one needed...

[Traul]

Of course, there's so many ways to mitigate drain now, I've never actually seen that happen out side of a novel or published game.

That is because the overcasting rule was poorly conceived: no matter how much wishful thinking is put in the books, overcasting does NOT inflict more drain. If you can soak 7S, you can soak 7P. There are even situations where overcasting is less damaging to the character than normal casting: with a highly damaged Stun monitor and a clean Physical monitor, the mage can be still standing after overcasting whereas he would have crashed to normal drain.

House-rule proposal: overcasting drain remains Stun, but it switches to Force + modifier instead of F/2 + modifier.

[TommyTwoToes]

That is because the overcasting rule was poorly conceived: no matter how much wishful thinking is put in the books, overcasting does NOT inflict more drain. If you can soak 7S, you can soak 7P. There are even situations where overcasting is less damaging to the character than normal casting: with a highly damaged Stun monitor and a clean Physical monitor, the mage can be still standing after overcasting whereas he would have crashed to normal drain.

House-rule proposal: overcasting drain remains Stun, but it switches to Force + modifier instead of F/2 + modifier.

Thats not a bad houserule at all.

[FireHand]

Good golly, Miss Molly. Is magic really that much of a problem in your games? SR has always had the adage, "Geek the mage first," and it still holds! Yes, magic can be powerful, but I feel the system works as written currently. Do my mages overcast regularly? Yes, they do, but there are multipe times when the mage decides to back out of going further in the 'run because he/she is running low on physical boxes of health. Is there a metagaming side to balancing stun drain vs. physical? Sure there is, but then there is metagaming going on with just about every character archetype. I mean, during my last game session we had a troll with moderate armor who shrugged off a shotgun blast point blank to his chest. Ridiculous, sure... but it was awesome at the same time.

My point is that mages may seem powerful in their own context, but I very seriously doubt you could have a group of newbie mages get together and 'run very effectively. Most mages don't have the points to spend at char creation to make themselves physical or ranged combat gumbies, let alone be able to manipulate the matrix. And whereas a good powerball may be a scene ender, with the capping rules the way they are I don't see that as overbalancing things. From what I can see, my group relies on my mage to be able to put down a group of baddies... as long as the baddies are at range. Mages are great at range, but things quickly hit the fan if the mage suddenly is in melee. Sure, they can still sling stunbolts around, but suddenly the targets become individual (unless you really want to risk taking yourself and your group out with the baddies).

Additionallym there is the drain to keep in mind. When someone fires of a flechette shotgun for 9P against a flesh target, they don't even have to worry about recoil. The Mage has to worry about rolling badly for drain. My starting character (a mage) regularly comes away from even a quickie 'run with some damage from drain. When the 'run goes into moderate length, some of that damage is physical. My very first run with the mage resulted in 7 boxes of physical damage and 6 of stun at the end of the 'run... all of it from Drain. My teammates were pretty much unscathed...

Yes, mages can be powerful, but they only have a niche. The more experience (the more karma) a mage has the more opportunity he/she has to branch out and become adept at other things... but then the karma spent doesn't get spent on magical advances.

So, that being said... let the flame war begin. I know there's gonna be people who will go about disproving me with statistics and die rolls and even char builds. Have fun!

[Whipstitch]

My point is that mages may seem powerful in their own context, but I very seriously doubt you could have a group of newbie mages get together and 'run very effectively.

Pretty irrelevant. Newbies are newbies for roughly a session or two. A game should be friendly to newcomers but if you want it to have any staying power at all then you should never, EVER plan around the idea that the players can be consistently expected to under perform.

From what I can see, my group relies on my mage to be able to put down a group of baddies... as long as the baddies are at range.

Wait, people can close on a magician? My combat mages usually have Levitation and Detect Enemies. Between that and Control Thoughts and multi-casting Stun Bolts guys getting into point blank has never really been a problem for me. Even when it has come up, I was basically "reduced" to the same level of firepower as the Samurai, since firing grenades at point blank isn't such a hot idea either.

My starting character (a mage) regularly comes away from even a quickie 'run with some damage from drain.

It's hard for me to feel bad for mages taking the odd point of drain now and again when you consider just how many attacks they can preempt with Mob Mind or an overcast alpha strike.

Yes, mages can be powerful, but they only have a niche.

Yeah, but that niche is summoning, counterspelling, spellcasting and Astral recon/tracking. That's a hell of a niche when you consider what you can get out of Task & Spirits of Man and the right spell selection. You could literally eliminate all combat spells and remove overcasting and Magicians would still be a viable archetype since they have access to effects that either have no parallel or at least stack with mundane options, such as Illusions, Heal and Mind Control. Mind you, I don't think it'd really be a good idea, since there's a lot of history behind the combat mage concept and thematically such spells have value to the game beyond mere mechanics. But I do think it demonstrates how magicians are closer to being a bit too strong than they are to being too narrow.

[FireHand]

So, you're saying that a group of experienced mages can roll through their town and own it? Sure, I agree that mages with the appropriate karma builds can probably satisfy most every niche there is to be held, but at what cost to themselves? That mage who decides he needs to be the group's melee tank, so he focusses on the physical--how well-equipped will he be to take out that group shooting at him from 100 yards away? Or what about the mage who decides his group needs a hacker? After he becomes a sufficiently good hacker, does he have anything left to improve his mage abilities?

Mages themselves are karma sinks (I'd argue they're the most karma-centric archetypes in the game, though I could be wrong there...). When they start spreading themselves out with karma builds, it becomes that much more difficult to improve their own native powers. Can they be effective with tangental karma builds? Sure. But will they be able to take on that powerful wizard baddie when they come upon him/her? I'd say they'd be at a disadvantage.

[FireHand]

Wait, people can close on a magician? My combat mages usually have Levitation and Detect Enemies. Between that and Control Thoughts and multi-casting Stun Bolts guys getting into point blank has never really been a problem for me.

The majority of my 'runs don't happen outdoors. They're usually in confined quarters: a hallway, or a room. Levitating doesn't work in these situations. Now, outdoors, I'd say that's a great idea... but then, since most mages are sorta shy of strong Body or armor, a usual tactic is to use the other char's as shields or cover. If you levitate away, I'm really surprised your baddies don't have the ability to then focus all of their gunfire on you.

[Whipstitch]

So, you're saying that a group of experienced mages can roll through their town and own it?

Nope.


And shadowrun isn't D&D. You don't need a physical tank, and there's really rather few ways of making sure the GM obligingly shoots at the guy who has the most armor anyway short of him trying to solo the fight. If you want fodder, get a drone or summon a big enough spirit. As far as the Levitate thing goes, you can always combine it with Invisibility and in any case it owns the hell out of critters without ranged attacks and allows you to bypass a lot of physical obstacles. It's really quite versatile even if it's not always a perfect solution. Which, really, kind of describes Magicians in general.

[Warlordtheft]

Spells are only so strong as the side using them. I had a ganger do 16P worth of damage to a player from a hunting rifle (without magical suppport). While the party had 2 mages.

I have yet to feel the need to balance out mages by messing with RAW (which I hate doing-as the solution often does as much damage as it repairs). Some RP/Adventure design ways to handle mages:

1. To many targets
2. Back ground count
3. Remember to geek the mage first
4. Snipers
5. Drones, lots of drones.
6. Matrix issues anyone?
7. Opposing mages
8. Higher inititive street sams.
9. Spirits with counterspelling
10. Line of sight shennanigans

[Cheops]

That mage who decides he needs to be the group's melee tank, so he focusses on the physical--how well-equipped will he be to take out that group shooting at him from 100 yards away?

About as effective as the street sam who puts all his eggs into the melee basket. Except the mage can still summon a spirit to help him, which even at F3 is usually still pretty good in close combat. In general Melee is a trap option in SR regardless -- anyone is sub-optimal for focusing on it and is usually doing so for concept reasons. (Edit: oops forgot the options of Shapechange and Possession traditions that make the mage better at melee than the street sam but can still also blast at 100 yards with a 3 bp Stunbolt)

Or what about the mage who decides his group needs a hacker? After he becomes a sufficiently good hacker, does he have anything left to improve his mage abilities?

Yes actually. It is very cheap to be a hacker in SR4. You won't be an uber optimized spell slinger with 20 dice to cast and 11 dice for drain but you'll probably still have 12-14 dice to cast and about 8-10 for drain. It costs 2 bp for a top of the line deck, 40 bp for 2 skill groups, and about 20 bp for programs. 15 for mage, 30 for magic 4, 32 for Spellcasting 4 and Summoning 4, 5 for a mentor spirit, and 12 for a spellcasting focus. That gives our Hacker/Mage dice pools of Hacking stuff 6-8, Spellcasting 8-13, Summoning 8-10 for 156 bps.

Not optimal but still very good in all categories. He'd also have a lot more options than the hacker who is still stuck with the same mundane options that the mage can also use.

[Whipstitch]

I made a Mystic Adept corporate Spider once who nearly caused a TPK by backing up his drones and Sec team with a big Plant Spirit providing Magical Guard.

[Mongoose]

But I am thinking Direct Physical spell are in effect more too much efficient combat wise... make you wonder why to use indirect spells at all.

Because they can affect people you can't see. If you drop an area effect indirect centered in the air just past the top of a barricade, you can get the guys hiding behind the barricade, and they get no cover. Direct spell wouldn't have any effect on them, unless you can see them, and even then you'd have mods for visibility (cover). Meanwhile, those guys are lobbing grenades over the barricade, radioing for help, zeroing in drones, calling up spirits...
For non area effect spells, there's less utility, though secondary effects (fire, acid, electricity) can still be nice.
They can also be handy vs drones / vehicles; no need to whip out 5 successes to have any effect at all. And again, with a secondary effect (typically electricity for vehicles, though acid can also be good) it can do more than simple damage.

[BlueMax]

Spells are only so strong as the side using them. I had a ganger do 16P worth of damage to a player from a hunting rifle (without magical suppport). While the party had 2 mages.

I have yet to feel the need to balance out mages by messing with RAW (which I hate doing-as the solution often does as much damage as it repairs). Some RP/Adventure design ways to handle mages:

1. To many targets
2. Back ground count
3. Remember to geek the mage first
4. Snipers
5. Drones, lots of drones.
6. Matrix issues anyone?
7. Opposing mages
8. Higher inititive street sams.
9. Spirits with counterspelling
10. Line of sight shennanigans

The only ones which are dealing with the mage, and not the party are
2, Half of 9 and 10

10 is exactly <pistol whip> Shenanigans is the correct word. Playing "Chase the modifier" or "Pop goes the weasel" can tire on some players.
The same goes for Background Count. If its used everywhere, you may as well say "Every mage has 2 less Magic" , where two represents a random rank of background count.

So really, its "Make more badguys to overcome the mage" or "Take magic out of the game" , that is offered in these types of lists.

BlueMax

[SpellBinder]

That is because the overcasting rule was poorly conceived: no matter how much wishful thinking is put in the books, overcasting does NOT inflict more drain. If you can soak 7S, you can soak 7P. There are even situations where overcasting is less damaging to the character than normal casting: with a highly damaged Stun monitor and a clean Physical monitor, the mage can be still standing after overcasting whereas he would have crashed to normal drain.

House-rule proposal: overcasting drain remains Stun, but it switches to Force + modifier instead of F/2 + modifier.

One guy I know is running close to that for his runs, feeling that F/2 is too weak to curb rampant spellcasting; overcasting still causes Physical damage AFAIK. Another veteran SR player I know (and a bigger fan of SR3) thinks it's a great idea to knock the F/2 to F instead.

[FireHand]

One guy I know is running close to that for his runs, feeling that F/2 is too weak to curb rampant spellcasting; overcasting still causes Physical damage AFAIK. Another veteran SR player I know (and a bigger fan of SR3) thinks it's a great idea to knock the F/2 to F instead.

Well, as much as I hate this idea and think it's complete paranoia (I still don't see why folks think mages are too powerful), as someone with a scientific mind I would love to see some testing done on this F/2 vs. F idea. Keeping in mind this is a game... in playtesting F + Modifier, is the mage fun to play anymore? Is someone planning on playtesting this out?

[Mongoose]

Or you could have overcasting do physical AND stun damage equal to drain... with each success only offsetting one box of either (one box on either track, casters choice).

[fistandantilus4....]

When SR4 first came out, I played it for a long time with straight Force+Modifier for drain, no divided by 2. I did it as a player, and as a GM. The mages were a lot more careful with what they did, and a lot less likely to go straight to fireballs and the like. Centering was the first metamagic taken, foci were used for drain, and spells were used when they were needed, not at a whim. Magic was dangerous again.

Good times, good times.

[BlueMax]

When SR4 first came out, I played it for a long time with straight Force+Modifier for drain, no divided by 2. I did it as a player, and as a GM. The mages were a lot more careful with what they did, and a lot less likely to go straight to fireballs and the like. Centering was the first metamagic taken, foci were used for drain, and spells were used when they were needed, not at a whim. Magic was dangerous magical again.

Good times, good times.

Fist, please forgive me for correcting your post.

[Whipstitch]

With the normal drain rules I do tend to cast/summon constantly as a Magician, particularly as a cybered hermetic. 12 dice to soak and a Trauma damper can spoil you pretty quick.

[Lanlaorn]

I sincerely hope I never play with any of you "magic fascists". Why shouldn't a Magician be casting constantly? That's the whole point of the character concept, he's a spellcaster. You might as well impose some insane penalties on gun bunnies and street samurai so they can't use their guns and melee "on a whim" as well, after all firefights and close quarters combat need to be made dangerous again. Right?

Railing against magic is just a sign of an unimaginative GM, there are tons of examples of magical security, especially in Street Magic. Any lowly corporate office could have a wage mage in the security department who comes by every other month and sets up a gauntlet of multiple types of wards and patrolling spirits, when signs of magic are detected various levels of response could be deployed, such a Drones (the direct damage spells you hate so much must first overcome their Object Resistance, which the table merely lists as "6+" so use your discretion) or a wage mage miles away sending a spirit out on a remote service to magical guard duty in response to a SOS.

You don't need to have every guard patrol involve a mage providing dedicated counterspell support, just use your heads and think about what cost effective precautions would be taken. Otherwise maybe you should just play a cyberpunk RPG without magic. Punishing your players for not choosing to play the type of character whose mechanics you arbitrarily prefer is ridiculous. Magic is no more over the top lethal than anything else in this game, and fucking with it because you don't like it and/or are lazy just ruins other people's fun in the name of your ego.