Sapient AI, Love em or Hate em Options

[TommyTwoToes]

To be fair, when they first settled there, the ground was still higher and the sea level lower. It's only after the Mannsdränke of the 1300s that they had to fight the sea for land like that. Unlike New Orleans, which was very floodable from the beginning. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Also, they're considering giving up polders one by one and moving into giant ponton houses instead, because that's much less of a bother.

Thats enough out of you, you orange wearing sympathizer. I know you and your windmill ways.

[hermit]

Thats enough out of you, you orange wearing sympathizer. I know you and your windmill ways.

You're so gonna get your ass handed to you in the world cup, America. And then ... ever notice the Dutch flag is almost like Russia's? Yeah. THAT IS NO ACCIDENT.

You just keep on insulting cute windmills, tulips, wooden shoes and tasty gouda. Then you'll get what'S coming to you. Like in Red Dawn. Only Orange. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)

[Tzeentch]

The 6th World has experienced two major Matrix Crashs, each killing (at least) thousands, as well as a whole lot of smaller matrix-related disasters. Emergence told us that based on this experience, people have a latent fear of technology and that the whole thing could come down again...but where are those scared people, actually?

-- Note that to the average citizen there is probably no difference between an AI, a great dragon, or a powerful corporate executive. On a scale of butchery Aden might still have a higher bodycount than Deus and the shenanigans of the corporations are on the news every day while the Arcology shutdown just fades into the past.

[Sengir]

and with the ai's track record NO ONE with the brains of a canned sardine would trust them

Only that people do trust entities which act indistinguishable from an intelligent lifeform, apparently without fearing world domination.

[SkepticInc]

Frankenstein syndrome, To quote a great writer from the last century wire an electromagnetic shotgun to their foreheads if you can't do that destroy them. Humans will not tolerate there own creations jumping them on the food chain and with the ai's track record NO ONE with the brains of a canned sardine would trust them Barks at the moon dog shaman

I think you have too much faith in metahumanity. I posit that an AI smart enough to figure out that the Uncanny Valley is why we hate them might make itself a cute little meat-world avatar with big eyes and a sad little puppy face that would instantly make everyone trust them despite knowing they were Deus.

"You know that thing you are petting there is Deus, right? The one that killed thousands of people in the Renraku Archology?"

"But it's so cuuuuuuuuuuute! Wooket dowes widdle eyes, oh who's the cwutest widdle AI? Yes you are, oh yes you are, you cwutest widdle fing."

"But it's gnawing on you leg. It's eyes are full of malevolence. How can you not see? Oh the humanity!"

[hermit]

I posit that an AI smart enough to figure out that the Uncanny Valley is why we hate them might make itself a cute little meat-world avatar with big eyes and a sad little puppy face that would instantly make everyone trust them despite knowing they were Deus.

Really, that only works on first impression. Also, the major motivation for distrust of AI is their genocidal tendencies displayed repeatedly in the SR universe. Not even cuddlyness will help that.

[SkepticInc]

Really, that only works on first impression. Also, the major motivation for distrust of AI is their genocidal tendencies displayed repeatedly in the SR universe. Not even cuddlyness will help that.

Well, yea. But then I couldn't have written a post with terrible baby-talk in it.

[IceKatze]

hi hi

Looking at the poll results, I imagine if there isn't a policlub type group for the extermination of and one for the preservation of AIs, perhaps there should be. I know Horizon is big on AIs, but who do you suppose would step up if/when there is another AI threat?

[Gamer6432]

My current game has one AI in our party (though none of our characters know it yet). Once they find out... I imagine my character won't care much. The AI's done pretty well for us so far.

[Draco18s]

Vote: other
Explanation: I like the idea, but the rules for making one are confusing and can leave you with something underpowered quite easily.

[SkepticInc]

hi hi

Looking at the poll results, I imagine if there isn't a policlub type group for the extermination of and one for the preservation of AIs, perhaps there should be. I know Horizon is big on AIs, but who do you suppose would step up if/when there is another AI threat?

Something about this should definitely got into a Space supplement, as it seems from this and other conversations that the question of letting an AI off the planet or not is contentious enough to draw blood.

[Rystefn]

Komodo creepiness! They don't use poison, they infect you with their disgusting bleeding gums! And they look like Ghostwalker! Off with their heads!

I see your point.

Yeah, that's not true, and I'm not entirely sure how any biologist ever thought it was. Bacterial infection simply do not ever happen that fast. Therefore, komodo dragons must be using something else to disable/kill their prey with an otherwise nonlethal bite. Turns out the use the same thing everything else in the world that kills/incapacitates with relatively minor injuries uses: venom.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/20...agon-venom.html

Also, I dig the concept of AI, and have used several in my games. Good times were had by all (even if there were a few deaths).

[Tzeentch]

-- I have no problems with AI in Shadowrun per se, they've been a (shadowy) part of the game since first edition. I do not like how they were introduced in Emergence though, and the Resonance stuff is ... well I'm not a fan of magical cyberspace. Perhaps most annoying, many elements of Emergence are introduced, railroaded in, and then just abandoned. What happened to Sojourner for example? The AI dude was threatening global terrorism and then just gets talked down and forgotten? We have another AI on the slowboat to Alpha Centauri (good luck with that).

-- Unwired further clouds the issue because they make no real sense. They count as a single program (so they can fit on a commlink or datajack I suppose), somehow lose cohesion without a home node, seemingly cannot copy themselves, and yet don't actually need a home system to survive. I believe tying them too closely with the (lets face it, magical) Resonance is just going to end up resulting in some ridiculousness down the road.

[SkepticInc]

-- I have no problems with AI in Shadowrun per se, they've been a (shadowy) part of the game since first edition. I do not like how they were introduced in Emergence though, and the Resonance stuff is ... well I'm not a fan of magical cyberspace. Perhaps most annoying, many elements of Emergence are introduced, railroaded in, and then just abandoned. What happened to Sojourner for example? The AI dude was threatening global terrorism and then just gets talked down and forgotten? We have another AI on the slowboat to Alpha Centauri (good luck with that).

-- Unwired further clouds the issue because they make no real sense. They count as a single program (so they can fit on a commlink or datajack I suppose), somehow lose cohesion without a home node, seemingly cannot copy themselves, and yet don't actually need a home system to survive. I believe tying them too closely with the (lets face it, magical) Resonance is just going to end up resulting in some ridiculousness down the road.

Yup. The "no copy" thing really confused me when it popped up in our game the first time. I understand the concept of having something that is too complicated to copy, but the way computers communicate is by making copies of the relevant data on a new node. Maybe these new "AI" are like Free Spirits, and the old AI were closer to the Wraiths of old?

[hermit]

Maybe these new "AI" are like Free Spirits, and the old AI were closer to the Wraiths of old?

Passions in ED. Totems in SR.

-- I have no problems with AI in Shadowrun per se, they've been a (shadowy) part of the game since first edition. I do not like how they were introduced in Emergence though, and the Resonance stuff is ... well I'm not a fan of magical cyberspace. Perhaps most annoying, many elements of Emergence are introduced, railroaded in, and then just abandoned. What happened to Sojourner for example? The AI dude was threatening global terrorism and then just gets talked down and forgotten? We have another AI on the slowboat to Alpha Centauri (good luck with that).

-- Unwired further clouds the issue because they make no real sense. They count as a single program (so they can fit on a commlink or datajack I suppose), somehow lose cohesion without a home node, seemingly cannot copy themselves, and yet don't actually need a home system to survive. I believe tying them too closely with the (lets face it, magical) Resonance is just going to end up resulting in some ridiculousness down the road.

Read Runners Companion already? It introduces different rules. Also, Running Wild introduces feral AI, which are AI without the I, basically. Critters in cyberspace.

I pretty much concur from a meta perspective with you. Emergence is about the worst SR book ever published (not least because it directly contradicts numerous established facts about the Arcology Shutdown, and Arsenal, which claims fallout from the public knowledge of the shutdown as a reason for Raku to radically reengineer their applicance drones - that added to what you brought up). If there would be one sourcebook I'd kick from canon and write off as falsified postings on JP, it's Emergence.

I could also do without Technomancers entirely.

[Mordinvan]

the premise of that story was that the machines attacked pretty much as soon as people found out they were AI. The AI wasn't given a few years to prepare.

Actually in T1 and T2 it was noted the A.I. attacked once humans worked out it was self aware and tried to kill it.

[Mordinvan]

Just rebot the entire matrix. Kills them allright.

Only if they're 'sleeping' at the time. Otherwise, they blink off, then on again, and that is assuming you were able to reboot their specific home node.

Because they were a threat to them. Because they controled the world the AI lives in and the AI would forever be at their mercy. That is why Mirage and Deus did what they did. Thing is, in the SR universe, this already happened. Twice.

And you seem totally against the notion of A.I.'s having their own matrix to play in, so either pick living in peace with them, or don't. But picking war when every war machine on the planet has a matrix hookup is not the wisest decision I've ever heard. Like like a mundane who's been forced into an astral gateway picking a fight with a spirit. You 'could' do it, I'd just recommend against it.

[Mordinvan]

Something about this should definitely got into a Space supplement, as it seems from this and other conversations that the question of letting an AI off the planet or not is contentious enough to draw blood.

The only way to prevent an A.I. from leaving is to either kill them all, or to allow no piece of technology more complicated then a sundial off the planet. Neither are particularly feasible.

[Mordinvan]

-- Unwired further clouds the issue because they make no real sense. They count as a single program (so they can fit on a commlink or datajack I suppose), somehow lose cohesion without a home node, seemingly cannot copy themselves, and yet don't actually need a home system to survive. I believe tying them too closely with the (lets face it, magical) Resonance is just going to end up resulting in some ridiculousness down the road.

I wholly agree with this. A.I.'s should be programs, and nothing more. Given how badly technology interacts with magic, I even find the idea of technomancers nauseating. Either magic and technology CAN interact, or they can't, but to say I can't copy and A.I. because its 'magical', but has no aura, or anything else, just pisses me off.

[Mordinvan]

I could also do without Technomancers entirely.

Well atleast we can agree on something.

[hermit]

But picking war when every war machine on the planet has a matrix hookup is not the wisest decision I've ever heard.

A matrix hookup you can easily turn off.

And you seem totally against the notion of A.I.'s having their own matrix to play in, so either pick living in peace with them, or don't.

As I have stated before, the problem is to not allow an AI to play with world destruction level technology. But you don't seem to get this. Nevermind that I fail to see where you expect people in the 6th world to get a naive worship of AI from that you seem to profess. But to your credit, ever since SR4, people in the 6th world have stopped to make sense (the crash and matrix rebuild makes as much sense as installing block nuclear power plants in every city so everyoone can benefit off nuclear power as a reaction to the Tschernobyl meltdown).

[Sengir]

I do not like how they were introduced in Emergence though

Well, the introduction of AIs was the better half of Emergence - because at least they were not trying to reveal something had already been spelled out two years ago with ZERO indication that this was strictly OOC knowledge and a big mystery ingame...

I believe tying them too closely with the (lets face it, magical) Resonance is just going to end up resulting in some ridiculousness down the road.

The AI-Resonance link was only IC speculation based on what little people knew about AIs during Emergence, it did not appear in any game rules. Although the idea is not exactly new, the old AIs also had some connection to the Deep Resonance.

[Mordinvan]

A matrix hookup you can easily turn off.

Which would leave an army with on really rudimentary communication methods. Not impossible to cope with, but really a bitch if you have to fight someone who doesn't have those restrictions.

As I have stated before, the problem is to not allow an AI to play with world destruction level technology.

Actually its that you don't think they should have a right to exist based on your previous quotes. I believe you said they hadn't earned it yet.

Nevermind that I fail to see where you expect people in the 6th world to get a naive worship of AI from that you seem to profess.

Maybe its not a 'worship', but more a realization that marginalizing an entire sentient population is going to have repercussions you are not going to like in the long run. Doing so to human societies has ALWAYS caused problems, and many of them we are still fixing today. Doing so to a creature who learns, and maintains its world view in the first 18 months of its potentially eternal existence, is going to be a disaster. Teaching something that you hate it for simply existing, especially when it knows, that baring accident or murder, it WILL outlive you, is about as bad an idea as I can imagine. You would be far better off spending that time teaching it you value it BECAUSE it is sentient, and doing what you can to equate sentience, and respect of sentience with being valuable, and hope it takes that lesson to heart.

All the things I've heard people say about the concept of A.I., "they're not alive", "its not racism, their not a species", "their just a program, and the property of whoever wrote them", "They are all dangerous/evil/alien". All of that has been said, in one from or another about various human racial groups at some point. While I will agree some A.I.'s are quite alien, both in outlook, and action, and some are dangerous. The same can be said of some humans, but we do not condemn the whole of humanity for that. When a human murders, we blame the human, not humanity. You however wish to blame taxi cab driving program for the crimes of Deus. Given the cab program had not even been complied until some years after Deus was dead, this is akin to me blaming you for some random crime committed by a random human who likely carries no direct blood relation to you, and died years before you were conceived.

If anything would spark an A.I. vs living war, it won't be the A.I.'s. They exist in the matrix, and in general have no care for a world made of anything other then data. It will be humans who fear them, and hope to win in a first strike scenario.

Congratulations General Genocide, what are you orders?

[hermit]

Which would leave an army with on really rudimentary communication methods. Not impossible to cope with, but really a bitch if you have to fight someone who doesn't have those restrictions.

Because jammers don't exist? The whole wireless fad is easily defeatble.

Actually its that you don't think they should have a right to exist based on your previous quotes. I believe you said they hadn't earned it yet.

Quote it, then. Belief is best left in temples and cemetraries.

Maybe its not a 'worship', but more a realization that marginalizing an entire sentient population is going to have repercussions you are not going to like in the long run. Doing so to human societies has ALWAYS caused problems, and many of them we are still fixing today. Doing so to a creature who learns, and maintains its world view in the first 18 months of its potentially eternal existence, is going to be a disaster. Teaching something that you hate it for simply existing, especially when it knows, that baring accident or murder, it WILL outlive you, is about as bad an idea as I can imagine.

BUG RIGHTS!!! Seriously, all you saifd can be said about free spirits, especially free flesh forms, too. And anthorpomorphising the nonhuman always is a stupid idea. Yeah, it didn't work okay with the West because we developed the idea that all humans are equal. It DID work well for 95% of human recorded history though, and India's caste system is the most stable society that has ever existed, so even there your point does not hold.

You would be far better off spending that time teaching it you value it BECAUSE it is sentient, and doing what you can to equate sentience, and respect of sentience with being valuable, and hope it takes that lesson to heart.

Because fundamentally alien creatures are sure to have the same kind of empathy humans have, especially if they are solitary instead of pack based, where Empathy actually makes sense.

All the things I've heard people say about the concept of A.I., "they're not alive", "its not racism, their not a species", "their just a program, and the property of whoever wrote them", "They are all dangerous/evil/alien". All of that has been said, in one from or another about various human racial groups at some point.

Oh cry me a river. That is anthropomorphising and arrogant and insulting all in one. Not to mention again trying to morally bully me into fanbunnying an RPG concept. That is so out there I don't really know what to replay anymore.

If anything would spark an A.I. vs living war, it won't be the A.I.'s.

Read more, lurk more, post less. Dude, that is bullshit and you ought to know it. So read up if you want to talk AI or shut it.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Because jammers don't exist? The whole wireless fad is easily defeatble.

Compared to SR3 wireless, SR4 wireless is ultrarobust and portable jammers are jokes.