Karmagen Metatype cost, Need Explanation Options

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

Wrong (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
You simply spent 30 Karma for being an Elf and you start with AGI 2 and CHA 3
Raising it like usual according to the Karma Rules (Raising your CHA to 4 is 4x5=20 Karma).You may spend 375 & 30 Pts for your Attributes.

Hough!
Medicineman

So, besides looking like half of the world's population, what is the benefit of playing as Human with karmagen?
It's an honest question.

[Cabral]

Free feat at 1st level? Wait....

Under karmagen, do they still start with 2 edge, making them still the only race that gets something for nothing?

[Ol' Scratch]

Humans receive a +1 to Edge as a racial trait. It's not an adjustment to their min/max ratings.

[Medicineman]

So, besides looking like half of the world's population, what is the benefit of playing as Human with karmagen?
It's an honest question.

Hmmmmm,well,
I'm not really sure if there is a benefit in Karmagen,might even be none in it.
There is a lot that speaks for playing a Human in SR,but its got nothing to do with the Karmageneration or the BP System.
What is the benefit of playing a Nightone or an Oni in Karmagen (or in BP for that matter ?)
Do You only play a Char if there is a benefit ?

with a beneficial Dance
Medicineman

[Wandering One]

Humans receive a +1 to Edge as a racial trait. It's not an adjustment to their min/max ratings.

Incorrect.

Edge
Improving a character’s Edge costs 10 BP per +1 increase (25 BP for
raising it to its natural maximum). The metatype maximum for Edge
is 6 (7 for humans).

[Ol' Scratch]

Then I guess they can secretly start with an Edge of 8, because they do, in fact, get a +1 to Edge as their racial trait. "Human Metatype Abilities: +1 Edge" p. 81, same book.

[Medicineman]

Then I guess they can secretly start with an Edge of 8, because they do, in fact, get a +1 to Edge as their racial trait. "Human Metatype Abilities: +1 Edge" p. 81, same book.

Is that some Kind of special American Humour ?
because I don't get It.To me it Reads like the Start of a Rant ....
But maybe I'm misunderstanding something

with a clarifying Dance
Medicineman

[Ol' Scratch]

I'm just saying they don't have an Edge attribute of 2/7. They have a +1 to Edge as a racial bonus, just like Trolls get +1 to Reach or Elves get Low Light Vision. Their min/max is 1/6 like everyone else; they just get to add +1 to it when they're done buying it.

[Medicineman]

I'm just saying they don't have an Edge attribute of 2/7.
But that is exactly what Humans have !
they Start with an Edge of 2 ,to Raise it to 3 it costs the usual 3x5 =15 Karma

HokaHey
Medicineman

[Ol' Scratch]

No. The +1 bonus to Edge is a special ability of Humans. It is not an Edge minimum/maximum of 2/7. If it were, that's what would be listed on the chart. They get a +1 bonus to Edge. Not an Edge of 2 that they can raise to 7 like, say, an Elf's Agility attribute. If it were, yet again, that's what would be listed on the chart.

[Wandering One]

No. The +1 bonus to Edge is a special ability of Humans. It is not an Edge minimum/maximum of 2/7. If it were, that's what would be listed on the chart. They get a +1 bonus to Edge. Not an Edge of 2 that they can raise to 7 like, say, an Elf's Agility attribute. If it were, yet again, that's what would be listed on the chart.

Are you being blind, or just ornery? The rule I cited above specifically DECLARES the human max edge attribute is *7*. Explicitly.

[Ol' Scratch]

No, it says that's the max rating during character creation courtesy of their +1 bonus. At no point does it state a change to their Attribute Minimum, Attribute Maximum, or Augmented Maximum for Edge. I can show you two separate tables that actually do specifically state that they simply get a +1 to Edge as opposed to an altered rating range. Those charts are SR4A p. 81 and RC p. 70.

That's two separate tables, printed at different times, and one of which carried through to a whole new revision of the main source book. Just to drive the point home, here's the actual excerpt from those three charts:

CODE

BP Metatype BOD    AGI    REA    STR    CHA    INT    LOG    WIL    INI
0  Human    1/6(9) 1/6(9) 1/6(9) 1/6(9) 1/6(9) 1/6(9) 1/6(9) 1/6(9) 2/12(18)
Human Metatype Abilities: +1 Edge

As opposed to, say, an entry like this one.

CODE

BP Metatype BOD     AGI    REA    STR     CHA    INT    LOG    WIL    INI
20 Ork      4/9(13) 1/6(9) 1/6(9) 3/8(12) 1/5(7) 1/6(9) 1/5(7) 1/6(9) 2/12(18)
Ork Metatype Abilities: Low-Light Vision

Notice how the Ork doesn't have a +3 to Body or +2 to Strength? Yeah, there's a reason for that: Except in the singular case of Humans, none of the base metatypes gain bonuses to their any of their attributes. This is a unique trait of being a Human, as clearly shown on the table. Are you blind or just ornery because it's different than what you've been assuming all this time?

If anything's wrong, it's that one little line of text you referenced. And instead of necessarily bbeing wrong, that line of text means that Humans can actually start with an Edge of 8 without any special qualities or outside help. A purchased maximum of 7, +1. (Which is hogwash.)

[Udoshi]

Yeah, uh, scratch, you're full of it.

In your table, if Edge were a statline next to initiative, humans -would read- 2/7, just like every other race with a stat bonus. Unfortunately, special attributes don't have a table.
What you are arguing, essentially, is that that Ork in your example does not get low-light vision.
He gets low light vision, but when you look at the relevant section of the book that -says- what that metatype ability does, it somehow magically vanishes and randomly doesn't apply.

The human entry -says- it gets +1 edge, and elaborates on the conditions of it later. It also explicitly says "The metatype maximum for Edge, is 6 (7 for humans)."
Not 'metatype maximum during character creation'. Unless you're magically going to argue that natural and augmented maximum limits disappear as soon as the game begins, because that's not the case.

But yeah, you're wrong. Just think of human's edgeboost as Metagenetic Improvement (edge). Raises the min and max by 1.

[Ol' Scratch]

Really.

Show me where it states that a Human's Edge starts at 2 and its Augmented Maximum is 10 then. I'd even be happy if you could show me where it tells you when to apply that +1 to Edge. Which, again, is "+1 Edge," not "+1 to Edge's minimums and maximums." I'll be waiting quietly over here while you do so.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

Hmmmmm,well,
I'm not really sure if there is a benefit in Karmagen,might even be none in it.
There is a lot that speaks for playing a Human in SR,but its got nothing to do with the Karmageneration or the BP System.

What is the benefit of playing a Nightone or an Oni in Karmagen (or in BP for that matter ?)
Do You only play a Char if there is a benefit ?

with a beneficial Dance
Medicineman

As they are right now? None, they are extremely easy to spot (unless playing as Oni on Japan, Korea or anywhere with heavy Japanese population) and they cost more than a SURGED main metahuman strain for the same ability.
It is as someone said, if you want to make sacrifices for the sake of coolness, roleplay, whatever, fine...
But in this case humans really get the short stick, not only the other races start with higher stats, they may spend even more points in these stats...

[Gamer6432]

Really.

Show me where it states that a Human's Edge starts at 2 and its Augmented Maximum is 10 then. I'd even be happy if you could show me where it tells you when to apply that +1 to Edge. Which, again, is "+1 Edge," not "+1 to Edge's minimums and maximums." I'll be waiting quietly over here while you do so.

So, by your reckoning, a human buying 6 in Edge is wasting his points, since the book also states you cannot exceed your maximum edge.

Note that you may never have more Edge points than your full Edge attribute—luck
only counts if you use it.

And just in case you missed it, I'll bold it for you.

Edge
Improving a character’s Edge costs 10 BP per +1 increase (25 BP for
raising it to its natural maximum). The metatype maximum for Edge
is 6 (7 for humans).

[Doc Byte]

So, by your reckoning, a human buying 6 in Edge is wasting his points, since the book also states you cannot exceed your maximum edge.

Note that you may never have more Edge points than your full Edge attribute—luck
only counts if you use it.

Unless a Great Dragon enters the stage. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/lick.gif)

---

@ Human Edge:

Lucky

This quality allows a character to possess an Edge attribute one point higher than his metatype maximum. (For example, a human character could raise his Edge to 8.) [...]

And spezial attributes do not have an augmented maximum!

[Mäx]

Notice how the Ork doesn't have a +3 to Body or +2 to Strength? Yeah, there's a reason for that:

Yeah and the reason for that is that the table actually has an entry for those stats and doesnt have one for edge, so that had to be listed seperatly.
And becouse you'rr apparently completly blind and missed these in page 82 of SR4A and page 73 of the original BBB

Characters also start with
a value of 6 in Essence, 1 in Edge (2 for humans)

and

metatype maximum for Edge
is 6 (7 for humans)

Can you finnally agree that your wrong or do you need even more proof.

[tagz]

SR4A p82 Under "Purchase Attributes"

All characters start with the minimum attributes as noted for their metatype on the Metatype Attribute Table (as Funk showed us). Characters also start with a value of 6 in Essence, 1 in Edge (2 for humans), and a value of 0 in Magic and Resonance. Initiative is a derived value and is not calculated until after attribute values have been finalized.

It is right there saying to change the human's attribute minimum for Edge to 2. Later on it elaborates on the maximums for Edge of 6 for metatypes and 7 for humans. It's not on the table but it clearly spelled out the maximums and minimums for human's Edge.

[Falconer]

To OP:
Short of severe house ruling, karmagen as published (even the german version) is broken.

As others have pointed out... why bother EVER taking a human... when you can take Orc and give it human looking and still come out massively ahead in stats. All those 'discounts' that humans are supposed to get all the other races get as well (and they pay no penalties for penalized attributes). The balancing factor completely fails to balance if the orc/troll/whatever simply doesn't buy up their racial stats but instead spends them like a human elsewhere and takes the freebie points to the bank.


My houserule suggestion to keep it simple (KISS).
Have ALL character buy all attributes up from 1 (then up to 6). Then afterwards apply karma cost for race == to BP cost. Then apply all attribute mods positive and negative of that template to the character in the same way as if they were cyber/bio.

This means that it costs the same for a troll w/ average stats as it does for a human w/ average stats (not including the racial kicker cost which gains things like armor/reach/thermo vision, and some much higher than human attribute caps). No 'special' rules then allowing metas to spend more on attributes than non-metas (even when they don't use them to buff up above average stats).

EG: Average Orc...
225 karma == 3's in everything including edge.
20 karma == ork racial template.
Final Stats: Bo:3(6), Ag:3,Rea:3, Str:3(5),Cha:3(2),Int:3,Log:3(2),Wil:3, Edg:3

Any further advancements to stats are bought normally.. IE: 20 karma to raise base bod from 3->4(7), or 20 karma to raise from Cha 3(2) -> 4(3).

You can also see, that leaves a lot of room in karma to add special stat like magic, or raise other stats up a bit while still sliding under the 375 half-karma limit. (perfectly average still left 150 karma to spend on attributes).

[Ol' Scratch]

All characters start with the minimum attributes as noted for their metatype on the Metatype Attribute Table (as Funk showed us). Characters also start with a value of 6 in Essence, 1 in Edge (2 for humans), and a value of 0 in Magic and Resonance. Initiative is a derived value and is not calculated until after attribute values have been finalized.

Most of those references are in regards to the BP system, in which it doesn't matter if you're buying them before or after applying the +1 bonus. At no point, ever, do they say that the Human bonus is a boost to Edge's minimum and maximum ratings. If that were the case, it would be as simple as either adding another column to the table (it's not like there's no room available), OR just listing the ability as "Edge 2/7(10)." Instead, it's specifically listed as +1 Edge in both the core rulebook and the Runner's Companion.

The reference you specifically mention comes from the Karma Generation system... which, to my knowledge, was written by Ancient History. Who, on many, many occasions, has gotten very simple concepts completely screwed up and has manipulated them to suit his vision rather than adhering to the original philosophy. Note that this is the same paragraph that applies the total limit on Physical, Mental, and Special Attributes, too. The whole thing is rife with mistakes and failed judgment calls based, by and large, on a weak understanding of the rules. Which has always been a vulnerability for him. He should stick to fluff. That's what he does well. Let other people handle the rules. Hell, he still doesn't get why the total point limit is a mistake and overly punishing to mages and technomancers alone and no one else, and the current FAQs are a shining example of just how flawed his understanding of the rules (or more specifically, the philosphy behind them) are.

And do you know why? Because it leads to stupid arguments like this one, where the intent is as crystal clear as it comes: "+1 Edge." It doesn't get any simpler than that. Especially since if it did work the way people so desperately want it to work, the exact same word count would have fixed the whole thing up with "Edge 2/7(10)" or even "Edge 2/7" or "Edge 2/7(7)" instead. Though I don't see the point in the latter as there aren't any other Edge augmentations anyway.

[Cabral]

Scratch,
Perhaps the reason edge is excluded from the table is the partial purpose of the table is to list the augmented maximum for attributes. If there is no way to augment edge or if there is maximum, that may justify the omission from the table. 2/7(7) might look out of place and possibly even confuse some players.

I don't see any advantage in treating humans' edge bonus as you suggest, particularly when in deviates from how other attributes are handled.

[Glyph]

So, besides looking like half of the world's population, what is the benefit of playing as Human with karmagen?
It's an honest question.

To compare the others:
Elves cost 30 Karma, and have net Attribute bonuses of 25 compared to a human. They can spend more on Attributes, though, and can raise two of them higher. But Attribute cost increases the higher you go. To get a Charisma of 7 for the elf costs 110 karma, compared to 70 for the human to have a Charisma of 5. So the elf can be better in certain niches, but the human will be more well-rounded. Elves have a bit more room to grow, and don't have any big offsetting disadvantages.

Dwarves cost 25 karma, and have net Attribute bonuses of 35 compared to a human. They have the same problem as elves, with higher Attributes costing more. Sure, you can just keep them lower, but overall, choosing dwarf as a metatype has saved you a whopping 10 karma. And dwarves have penalties to reaction, have a lower movement rate, and need some gear specially made for them. Not saying they aren't fun to play, but from a purely min-maxing point of view, not worth it.

Trolls cost 40 Karma, and have net Attribute bonuses of 130 compared to a human. You save a lot, point-wise, if you start out with minimal physical stats. But they have serious mental Attribute penalties, and raising Body and Strength becomes almost prohibitively expensive at higher levels (who wants to spend 150 karma to get a Body of 9?). They can still make decent combat types - raising Body and Strength to 7, a decent level, is more feasible (slightly less expensive than a human raising those stats to 5), and augmentations can raise them from there. Or you can make a more cerebrally oriented character (mage, hacker, etc.), quite a deal if you don't mind the lower caps for mental stats. All in all, though, there remain lots of roles that I would find a human to be a better choice for, even if they are not as optimal, purely points-wise. Also, keep in mind that their size can be a problem, and that, like dwarves, they need to have some gear specially modified for them.

Orks cost 20 Karma, and have net Attribute bonuses of 60 compared to a human. Orks don't have the size/special gear problems of trolls, and a Body of 4 and Strength of 3 is right at the sweet spot. Their mental Attribute penalties are not as severe, either. Orks are probably, min-maxing wise, the best option - not noticeably more than in BP, though (where they have a net 20 BP gain, and can buy higher Attributes with a flat cost). To be brutally honest, they are the metatype where you are likeliest to say "I need 20 more points or so to create this character concept - I'll make it an ork!"

Humans remain pretty versatile. Their biggest problem (in karmagen) is that special Attributes being included in the 375 point cap hits them the hardest, because they have no Attribute bonuses and get no extra points to spend on Attributes.

[Falconer]

Almost exactly Glyph. The lumping of special attribs in there on top of giving metas more points to spend was a bit too much.


I disagree slightly on the elf vs. human and cost adjustments... as those enhanced attribute caps are very costly if you were human and bought them normally (how many points for enhanced attribute AND the freebie rank in the attribute..). The crux of the problem was the decision to buy stats using karma AFTER the racial mods necesitated higher allowances (there's absolutely no way around it if spent after racial mins). And penalties are only penalties if you intend to raise them to the cap in chargen (or later). For most chars... 3 CHA is perfectly fine... and unlike racial attribute boosts (which raise both cap and the min stat). Penalities only lower the cap... but give the exact same 'discounts' for low stats that humans are supposed to enjoy... effectively they're not really penalized for most people.


An 'average elf' as opposed to an 'average troll' as opposed to an 'average dwarf'.... the point costs should be roughly equivalent (w/ some allowance for racial perks), but they're nowhere close. By average, I mean a 'flat' statline w/ base stats +2 (or +3) across the board for comparison sake.

[Mäx]

The reference you specifically mention comes from the Karma Generation system... which, to my knowledge, was written by Ancient History. Who, on many, many occasions, has gotten very simple concepts completely screwed up and has manipulated them to suit his vision rather than adhering to the original philosophy. Note that this is the same paragraph that applies the total limit on Physical, Mental, and Special Attributes, too. The whole thing is rife with mistakes and failed judgment calls based, by and large, on a weak understanding of the rules. Which has always been a vulnerability for him. He should stick to fluff. That's what he does well. Let other people handle the rules. Hell, he still doesn't get why the total point limit is a mistake and overly punishing to mages and technomancers alone and no one else, and the current FAQs are a shining example of just how flawed his understanding of the rules (or more specifically, the philosphy behind them) are.

So you really are totally blind or did you just ignore my post on purpose becouse it show that your completdly wrong with page numbered quotes from both the original and anniversary edition of the corebook.
One of those quotes saying exactly what you here blaim being from RC.