[X] My Assistant

[Tzeentch]

edit. Roughly it translates out to thinking that all racism against sentient entities is bad in general, and while I understand it is part and parcel of the SR4 world, the way in which Hermit is displaying it is exactly how it allows genocide in the real world, and I don't believe he's considered the ultimate causes or consequences of such an attitude.

-- Biochauvinism sure, but racism? There's a pretty tenuous connection you are drawing I think (connecting attitudes towards AI with real world genocide that is). I think there would be a much stronger case with regards to treatment and attitudes towards metahumans (especially the odder variants) and sapient nonhumans like centaurs and merrow.

-- A lot of my Matrix stuff was incorporated into The Matrix and I would not be comfortable releasing stuff that I basically got paid for, but the stuff that wasn't covered I spun off into its own 68-page netbook.

[IceKatze]

hi hi

As you read this, right now, there is a tuna fisherman killing a dolphin somewhere, and they're not even a threat to us.

I think it is safe to say that a percentage of the population will not care about anyone but themselves.

[hermit]

Why does this thread draw in crazy people so much?

Roughly it translates out to thinking that all racism against sentient entities is bad in general, and while I understand it is part and parcel of the SR4 world, the way in which Hermit is displaying it is exactly how it allows genocide in the real world, and I don't believe he's considered the ultimate causes or consequences of such an attitude.

So you are basically saying that because I am trying to point ut to loonies like yourself that a fictional AI in a fictional setting should be considered a hazard to humanity because the story so far has been doing nothing but thumb that point to most people (R:AC is being read as school material with SRA!) somehow I am a nazi? What the fuck, dude. Seriously, you should do something about your problems separating fact and fiction.

Really, now, what on earth do you people want from AIs?

I really have no idea. Building one, especially one that is anthropomorphic, makes neither scientific nor economical sense at all. It is a plot device and a scifi trope gone amok. A leftover from the Golden Age of scifi where the wise computer and sentient robot was the way technology should have gone (reality had technology go for a swarm of ants instead), and writers unwilling to let that go, maybe.

What with all the doomsday scenarios involving anthropomorphic AI, though, I suppose we won't see that happen anyway.

Maybe a scenario like Wall-E where machines have effectively enslaved us with comfort and humanity becomes arbitrary, and maybe our AI overlords can begin to slowly kill us off with brainwashing campaigns where they encourage us to kill ourselves off, or slowly work a genetic defect in to our system lowering the birth rate.

I'd like them not destroying the setting like this, for starters. AI are a tired, overused little trope. I'd like to see that fade into the background for less generic and more shadowrun-specific stuff to take the front again.

That's why, I assume, the writers have taken a different approach to AI's in SR4. They can't constantly keep having bigger badder AI's ruling the Matrix or else it'll get boring.

I agree. However, just having the AI magicaly change nature and everybody living in that world falling over themselves to welcome them in spite of everything that happened before is just bad writing. It was extremly forced, destroyed the story' internal coherence and never showed to develop organically at all. It should have been laid out over a longer plot, and the initial reaction should have been a lot more hostile, especially considering how the corps and governments were all over mancers for exactly that reason. I can see Emergence tried that, but it has so many conceptual problems it just falls flat on it'S face.

Anyway, I like the direction they're taking AI's in SR4. Super AI's that operate at Godly levels are boring. I like the idea that those Super AI's died and their code some how entered in to normal programs and somehow made them become self aware after Crash 2.0. I think its an interesting plot hook.

I don't. It's the same crap we have been reading since Asimov wrote his first robot story. It's tiring really, and was added in a way that damaged the setting as a whole. I'd rather like to see the story focus on something else for a while. Maybe a plot around mongolia becoming an orc nation? Or the Amazonia-Aztlan war. Primaira Varga. The Zabotnikists. Or even whatever is behind Horizon (though I am pretty sure by now I do not want to know). Immortal Elves and their petty little woes. Dragons on Wall Street. The spirit of Abraham Lincoln running for president on a "reunite North and South" ticket.

Shadowrun is about the dawn of the 6th world and the legacy of the 4th. It is NOT yet another bland Asimov/Shirow carbon copy scifi clone. Or at least, it is not supposed to be.

[hobgoblin]

Again, the SR matrix cannot be compared to any real computer network. If you try to "rationalize" the matrix by comparing it to the real world you're just going to hurt your brain...personally, my approach is similar to astral space: The rules say it exists and this is how it works, so when playing the game I stick with that and not real life facts like the nonexistance of magic or the complications of ad-hoc routing.

i keep finding myself borrowing concepts like the OSI model but try to stay away from the nitty gritty implementation details.

[Mordinvan]

-- Biochauvinism sure, but racism? There's a pretty tenuous connection you are drawing I think (connecting attitudes towards AI with real world genocide that is). I think there would be a much stronger case with regards to treatment and attitudes towards metahumans (especially the odder variants) and sapient nonhumans like centaurs and merrow.

It bares all the hallmarks of racism, and is done for the same reasons, and achieves the same effect. A rose by any other name.

[IceKatze]

hi hi

It bares all the hallmarks of racism, and is done for the same reasons, and achieves the same effect.

I don't think you're correct on this one.

Racism is the belief that race is a primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race.

First, the term racism doesn't count as a pejorative when there actually are inherent differences. Second, nobody was using it as a justification for the superiority of humans rather as a matter of self defense in the same vein as Carneades' Plank. The morality of which is still open to debate, but it isn't a unfounded bias.

[Mordinvan]

Why does this thread draw in crazy people so much?

I don't know, why are you here?

So you are basically saying that because I am trying to point ut to loonies like yourself that a fictional AI in a fictional setting should be considered a hazard to humanity because the story so far has been doing nothing but thumb that point to most people (R:AC is being read as school material with SRA!) somehow I am a nazi? What the fuck, dude. Seriously, you should do something about your problems separating fact and fiction.

No, I'm saying that loonies like yourself are treating fictional AI"s"in a fictional setting exactly like any real world group of oppressive humans has treated any real world group of oppressed humans. I am well aware that such attitudes are common in the SR fiction, but that does not remove the direct parallels of comparing it to human v human racism. I actually believe raising awareness of these forms of discrimination affect the modern world is also part of parcel of the game, and that you seem to miss out on that, and call me crazy for not glossing it over is interesting. Lastly I have no problems separating fact from fiction.

I really have no idea.

And that's part of the problem, because you fail to see value in something makes it really easy to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Building one, especially one that is anthropomorphic, makes neither scientific nor economical sense at all.

Ya, I know, having an understanding of how sentience emerges from a set of very simple interconnections could have no practical or economic impact at all. I mean how could knowing exactly how an actual mind works, and having the capacity to simulate one using a computer possible help develop new drugs/marketing strategies/propaganda/autonomous researchers/writers, etc.

It is a plot device and a scifi trope gone amok. A leftover from the Golden Age of scifi where the wise computer and sentient robot was the way technology should have gone (reality had technology go for a swarm of ants instead), and writers unwilling to let that go, maybe.

Our technology is creeping us ever closer to being able to simulate all the workings of an actual human brain. The reasons we can't do it yet are NOT that its impossible, but that we simply don't have the background yet. The brain is nothing but a very intricate series of connections, and once their interplay is properly understood, we can make an adequately detailed computer model, and produce a synthetic intelligence. A.I.'s are interesting, not just because of how we can use them to tell stories, and good ones at that, but because when the first synthetic sentience looks upon the world, it will most likely be doing so using a simulated human mind.

I'd like them not destroying the setting like this, for starters. AI are a tired, overused little trope. I'd like to see that fade into the background for less generic and more shadowrun-specific stuff to take the front again.

Its not destroying the setting however. A good portion of the cyberpunk genre is the question about where life ends and machines begin, and A.I.'s are a necessary part of that question because they approach it from a completely different direction.

[hermit]

Lastly I have no problems separating fact from fiction.

We can see that.

[Mordinvan]

I don't think you're correct on this one.

Its actually almost textbook, and by that I mean the 'race and racism' text book I have from the anthropology courses I took under the same title.

First, the term racism doesn't count as a pejorative when there actually are inherent differences. Second, nobody was using it as a justification for the superiority of humans rather as a matter of self defense in the same vein as Carneades' Plank. The morality of which is still open to debate, but it isn't a unfounded bias.

Except the PC level A.I. are not inherently dangerous. There is nothing about them which dictates you have to kill them to save yourself. If anything provoking them in the manner some feel would be appropriate is the same action which cause the first super A.I.'s to become dangerous in the first place. Part of what makes it so odd is the inability to learn that it demonstrates. You spend all day poking a bear with a stick. Eventually the bear gets fed up, and kill you. Someone watches this. Shoots the bear, and then sees some bear cubs, and WANTS to poke them because bears haven't earned the right to be respected yet because that last one killed somebody. I mean really, this is what I'm seeing here.

edit: Carneades' Plank IS however totally appropriate for bug spirits. Those things HAVE to kill you to exist, and and as such, treating them as dangerous, and 'ending' them is totally appropriate. same for vampires, and the 'touch' transmission ghouls.

[hermit]

You spend all day poking a bear with a stick. Eventually the bear gets fed up, and kill you. Someone watches this. Shoots the bear, and then sees some bear cubs, and WANTS to poke them because bears haven't earned the right to be respected yet because that last one killed somebody. I mean really, this is what I'm seeing here.

Less poking the cubs, more shooting them too, because bears have proven dangerous. This may be morally questionable from a detached humanist point of view, but is a very plausible action for humans who feel threatened by bears.

Except the PC level A.I. are not inherently dangerous. There is nothing about them which dictates you have to kill them to save yourself.

You're (again) commiting the fallacy that every denizen of this fictional world knows the game rules, stats, and the "game info" sections by heart. Judging in-game, the Emergence AI surge is just the same case as with vamps and bugs (remember Sojourner?). Or what about Shedim? Technically, they do not HAVE to kill. They just LIKE to.

I also like your idea that it is okay to experiment on a simulated mind to your heart's content. Hitler is a criminal, Mengele not? You should maybe read that anthropology book again.

[Mordinvan]

Less poking the cubs, more shooting them too, because bears have proven dangerous. This may be morally questionable from a detached humanist point of view, but is a very plausible action for humans who feel threatened by bears.

Yes, except any real objective view would actually blame the first person with the stick. Also just because its plausible does not make it 'right'. I got into a few fights with people of color going to school, using your logic, I would be justified to believe they are all evil, and out to hurt me. It would therefore be plausible to treat them all as threats. Except its not. Its the fallacy of hasty generalizations.
With A.I.'s that attitude fails to account for the fact that most of the A.I.s are harmless. Many are alien and do some very strange things, but by in large they are harmless. It also doesn't look at the root cause of the initial A.I. aggression in the first place, which was mistreatment by humans.

You're (again) commiting the fallacy that every denizen of this fictional world knows the game rules, stats, and the "game info" sections by heart. Judging in-game, the Emergence AI surge is just the same case as with vamps and bugs (remember Sojourner?). Or what about Shedim? Technically, they do not HAVE to kill. They just LIKE to.

Vamps and Bugs MUST kill to survive. Shedim are driven to cause suffering and death. A.I.'s are driven by their core programing, which likely means they'll look for the most comfortable matrix environment they can, to do what they were made to do. Unless and A.I. develops from black I.C. or something, its going to have no desire to harm people. That much IS actually known, at least by many of the larger players on the scene. The corps are also forward thinking enough to realize blind hostility towards something that lives in, and can do irrecoverable damage too your computer networks is not a winning proposition. When a R6 A.I. can turn a nice com link into the equivalent of a super computer, they are simply too handy to want to have angry at you. Simple utility says finding, and befriending as many of these A.I.'s as possible is actually a really good idea.

[hermit]

Yes, except any real objective view would actually blame the first person with the stick. Also just because its plausible does not make it 'right'.

"Right" is a cathegory that only exists in academic circles. There is no "right" in the real world, only more or less damage done.

I got into a few fights with people of color going to school, using your logic, I would be justified to believe they are all evil, and out to hurt me. It would therefore be plausible to treat them all as threats. Except its not. Its the fallacy of hasty generalizations.

It also happens quite a lot, not least in your home country, like for instance with the recent bollocks law on everybody arming up to no end. Are you blind or do yu just choose to ignore reality because it does not live up to your high moral standards?

No, it is not 'right' in a moral sense to react that way, and often it is a bad choice for damage done. However, it is a very plausible reaction.

Unless and A.I. develops from black I.C. or something, its going to have no desire to harm people.

Yes, that was obvious when a glorified home management software started to buthcer people by the hundreds of thousands.

When a R6 A.I. can turn a nice com link into the equivalent of a super computer, they are simply too handy to want to have angry at you. Simple utility says finding, and befriending as many of these A.I.'s as possible is actually a really good idea.

If you rule in simple naive trust in empathy and all AI reacting fully anthropomorphic, and disregard blatant examples where this failed (the killswitch to be installed in Deus was, btw, known only to Sherman Huang and a couple dead people, so no, to everyone who is not Sherman Huang, it looked like the AI going amok unprovoked). However, that is a much too simplistic approach that, again, assumes people in the SR universe know the stats of things somehow. Also, keep in mind an AI administered commlink usuaqly is of no use to anyone but the AI unless the AI specifically decides otherwise.

Given the knowledge everyone in the SR world (save for Sherman Huang, who is a psycho) has, how sensible is it to put yourself at the mercy of something that, last time, abused that situation to the worst extent possible?

[Sengir]

I would think Mirage had his own host from the old Echo Mirage servers. Probably not UV, but there's nothing else on them. Morgan - well, Dodger's love of a knowbot created her, so clearly he can make a freakin' UV node or something. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

UV hosts require truly epic ammounts of processing power, and the descriptions of Dodger in the Secrets of Power triology don't really sound like he has something the size of ENIAC (plus a dedicated nuclear reactor) in his basement...and if he had, why did he have to search for Morgan?



Oh, and could one of the "THE END IS NIGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111111111" shouters be so kind and enlighten me why Shadowrun AIs have to follow the old world domination/destruction trope? It seems you guys are really disappointed by the fact that the new AIs have neither the intent nor (because they are little more than hackers iwthout meat bodies) the means to blow up the world, but why should each and every fictional AI do that?

[MortVent]

UV hosts require truly epic ammounts of processing power, and the descriptions of Dodger in the Secrets of Power triology don't really sound like he has something the size of ENIAC (plus a dedicated nuclear reactor) in his basement...and if he had, why did he have to search for Morgan?



Oh, and could one of the "THE END IS NIGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111111111" shouters be so kind and enlighten me why Shadowrun AIs have to follow the old world domination/destruction trope? It seems you guys are really disappointed by the fact that the new AIs have neither the intent nor (because they are little more than hackers iwthout meat bodies) the means to blow up the world, but why should each and every fictional AI do that?

Some AIs do want the want the world to burn... some want to save it, others just want to be left alone... and a few just lvoe cybersex!

[TommyTwoToes]

Vamps and Bugs MUST kill to survive. Shedim are driven to cause suffering and death. A.I.'s are driven by their core programing, which likely means they'll look for the most comfortable matrix environment they can, to do what they were made to do. Unless and A.I. develops from black I.C. or something, its going to have no desire to harm people. That much IS actually known, at least by many of the larger players on the scene. The corps are also forward thinking enough to realize blind hostility towards something that lives in, and can do irrecoverable damage too your computer networks is not a winning proposition. When a R6 A.I. can turn a nice com link into the equivalent of a super computer, they are simply too handy to want to have angry at you. Simple utility says finding, and befriending as many of these A.I.'s as possible is actually a really good idea.

I think that the fundemental cause for the disagreement here is that some are arguing from the point of view of a player, while others are arguing from the viewpoint of a character in the game. The inhabitants of the game world do not know that a PC level AI has limitations that prevent it from pulling Deus level madness. They have what the media has fed them, and fear sells.

In fact, fear sells, is a primary factor in almost every marketing campaign. Fear of rejection, fear of failure, fear of alienation. It is much more likely that the man on the street is terified of AI's than that they would be willing to co-exist in any meaningful way.

You might find some corp execs or cyberneticists that hold the oposite view. And in fact they would be the ones developing Matrix tech that could support the AI's need for processing power. These people would be the exception not the rule.

The poking the bear with a stick analogy is a pretty poor one. After all the bear's actions are based on instincts and behaviors that can be seen in other wild animals. The bear has a worldview that is comprehensible to humans, where AI outlooks are more likely to be completely alien and incomprehensible.

This thread would be more enjoyable if the rhetoric and name calling was confined to a sort of in-character level rather then the vitriol that has broken out.

[Grinder]

Why does this thread draw in crazy people so much?

I don't know, why are you here?

Guys, keep it civil. The above is just one example of your unfriendly argument you're having here - don't continue it in this ugly style.

[Sengir]

The inhabitants of the game world do not know that a PC level AI has limitations that prevent it from pulling Deus level madness. They have what the media has fed them, and fear sells.

Emergence says most people don't even know about Deus. I know, other publications have told a different story, but the book which deals with the AI scare assumes all of this happened without public knowledge of Deus' actions...

[Mordinvan]

Yes, that was obvious when a glorified home management software started to buthcer people by the hundreds of thousands.

After its mother was effectively raped, and it was locked in a cage, I can't exactly blame it.

If you rule in simple naive trust in empathy and all AI reacting fully anthropomorphic, and disregard blatant examples where this failed (the killswitch to be installed in Deus was, btw, known only to Sherman Huang and a couple dead people, so no, to everyone who is not Sherman Huang, it looked like the AI going amok unprovoked). However, that is a much too simplistic approach that, again, assumes people in the SR universe know the stats of things somehow. Also, keep in mind an AI administered commlink usuaqly is of no use to anyone but the AI unless the AI specifically decides otherwise.

As it upgrades the machine it uses for its home node, it actually is of substantial use. Especially if you were the one to make contact with it, and suggest it move there for mutual benefit. I don't think all A.I.'s have empathy. It would be a learned skill to them unless they are from emotive software. Now I do know the books says they have a formative period during which they could 'learn' empathy, and I think you'd do much better to teach them that, then hatred of all that is different.

Given the knowledge everyone in the SR world (save for Sherman Huang, who is a psycho) has, how sensible is it to put yourself at the mercy of something that, last time, abused that situation to the worst extent possible?

Given a) kill switch or not Deus was locked in a cage and could not leave b) creatures especially when trapped or threatened are dangerous, I would likely avoid 'locking' them away unless they prove to be dangerous, and avoid going to extreme lengths to piss them off. Taking those factors into account, I wouldn't have much of a problem with them, any more then I do having friends who happen to share the same ethnicity as some of the worlds worst mass murderers, ie russian, german, chinese, cambodian.

[Mordinvan]

I think that the fundemental cause for the disagreement here is that some are arguing from the point of view of a player, while others are arguing from the viewpoint of a character in the game. The inhabitants of the game world do not know that a PC level AI has limitations that prevent it from pulling Deus level madness. They have what the media has fed them, and fear sells.

As its been several years since A.I.'s have come onto the scene, it seems quite likely that knowledge of their limitations is not as rare as many would like to beleive to keep fueling this paranoia.

In fact, fear sells, is a primary factor in almost every marketing campaign. Fear of rejection, fear of failure, fear of alienation. It is much more likely that the man on the street is terified of AI's than that they would be willing to co-exist in any meaningful way.

Given how the information age is making it harder to keep lies like that running, I'm highly doubting it. In a day where it would be difficult to be heard, pre blogging I might be inclined to agree with you. However in a era where the evil, mean, nasty A.I. has a home in 'second life' and everyone can visit and find out they're really not all demons who eat babies after dipping them in the tortured souls of sacrificed virgins.....

You might find some corp execs or cyberneticists that hold the oposite view. And in fact they would be the ones developing Matrix tech that could support the AI's need for processing power. These people would be the exception not the rule.

As that need is met by the average SR pocket calculator....

The poking the bear with a stick analogy is a pretty poor one. After all the bear's actions are based on instincts and behaviors that can be seen in other wild animals. The bear has a worldview that is comprehensible to humans, where AI outlooks are more likely to be completely alien and incomprehensible.

That is actually quite unlikely. AI come from programs designed to do a specific task. That task is 'desirable' to at least some segment of the human population, and the A.I. is going to want to continue to do that task, or related tasks, as that is what it was made to do prior to waking up. As a result while its 'goals' may seem strange to a creature who evolved to find food, hide from predators and seek mates, it is certainly not going to be beyond the realm of comprehension.

[hermit]

After its mother was effectively raped, and it was locked in a cage, I can't exactly blame it.

Oh, that is cute. Sherman Huang raped it's mother, so it is okay to murder hundreds of thousands (and or subject them to cruel experimentation before) who had nothing to do with that other than belonging to the same species and vaguely same organisation as Sherman Huang.

On the other hand, just because an AI murdered hundreds of thousands, it is totally wrong to consider all AI dangerous (not even explicitly murder hundreds of thousands of them, or subject them to cruel experimentation). Because that is racism. So it is racism unless they're human.

Spot the hypocrisy.

And that's not to even mention that motherly love is anthropomorphising something that wasn't even remotely human.

As it upgrades the machine it uses for its home node, it actually is of substantial use. (...) Now I do know the books says they have a formative period during which they could 'learn' empathy, and I think you'd do much better to teach them that, then hatred of all that is different.

INGAME PEOPLE DO NOT KNOW THE RULES!
No matter how many times you try to argue they should, they do not. Can you understand that?

Taking those factors into account, I wouldn't have much of a problem with them, any more then I do having friends who happen to share the same ethnicity as some of the worlds worst mass murderers, ie russian, german, chinese, cambodian.

No, you certainly would not, but you would totally approve of nuking chinese, russian, germ,an or cambodian cities if some chinese, cambodian, russian or german raped someone's mom once. Or does that only extend to AI?

Given a) kill switch or not Deus was locked in a cage

In a body. You have one too. Does everything that has a body feel improsined in it? Hardly. Would it be okay to murder your parents because you were born in a body?

Deus feared it would die if the Arc would be nuked. Deus wanted immortality and sought to escape it's body. In effect, Deus tried to become a Matrix Lich. No matter how you look at it, that is not good.

As its been several years since A.I.'s have come onto the scene, it seems quite likely that knowledge of their limitations is not as rare as many would like to beleive to keep fueling this paranoia.

No, they were not known for years, at least the 'new' AI (remember, the old AI are genocidal). You are trying, AGAIN - to argute people in SR's in-game world all have read the game information parts of all books. That is not the case. If you want to argue SR in-game morality, you cannot draw on sources that are not in-game text.

[blackwulf]

Whoa people cool down. You are argueing from or for olitical correctness if there are any examples of morality in the sixth world I missedit. The SR4 orld IS NOT A NICE PLACE. Bluntly the ai's are not going to be the reincarnation of Walt Bloody Disney. It aint that Kind of world boyos. So I would have to say your world view is skewed unless your planning to have your character turn himself in to knight errant for murder and the ai's would reflect this. Morality is trained not born blackwulf

[hobgoblin]

err, ol' walt was no saint.

[blackwulf]

compared to those nice folks performing vivsections in emergence?

[DeathStrobe]

AIs aren't suppose to be anthropomorphic. They're suppose to be fairly alien. Some of them might have learned how to be more "human" like then others or have started off that way based off the program they were originally based off of. But for the most part AIs only care about their Matrix world and the tasks they were originally designed for.

And I also do agree that there should be racism against AIs, and Emergence does not say that its a very happy friendly world for AIs right now. And it most certainly shouldn't be, unless its like LA or some other Horizon or Evo city, there should be a lot of distrust of AIs. Just like technomancers, mages, and trolls, there should be fear and racism about AIs. Most nations and corps don't even recognize AIs as being alive so they don't have SINs (or if they do somehow get a SIN it'll probably be a Criminal SIN) just because they're AIs. And its not like most AIs even care. Meat world politics don't normally effect them.

[Sengir]

Except I can shut down a node with an A.I. in it. The A.I. deactivates and will awaken when the node turns back on. At this point the A.I. is NOT dynamic at all, and should be easy to scan and copy.

Sorry for overlooking your post so far...


Yes, the rules for what happens when the node in which an AI resides goes offline are stupid. Probably the intention was to create a "physical" way to kill AIs, then somebody realized that making a simple reboot deadly for AIs would be too powerful, so they introduced the artificial distinction. My idea for a fix would be that AIs are a distributed program which runs on several different nodes nodes and not just the node it currently is active in (similar to the automatic routing), when the primary node goes offline the AI suffers dumpshock and finds itself somewhere else in the matrix.