Karmagen Metatype cost, Need Explanation Options

[Saint Sithney]

Doc Funk and I have our occasional differences of opinion. The limitation on special attributes was deliberate in order to cultivate less powerful, more diverse characters. Since there is always some way to min-max the system, the ideal is to design the system so that min-maxing doesn't break it...and, well, mixed results.

I just can't see how you can reconcile the fact that the prices for attributes nearly doubled while the cap stayed the same.
I guess you could view it as magikers and mancers being naturally lazy since they can fall back on their power to cruise by in most situations, but... come on. Some sort of concession needs to be made for the Att cost increase.

[Glyph]

I disagree slightly on the elf vs. human and cost adjustments... as those enhanced attribute caps are very costly if you were human and bought them normally (how many points for enhanced attribute AND the freebie rank in the attribute..). The crux of the problem was the decision to buy stats using karma AFTER the racial mods necesitated higher allowances (there's absolutely no way around it if spent after racial mins). And penalties are only penalties if you intend to raise them to the cap in chargen (or later). For most chars... 3 CHA is perfectly fine... and unlike racial attribute boosts (which raise both cap and the min stat). Penalities only lower the cap... but give the exact same 'discounts' for low stats that humans are supposed to enjoy... effectively they're not really penalized for most people.

Personally, I think exceptional attribute is an over-costed quality. But that is what I meant when I said that elves had more room to grow. In karmagen, their biggest advantage isn't the higher caps, but the fact that they don't have the same explicit disadvantages of other metatypes (lower Attribute caps in other areas, requiring special gear, etc.), and they can spend 435 points compared to the 375 a human can (and they start out with two stats already boosted). So even though they come out 5 karma behind a human, purely cost-wise, they have advantages over a human whether they take advantage of their higher Attribute caps or not.

They still seem relatively balanced compared to a human, to me personally, because I usually do soft-max one or both of their advantaged stats. So my elves are generally better speed sammies or faces, but not as versatile as a human build.

Orks, though, have two stats that are in a good spot, where even for a street samurai you don't need to raise them that much, so (for me, at least) they are far more likely to be taken for a purely numerical boost over a human - you might not have higher Body or Strength than what a human can get, but you have a significant net gain in points, and between the significant Attribute boost and being able to spend 415 points on Attributes, your stats will be more robust than a human's.

Overall, though, the German errata seems to make them about as balanced as they were in Build Points. Because elves and orks are almost exactly the same, in BP. Elves are a good choice for higher caps, more effective points you can put into Attributes, and no disadvantages like the other metatypes have. If anything, karmagen makes them weaker. In build points, a Charisma of 7 costs them 40 points, the same as a human with Charisma of 5. Orks are a good choice because they get a significant numerical boost, and have less crippling disadvantages than trolls or dwarves. They are even better in karmagen, if only because it is easier to leave their Body and Strength at a minimal level.

Just pointing out that character creation was not that balanced in build points, either, and karmagen doesn't really exacerbate the problem that much. Actually, humans can come out better in karmagen. Take a human with the following stats:
B: 5, A: 5, R: 5, S: 3, C: 2, I: 3, L: 2, W: 3, basically a typical sammie build. That would be the full 200 points in build points. In karmagen, it is 305 points. So if you leave Edge at 2, you could either get Magic of 5 (for an adept), or boost the core stats by 70 karma. The former makes them weaker than build points (where you could have those stats, and have high Edge and Magic if you didn't mind spending the points). The latter makes mundane builds slightly more flexible.

They are still more screwed if they want to be awakened, especially if they would like to have decent stats and Magic and a high Edge. But that is the biggest weakness of karmagen - it is not as uniformly flexible, or scalable, as build points. Some options are prohibitively expensive, while others (such as free spirits) become too powerful.

[Ancient History]

I just can't see how you can reconcile the fact that the prices for attributes nearly doubled while the cap stayed the same.
I guess you could view it as magikers and mancers being naturally lazy since they can fall back on their power to cruise by in most situations, but... come on. Some sort of concession needs to be made for the Att cost increase.

The caps were originally designed with Att x 5 in mind, because I knew the fix was in, so to speak. The problem is that RC came out before SR4a, so it was changed to Att x 3.

[Falconer]

Small point,

Your cost benefit is only including stat-lines. It's ignoring the other perks like low-light/thermo, reach, armor... (which is also very important to a mage or adept who's not cybering up or getting eyes).

Night vision is a 5point (10karma) quality in it's own right out of runner's companion. So now you can toss even more out there. Cybereyes cost only slighlty less (plus essence).



Your example, also demonstrates only half of it. Yes the human comes out better than under BP, since all those low mental stats aren't costing/penalized as much as BP does. Though once again, we make it an ork... spend extra 10 karma saved on attributes on "Human looking". And once again the Log & cha hits mean absolutely nothing... as the char pays no extra cost to raise those stats over the human, he gets the full discount and gets a minor cap imposed that doesn't really affect him. Now in addition to the karma saved from not having to raise bod/str... the ork also gets insult to injury by being allowed to spend 40 karma more on attributes. In this case, you could have that stat line, a high edge, and start w/ a Mag6 w/ the savings for a phys-ad.


The problem from the BP system is that costs don't scale w/ rank, while under the character advancement system they do. So it encourages maxing out certain attributes while minimizing others so that karma costs to advance later aren't so bad. (this is made worse by how limited karma tends to be in play in the typical game). This has always been the central problem of the two. I've been explicitly only looking at meta-meta differences in cost under karma (and not comparing to BP) and trying to address that problem.


In fact, if you do the conversion costs... (each stat point costs less than under BP until you go over rank 4... and even then... if you accept rank 4 as the 'mean bp/karma ratio (close enough)'... rank 3 + rank 5 average out to it... so the lower ranks 'subsidize' the costs of the higher ranks. (and rank 2, subsidizes rank 6 back to the mean). The only time this breaks down is if you start going over 6... and then there are multiple 'dump' attributes to spread the cost savings subsidy across.

Effectively this means a troll even buying up his monster bod attribute, can 'subsidize' each point w/ a 1->2 raise for each mental stat, then a 2->3 raise. Or buy up mental attributes he'd normally never consider under BP after devoting the majority of his 200 to physical stats. And quite frankly... in terms of cost, there's very little difference between a troll raising twice (75karma) to get bod7, and a human raising 4 times to get bod5 (70 karma). Though the human can't just leave his str sitting at starting value of 5 like the troll can.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Humans receive a +1 to Edge as a racial trait. It's not an adjustment to their min/max ratings.

Edited... Looks like there were others that handled Doc's orneriness already...

Keep the Faith

[Ol' Scratch]

So you really are totally blind or did you just ignore my post on purpose...

No, I'm disagreeing with your take on things and what the text you refer to is actually saying. In the build point system there's zero difference between the cost of Edge 7 and Edge 6+1, or Edge 3 and Edge 2+1, etc. There's also no reason whatsoever to list it as "+1 Edge" except in the case where it actually is a +1 to Edge. There are numerous examples of where they use different terminology when talking about modifying the minimum/maximum ratings, most notably Metagenic Improvement.

Disagree with me as much as you like. I'll be doing the same in regards to this topic if for no other reason than Humans need a perk, especially in the Karma Generation system where its the only time it matters one iota how its handled.

[Mäx]

No, I'm disagreeing with your take on things and what the text you refer to is actually saying.

What part of "start with 2 and have maximum of 7" you don't understand, becouse to me that pretty damm simple rules statement.

[Saint Sithney]

What part of "start with 2 and have maximum of 7" you don't understand, becouse to me that pretty damm simple rules statement.

Sometimes you've got to let a dude run his game the way he wants to.
If scratch wants to give Humans a 5 karma bonus through edge, so what? Humans could use the boost.

[MJBurrage]

Except that Ol' Sctrach's interpretation gives most humans more than 5 free karma. The table below is based on:

• Orginal: All attributes start at 1 for free. Pay New×3 to raise them, Humans must raise Edge to 2, and may raise it to 7.
• Errated: All pay karma to be their race (humans pay 0), and get their minimums for free. Cost to raise Attributes is New×5.
• Ol'Scratch: Humans buy up Edge from 1 to as high as 6, and then get a free point added on. I.E. the most expensive point is free.

CODE

Edge Original Errated Ol'Scratch
1 N/A N/A N/A
2 6 0 0
3 15 15 10
4 27 35 25
5 42 60 45
6 60 90 70
7 81 125 100

[Saint Sithney]

Ah yeah. 5 less karma, per buy at every buy during creation.

That is pretty significant.

[Ol' Scratch]

And yet, oddly enough, not everyone in my game's are Human nor are they ridiculously (or even noticeably... or even remotely considered) overpowered. How odd!

Scorecard to Date: Reality 5,407 - Theorycrafting 0.

[Cabral]

And yet, oddly enough, not everyone in my game's are Human nor are they ridiculously (or even noticeably... or even remotely considered) overpowered. How odd!

An incorrect interpretation that has not been abused yet is still an incorrect interpretation.

Just because my players do not know how to, or choose not to, abuse the system is not definitive evidence the system is balanced.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

An incorrect interpretation that has not been abused yet is still an incorrect interpretation.

Just because my players do not know how to, or choose not to, abuse the system is not definitive evidence the system is balanced.

Quoted for Truth...

And Doc... I am pretty sure that your scorecard is far from what you believe it is...
Just Sayin'

Keep the Faith

[Ol' Scratch]

Just because my players do not know how to, or choose not to, abuse the system is not definitive evidence the system is balanced.

And that means exactly what here?

You may as well start whining and crying about how "broken" the rest of the system is, too. Especially if all this imaginary "free Karma" coming from the plainly, simply, and obviously listed "+1 Edge" bonus Humans get. Does a free Strength 5, Body 5, +1 Reach, +1 Armor, and Thermographic Vision really equal "only" 40 Karma? How about Body 4, Strength 3, and Low-Light Vision for the cost of 20 Karma, especially when compared to Agility 2, Charisma 3 and Low-Light Vision for, OMFG, 30 Karma?! Oh noooooooo... clearly all the races are horribly broken and anyone who chooses any race is trying to abuse the system!

Unless you're an elf, then you're just trying to abuse yourself.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Unless you're an elf, then you're just trying to abuse yourself.
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif)

Sorry, I just cannot get on board with this one... It is interesting (at least to me anyways) that I have very few actual characters that ever make it as an Elf, I just don't seem to care very much for them apparently. I am not all that sure why though. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Keep the Faith

[Mäx]

And yet, oddly enough, not everyone in my game's are Human nor are they ridiculously (or even noticeably... or even remotely considered) overpowered. How odd!

How does this have anythink at all to do with you not understanding that simple sentence i posted.
Where do you get the idea that I think that your illiterate reading makes humans overpowered.

[Ol' Scratch]

It's no more illiterate than your ignoring the "+1 Edge" rule, or assuming it means anything other than exactly what it says: +1 to Edge. Except, you know, my reading incorporates those bits of text, too. Which you'd know if you actually read anything I've written on the topic in this thread. (And to be fair, I realize English isn't your native language.)

[Cabral]

And that means exactly what here?

It means that your sample is not sufficiently representative of the Shadowrun gaming population to definitively state that your misrepresentation of the rules is balanced. Likewise, my players are not expert optimizers and the fact that 2 of 3 players were human is not sufficient evidence to conclude that the RAW is balanced.

[Ol' Scratch]

Oh, well, you should find some other place to chat then. Since, you know, this whole forum revolves around personal opinion, experience, and discussions about what is and isn't "balanced." Unless, you know, you want to spend every thread doing a poll of a few million people or whatever. To each their own, I guess.

[Cabral]

Careful of the advice you throw around. Don't throw your group's experience as the defining point in discussion of RAW and balk when you're called out on it.

There is no precedence for a racial bonus to an attribute behaving as you suggest and if there was no need to make the distinction before karmagen, it is still not grounds for discarding precedence.

But speaking of precedence (and logical consistency), when a human character in your game starts by buying and edge up to 2 then gets the +1 to 3 decides to improve it by one, does he pay (SR4A costs) 15 karma or 20 karma?

[Saint Sithney]

I think the real problem with karmagen is that you have to trust your players.

Anyone who trusts their players is obviously incorrect.

[Ol' Scratch]

There is no precedence for a racial bonus to an attribute behaving as you suggest and if there was no need to make the distinction before karmagen, it is still not grounds for discarding precedence.

SR4A, p81. "+1 Edge."

It does not get more plain than that. I, personally, find it humorously ironic that the people like yourself who are going on trying to act high and mighty are flatly ignoring that simple, straightforward rule while attempting to chastise me for being an illiterate buffoon. It's apparently okay for you guys to do that, though, because you don't like me. <thumbs up>

But speaking of precedence (and logical consistency), when a human character in your game starts by buying and edge up to 2 then gets the +1 to 3 decides to improve it by one, does he pay (SR4A costs) 15 karma or 20 karma?

It's a +1 bonus during character creation. Just like in the days of old.

[Cabral]

I've already addressed why edge would be listed differently on that table. Now, i'll grant you that I don't recall who I disliked or who disliked me the last time I was active here, but I am opposing your assertions because I believe them to be wrong not a personal grudge. Looking back at the posts, there was perhaps an necessary amount of snark, for which I apologize, but their points still stand.

It's a +1 bonus during character creation. Just like in the days of old.

So, a system based on handling character creation consistently with character advancement treats human edge differently in the 2 cases? I'm sorry, but not only does that follow precedence, it goes against a defining principle of the karmagen system to say it behaves the way you describe it.

Feel free to play it as you wish, of course, but don't present your houserules as RAW. I would also suggest you inform your players so that they are not surprised in other games. (At least in an "other people interpret this differently ..." capacity.)

[Ol' Scratch]

So, a system based on handling character creation consistently with character advancement treats human edge differently in the 2 cases? I'm sorry, but not only does that follow precedence, it goes against a defining principle of the karmagen system to say it behaves the way you describe it.

No more than a +1 to Reach or +1 to Armor does.

You're the ones who are insisting that you read "+1 to Edge" differently than, you know, a +1 to Edge.

[MJBurrage]

No more than a +1 to Reach or +1 to Armor does.

You're the ones who are insisting that you read "+1 to Edge" differently than, you know, a +1 to Edge.

The bonuses (other than +1 Edge) apply to things not upgraded with Karma, so it does not matter when you apply the bonus.

In the main rulebook, it also does not matter when you apply the bonus because the costs under BP are linear. So a human character who spends 10 BP on Edge gets a starting Edge of 3 no mater how you do the math. Once that character earns Karma, it would cost them 4×5 Karma to raise their Edge to 4. So like all other attributes, the bonus comes before raising it later with Karma. So it follows that under Karma Gen, Humans start with an Edge of 2, and raise it normally from there.

In all the Shadowrun games and players I have been involved with, your reading is the only time I have seen it interpreted differently.

PS: I learned a long time ago, that no matter how sure I was about something, if everyone else tells me I'm wrong than I probably am. That would be good advice here.