Karmagen Metatype cost, Need Explanation Options

[Aarakin]

SR4A, p81. "+1 Edge."

Guess it comes down to when you add that +1...

I see the +1 being added as soon as you have chosen metatype, which usually occurs before you start purchasing attributes

PS: just looked it up - Choosing metatype is step 1 in karmagen and purchasing attributes comes in at step 3...

[Ol' Scratch]

Actually, by a literal reading of all the relevant rules in the core book, the only way to accout for all of them is to actually account for all of them. That means Humans receive the equivalence of a metagenic improvement to Edge, raising both the minimum and maximum rating to 2/7 (even though the core rules never mention that it starts at 2) in the text, and adding in the +1 from the chart. Which means a Human can start with an Edge of 9 by taking Lucky. Max it out at 7, get Lucky and pay to raise it to 8, then apply the +1 Edge.

And that's the only way to account for everything. Which is completely stupid to assume. Your takes ignore the +1 to Edge, despite the high and mighty chest thumping of how illiterate I am. The sheer hypocrisy of that chest thumping notwithstanding.

My take, however, ignores the erroneous and unfounded textual descriptions that aren't backed-up anywhere on any table -- on a table that's found in three different books no less, including an upgraded version of the core rules. Yours does the opposite, for no real reason or benefit except in the case of the optional Karma Generation system. But at least I'm acknowledging it.

But anyway, let's see who's take is more balanced. And by balanced, I mean equal to other options as opposed to underpowered which, you know, isn't balanced at all. The following makes a few assumptions and alterations to the referenced rules, most of which are addressed after the list. I'm also using the Karma Generation costs since, again, that's the only time the difference means much of anything at all. (Edge 7 vs. Edge 6+1 both cost exactly the same amount of Build Points.)

[ Spoiler ]

Humans

My Take
Cost: 0 Karma
Traits: +1 Edge and Lucky (with the acknowledgement that you can still take Lucky).
Net Gain: 45 to 105 Karma

vs.

Your Take
Cost: 0 Karma
Traits: Metagenic Improvement (Edge)
Net Gain: 40 Karma

vs.

Literal Reading Take
Cost: 0 Karma
Traits: +1 Edge, Lucky, Metagenic Improvement (Edge)
Net Gain: 85 to 145 Karma

Dwarves

Cost: 25 Karma
Traits: Metagenic Improvement (Body), Metagenic Improvement (Strength) x2, Metagenic Improvement (Willpower), Thermographic Vision; Metagenic Crippling (Reaction)
Net Gain: 105 Karma. Cut off about 10 Karma for the rarely enforced price hike on equipment if you like.

Elves

Cost: 30 Karma
Traits: Metagenic Improvement (Agility), Metagenic Improvement (Charisma) x2, Low-Light Vision
Net Gain: 100 Karma

Orks

Cost: 20 Karma
Traits: Metagenic Improvement (Body) x3, Metagenic Improvement (Strength) x2, Low-Light Vision; Metagenic Crippling (Charisma), Metagenic Crippling (Logic)
Net Gain: 110 Karma

Trolls

Cost: 40 Karma
Traits: Metagenic Improvement (Body) x4, Metagenic Improvement (Strength) x4, +1 Reach, +1 Armor, Thermographic Vision; Metagenic Crippling (Agility), Metagenic Crippling (Charisma) x2, Metagenic Crippling (Intuition), Metagenic Crippling (Logic)
Net Gain: 130 Karma without accounting for Reach and Armor; both of which are least 10-20 BP (and thus 20-40 Karma) each. So the actual value is around 170-210 Karma. Cut off about 20 Karma for the rarely enforced price hike on equipment, too, if you like.

Note that in the above comparison, I assumed Metagenic Improvement could stack and included a raise in the minimum ratings, too. With Lucky, while the same in reality, I instead assumed it didn't include a raise in the minumum and just allows you to get Edge 7 just to drive home a distinction between the two. I also reversed Metagenic Improvement directly for Metagenic Crippling even though its true value should be less since a) the minimums don't change and b) few people max out those attributes anyway. I also used the cost for Night Vision for both Low-Light and Thermographic Vision.

Oh, and the various takes on Humans: My Take is a flat +1 to Edge on the 1-6 scale. I only included Lucky because Edge doesn't have an augmented rating, and I was being generous on the overall values to avoid bitching. Your Take is that there is no actual bonus, just a change in the minimum/maximum ratings of Edge. The Literal Reading Take is the one I mentioned above that basically combined the two; a change in the minimum/maximum rating plus the listed +1 to Edge.

These values also completely ignore the actual, in-practice balance of the classes. You know, where that +1 to Edge doesn't really mean a whole lot unless you're maxing it out in the land of Theorycrafting. And even then, that's an effect of the Edge attribute itself, not a simple +1 bonus to it (and all those "problems" still continue to exist even if their Edge is only one point lower). Or, you know, like where Trolls are actually a horrible choice overall despite their overall "bargain."

That said, notice that with the exception of Edge 7, at no point does My Take become a noticeably better bargain than what the other races provide, but is still a competitive choice... and then, only if you take Edge at 5 or 6 before applying the +1 bonus. Whereas with Your Take, they're grossly underpowered be it at Edge 2 or Edge 7. The Literal Reading Take is just flat out stupid after Edge 3 to 4, and it shows. And Hell, even then Trolls are still a significantly "better" bargain.

So, yeah. Even with actual theorycrafting (as opposed to "oh, this is different than my take on the world so it must be broken!"), the whining and bitching about a +1 to Edge doesn't really hold up.

[Samoth]

Man, you will go to great lengths to avoid admitting that you are blatantly wrong by RAW.

[Ol' Scratch]

My take, however, ignores the erroneous and unfounded textual descriptions that aren't backed-up anywhere on any table -- on a table that's found in three different books no less, including an upgraded version of the core rules. Yours does the opposite, for no real reason or benefit except in the case of the optional Karma Generation system. But at least I'm acknowledging it.

See also the very first paragraph in my previous post. Which I understand not reading because of the length of the entire post (I hate reading large ones myself).

Anyway, you're the people pigheadedly ignoring the +1 to Edge, acting like it doesn't even exist and pretending that it means something other than what it clearly means when you do acknowledge its existence. It's right there in black and white in three different sourcebooks. "+1 Edge." Again, it does not get any more straightforward than that.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Man, you will go to great lengths to avoid admitting that you are blatantly wrong by RAW.

Yeah, Well he is still just the usual Doc Funkenstein, just using a different Handle... At least he is consistent...

Keep the Faith

[Cabral]

Anyway, you're the people pigheadedly ignoring the +1 to Edge, acting like it doesn't even exist and pretending that it means something other than what it clearly means when you do acknowledge its existence. It's right there in black and white in three different sourcebooks. "+1 Edge." Again, it does not get any more straightforward than that.

Actually, it's in green and light green. SR4A Page 82: Example of character creation on the bottom right, Michelle is building a human Shadowrunnner and "thinks Edge will be important, so she spends 10 BP to increase it from 2 to 3." The Human's edge is increased before attributes are purchased.

Not only is your interpretation without precedence, but the example supports our interpretation.

[Mäx]

(even though the core rules never mention that it starts at 2)

So your still happily ingnoring the quotes i provided from both versions of the corebook.
Clad to see your new handle hasn't changed you one bit.

[Jhaiisiin]

Gotta say, Doc, I agree with a lot of the others here. The +1 Edge is added before you start buying up attributes or qualities. So regardless, you start at 2, and you max at 7, 8 with lucky.

[rstehwien]

...link to homepage in Jhaiisiin sig

I like your build your own metatype doc on your webpage. Whole heartily agree with how you have laid out the costs and would use them as a beginning for karmagen should I use it. I plan to fix up the table a bit (several shifter foxes listed and none have regen) and use it in the game I'm about to start.

Good to see another Albuquerque gamer here as well.

[Jhaiisiin]

I'm not the only one who developed a table like that. For the life of me, I can't remember the other poster's name though. Darn me.

Edit, once you get to 10 posts and your PMs are enabled, send me one. Would like to see if we know each other in this fishbowl of a town.

[Ol' Scratch]

Gotta say, Doc, I agree with a lot of the others here. The +1 Edge is added before you start buying up attributes or qualities. So regardless, you start at 2, and you max at 7, 8 with lucky.

That's one interpretation.

Unfortunately, it doesn't mesh with all of the listed rules. You guys are still making stuff up about what "+1 Edge" means yourselves. The singular core rule that states the metahuman maximum for Humans is Edge 7 has no stated link to their racial ability, nor does the racial ability have any description detailing it at all. The sample text (stating that Humans have a minimum Edge of 2) likewise makes no reference to any actual rule anywhere in the core rules; it's a total assumption. Going strictly by all the core rules, including that example, Humans have an Edge range of 2/7 and a +1 bonus completely separate from that, for an actual range of 3/8. Add Lucky into the mix (which doesn't affect the minimum, just like Exceptional Attribute), and it goes from 3/9.

And, again, there's no reason in the world their bonus should be listed as "+1 Edge" when "Edge 2/7" would have done the job without any question and for exactly the same wordcount.

If you don't like it, so be it. I think it's a stupid interpretation, too. But if you guys are going to sit here and call me illiterate and chastise my choice of reading in regards to what's more fair and balanced, you have to accept you're in exactly the same boat.

As a side note, no one's even come close to explaining why a +1 to Edge is anywhere close to actually being unbalanced or unfair. Well, except for one guy who just decreed it so.

[Wandering One]

And, again, there's no reason in the world their bonus should be listed as "+1 Edge" when "Edge 2/7" would have done the job without any question and for exactly the same wordcount.

If you don't like it, so be it. I think it's a stupid interpretation, too. But if you guys are going to sit here and call me illiterate and chastise my choice of reading in regards to what's more fair and balanced, you have to accept you're in exactly the same boat.

As a side note, no one's even come close to explaining why a +1 to Edge is anywhere close to actually being unbalanced or unfair. Well, except for one guy who just decreed it so.

I think because the writers assumed (that was apparently stupid), that a syntactical war wouldn't occur, in the stats section, when +2 cha listed for elves ends up at 3/8, that +1 edge for humans would end up at 2/8. I'm quite sure they didn't expect to run into the linguistical paragon of the Funk to manage to find a way to twist it into some awkward rules pretzel, especially since every rule is apparently to be taken into account separately from any other time it's mentioned. Since, to anyone other than you, +1 edge and 2/7 human edge attribute seems to make perfect damned sense.

And no, it's not unbalancing.

[Ol' Scratch]

Oh I see.

What you're actually trying to say is that you can read "+1 Edge" how you want, even though it makes no sense, is not presented in any way, shape, or form in the way you declare it to be, and is used in no other fashion in the game whatsoever. But because of that, "+1 Edge" obviously means "Edge 2/7" despite, you know, them not just coming out and listing it that way on the damn chart.

I mean, hell, if "+1 Edge" means "Edge 2/7," why not just list all the races that way? I mean, it's so obvious isn't it?

<thumbs up>

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I mean, hell, if "+1 Edge" means "Edge 2/7," why not just list all the races that way? I mean, it's so obvious isn't it?

<thumbs up>

Ummmmm... They did... See the stat Blocks... I think that you are fighting a losing battle here Doc. If everyone on dumpshock looks at something one way, and you are the only one to see it differently, You might take another look at your argument, because it is probably wrong... +1 Edge is identical to Edge 2/7 for Humans... and the examples bear this out. Sorry, you are wrong here.

Keep the Faith

[Udoshi]

You guys are still arguing about this?

What you're actually trying to say is that you can read "+1 Edge" how you want, even though it makes no sense, is not presented in any way, shape, or form in the way you declare it to be, and is used in no other fashion in the game whatsoever. But because of that, "+1 Edge" obviously means "Edge 2/7" despite, you know, them not just coming out and listing it that way on the damn chart.

I mean, hell, if "+1 Edge" means "Edge 2/7," why not just list all the races that way? I mean, it's so obvious isn't it?

Yes. Yes it is. You have just, finally, pointed out exactly how the rules work! Good job! The irony is delicious.
And no. He's not reading it any-which-whatever-the-fuck way. He's reading the book. Which you should too.
Stop: Quotehammer time.

Edge
Improving a character’s Edge costs 10 BP per +1 increase (25 BP for
raising it to its natural maximum). The metatype maximum for Edge
is 6 (7 for humans).

Lucky
This quality allows a character to possess an Edge attribute one point higher than his metatype maximum. (For example, a human character could raise his Edge to 8.)

Example:
Since brian and michelle are using the BP system, the first step is to select a metatype. Michelle decides she wants to stick with the norm and play a human, for a cost of 0bp. All her character's physical and mental attributes start at 1, with a natural maximum of 6+submersion grade. Furthermore, her character gains an extra point of Edge, so her street witch automatically starts with an edge of 2.

Example:
Michelle looks at her special attributes. 5th Sentence: She thinks Edge will be important, so she spends 10BP to increase it from 2 to 3.

Build Point Character Creation Summary
1: Metatype
2: Qualities
3: BP to attributes

Karma System Character Creation:
Step 1: Choose Your Metatype or Other Character Race Option
Step 2: Select Qualities
Step 3: Purchase Attributes

Here's all the relevant rules for you in one easy to read block. As you can see quite clearly, Metatype comes first, in BOTH character creation methods. This adjusts stats as appropriate for the metatype, which you then can raise from its base value.
Tough cookie to swallow, I know. Have fun trying to Trollman your way out of this one.

[Ol' Scratch]

Uhm, no. I can refute that really easy. You do not have to follow any particular steps when creating your character; those are just recommendations. Proof? SR4A p. 81, Choose Your Metatype: "A character’s metatype sets his or her attribute limits, so it’s strongly recommended that you perform this step first." Emphasis mine.

I'd also appreciate it if you not compare me to anyone else. Thank you.

Once again: You are the ones ignoring what the rules are saying. I'm at least acknowledging them for what they are. "+1 Edge" != "Minimum and Maximum Changes," be it in the English language or Rulespeak. If it did, they'd do that for the various metavariants in the Runner's Companion. But guess what, they don't. They list them as Metagenic Improvements. And you know what else? The "+1 Edge" rule for Humans is in the same book.

Oh, and Pixies get a similar adjustment to their maximum Edge score. But they don't have "+1 Edge." Same book, again.

[Udoshi]

Uhm, no. I can refute that really easy. You do not have to follow any particular steps when creating your character; those are just recommendations. Proof? SR4A p. 81, Choose Your Metatype: "A character’s metatype sets his or her attribute limits, so it’s strongly recommended that you perform this step first." Emphasis mine.

Once again: You are the ones ignoring what the rules are saying. I'm at least acknowledging them for what they are. "+1 Edge" != "Minimum and Maximum Changes," be it in the English language or Rulespeak. If it did, they'd do that for the various metavariants in the Runner's Companion. But guess what, they don't. They list them as Metagenic Improvements. And you know what else? The "+1 Edge" rule for Humans is in the same book.

Oh, and Pixies get a similar adjustment to their maximum Edge score. But they don't have "+1 Edge." Same book, again.

So, what you are saying is you can buy strength 5 for 40BP, then go back and buy Ork for 20, retroactively adding 4 to your strength so you now have a strength of 9, and avoid paying the extra cost for maxing a stat?

Bullshit.

[Jhaiisiin]

Okay, better question, Doc. You said yourself you don't agree with the interpretation. So why are you arguing the point? If several spots say Edge Maximum is 7 for human (8 with lucky) then why are you arguing otherwise, especially when you yourself don't agree with it?

It seems this is a really senseless argument. Regardless of semantics, it states maximum edge of 7 for humans, or 8 with Lucky. Exceptional attribute and other methods can't increase it beyond this. It's in the wording right there.

I DON'T think you're being illiterate. I think you're playing Devil's Advocate just to keep the pot stirred.

[Ol' Scratch]

So, what you are saying is you can buy strength 5 for 40BP, then go back and buy Ork for 20, retroactively adding 4 to your strength so you now have a strength of 9, and avoid paying the extra cost for maxing a stat?

Bullshit.

No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying you don't have to go in any particular order. If you go back and decide to be an Ork, you have to adjust what you've already done as appropriate.

"+1 Edge" is "+1 Edge." Stomp, cry, and whine all you like. That doesn't transform it into "Edge 2/7," "Metagenic Improvement (Edge)," or anything other than "+1 Edge." I'm not ignoring that Humans can have an Edge of 7. YOU are the one ignoring the +1 Edge benefit, claiming it to be something other than what it says it is. Some are saying it's just a +1 at character creation, which wouldn't change their maximum value. Others are saying it's a variation of Metagenic Improvement even though that's never mentioned once. Others are saying... I don't even know what they're saying, but they're saying something.

Again, Pixies have the exact same blurb in the text about having an Edge maximum of 7 without a "+1 Edge" listed as one of their abilities. This is in the same exact book where you can not only find "+1 Edge" for Humans, but "Metagenic Improvement" for various metavariant races.

Refute that if you're going to bother refuting anything.

[Udoshi]

Edit: one moment.

[Udoshi]

No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying you don't have to go in any particular order. If you go back and decide to be an Ork, you have to adjust what you've already done as appropriate.

"+1 Edge" is "+1 Edge." Stomp, cry, and whine all you like. That doesn't transform it into "Edge 2/7," "Metagenic Improvement (Edge)," or anything other than "+1 Edge." I'm not ignoring that Humans can have an Edge of 7. YOU are the one ignoring the +1 Edge benefit, claiming it to be something other than what it says it is. Some are saying it's just a +1 at character creation, which wouldn't change their maximum value. Others are saying it's a variation of Metagenic Improvement even though that's never mentioned once. Others are saying... I don't even know what they're saying, but they're saying something.

Again, Pixies have the exact same blurb in the text about having an Edge maximum of 7 without a "+1 Edge" listed as one of their abilities. This is in the same exact book where you can not only find "+1 Edge" for Humans, but "Metagenic Improvement" for various metavariant races.

Refute that if you're going to bother refuting anything.

So, you're pointing at Metagentic improvements, claiming read-as-intended when you're not one of the developers, and pointing to a rule that explicitly says it doesn't work for Special attributes. 'IF the devs did this' isn't a very sturdy ground to argue on. Even worse, you're claiming the human edge rule and the pixie edge rule are in the same book. They are not. Anniversary edition and Runners companion are different books.

No, what you are doing is clinging to one line of rules text, sticking your fingers in your ears, going 'la la la', and refusing to look at every other passage of text that deals with the same issue. Thats like looking at the Slaving rules, seeing the line that says 'it can't be hacked' and completely forgetting about the 'unless it has a direct physical connection line' You need to take -every- rule into account. Not just the ones you cherrypick. You are pointing at the layout and presentation of the book, claiming it as explicit proof of the devs intent - and refusing to look beyond that page, where the rest of it is detailed.

Next, your example on page 81 doesn't hold up in all chargen options.

Step one: Choose your metatype or other character race option.
First, you must choose metatype or other alternative character concept.

Emphasis mine. Sorry, suddenly your rules lawyer attemps to bend the system don't apply in all character creation methods - while mine does. Your arguement is flawed. Care to try again?

[Ol' Scratch]

Okay, better question, Doc. You said yourself you don't agree with the interpretation. So why are you arguing the point? If several spots say Edge Maximum is 7 for human (8 with lucky) then why are you arguing otherwise, especially when you yourself don't agree with it?

It seems this is a really senseless argument. Regardless of semantics, it states maximum edge of 7 for humans, or 8 with Lucky. Exceptional attribute and other methods can't increase it beyond this. It's in the wording right there.

I DON'T think you're being illiterate. I think you're playing Devil's Advocate just to keep the pot stirred.

Here's what I'm saying.

1. Humans get a +1 to Edge as their singular racial ability.
2. Edge, like most of the special attributes, doesn't have an augmented maximum.
3. Instead of introducing an augmented maximum solely for humans, they just say they can go to 7.
4. The +1 to Edge is applied just like any other racial ability is. You don't have to pay for it; it's always a +1 to Edge.
5. In the Build Point system, it doesn't matter when you apply the +1 to Edge; the cost is the same no matter who's interpretation you're using.
6. In the Karma Generation system, the "benefit" isn't this tragically broken bonus people are maxing it out to be. It's a minor benefit for a race that doesn't really get jack squat. So who cares if they get a minor discount relative to the others? It's still just a +1 to Edge.

I'm also saying that if you're going to try and twist "+1 Edge" into meaning something it is never stated as meaning, which is in no way intuitive or easily assumed, and is only being interpreted that way because that's just how you've always done it rather than question it, then you shouldn't bitch when someone else actually sees it for what it actually is -- a simple +1 to Edge.

And if you are going to bitch and complain about that -- with absolutely no possible concern about that interpretation being unbalanced or broken in any way -- then you have to take a step back and look at what's actually being written in those rules. The +1 to Edge and the metagenic maximum are not related as they're depicted in the core rulebook. They are complete separate. You can raise your Edge to 7, and you still have that +1 to Edge to deal with. You don't get to plug your ears and hum in order to ignore that +1 to Edge or try to bullshit your way into meaning it says anything other than exactly what it says.

But hey. Apparently it's okay to do just that. It's a good thing I find hypocrisy like that infinitely amusing.

[Udoshi]

I'm not ignoring that Humans can have an Edge of 7. YOU are the one ignoring the +1 Edge benefit, claiming it to be something other than what it says it is.

Elaborate. Exactly what do you think it does?

Some are saying it's just a +1 at character creation, which wouldn't change their maximum value.

Except it explicitly says it does. See my quotehammer, above. Sorry, try again.

Others are saying it's a variation of Metagenic Improvement even though that's never mentioned once. Others are saying... I don't even know what they're saying, but they're saying something.

No, YOU are saying its metagenetic improvement. If you don't know what you're arguing, you may want to take a break and try again later.

Again, Pixies have the exact same blurb in the text about having an Edge maximum of 7 without a "+1 Edge" listed as one of their abilities. This is in the same exact book where you can not only find "+1 Edge" for Humans, but "Metagenic Improvement" for various metavariant races.

Source. Quote, Book and page numbers. If you're going to argue something, back it up. And, uh, +1 edge for humans is in the Anniversary book. Anniversary is not the RC.

[Ol' Scratch]

<snip>

Next, your example on page 81 doesn't hold up in all chargen options.

Emphasis mine. Sorry, suddenly your rules lawyer attemps to bend the system don't apply in all character creation methods - while mine does. Your arguement is flawed. Care to try again?

And yet another example of where you guys get to ignore one rule just to make yourselves feel better. Nevermind that rule is from a completely different creation system, written by a guy who often gets crap wrong anyway. Again: Just take a gander at the FAQs or the bizzare logic used to rationalize why he fucks over mages and technomancers on that same page for proof positive that he doesn't quite grasp the meaning behind several rules. Fluff, yes. Rules, no.

[Ol' Scratch]

Source. Quote, Book and page numbers. If you're going to argue something, back it up. And, uh, +1 edge for humans is in the Anniversary book. Anniversary is not the RC.

Runner's Companion p. 70, Metatype Attribute Table: "Human Metatype Abilities: +1 Edge"
Runner's Companion p. 84, Sapient Critter Attribute Table: "Pixie Critter Abilities: Enhanced Sense (Astral Perception)"
Runner's Companion p. 84, Not Metahuman: "All sapient critters begin the game with an Essence of 6, and their maximum Edge is 5, except for pixies who have a maximum Edge of 7."

How's that foot tasting? Try as hard as I might, I can't find "+1 Edge" in that entry for the Pixie abilities... but I can find a very similar bit of text for a Human's maximum Edge plus a +1 to Edge. Curious how that works.