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> Gel Packs + Armor Spell
pikafunk
post Feb 26 2004, 05:42 AM
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Does it stack?

Now lets put aside the power gaming comments.

Armor(spell):

This spell creates a glowing field of magical energy around the target that protects against impact and ballistic damage. One success is enough to create the magical field around the character of an Armor Rating equal to the Force of the spell. The Armor spell is compatible with all armor types and adds its rating to the rating of the physical armor being worn. This spell either works or it doesn't; extra successes do not add additional points to the Armor Rating.

Gel Packs:
When gel packs are added to a piece of armor, treat that armor as hardened armor at its normal Ballistic and Impact ratings... A gel-packed armor item cannot be layered with other armor.

Now the question is this. The armor spell is compatible with all armor types AND adds its rating to the rating of the armor being worn. Now, should this not stack, wouldnt there need to be a specific rule stating that hardened armor and/or gel packs do not stack with magical effects?

Clearly there are reasons for saying this does not stack. But according to the rulebooks i see no reason that they would not stack. Thats what houserules are for.
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BitBasher
post Feb 26 2004, 05:50 AM
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They would stack, and I dont really see a house rule needed. Gel packs are pretty obvious, and the armor spell is totally obvious.
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toturi
post Feb 26 2004, 05:51 AM
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It stacks, but I will take the wording of both Armour and Gel Packs as written. That is the Armour spell is added to the Gel packed Armour but that armour is still treated at its normal(ie un-Armour spelled) Ballistic and Impact Ratings.
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Body Hammer
post Feb 26 2004, 05:52 AM
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It stacks.

The gelpacks just cannot be "layered with other armor". Layering (highest armor rating plus half the rating of the 2nd highest and can affect movement/encumbrance/whatever) is different than adding a magical shield around the character.

That's how I'd rule that one.
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Zazen
post Feb 26 2004, 07:45 AM
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Are you asking if the armor ratings are added, or if the armor spell becomes hardened armor by virtue of the gel packs?

If it's the latter, then no.
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BitBasher
post Feb 26 2004, 07:52 AM
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Given the exact quote from the spell description:
QUOTE
The Armor spell is compatible with all armor types and adds its rating to the rating of the physical armor being worn.
I would have to sy that if cast while wearing hardened armor then it acts as hardened, and the same for non hardened armor. After all the spell is adding its rating to your existing armor, not creating a new layer of armor. Technically this spell should be called "reinforce armor".
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Zazen
post Feb 26 2004, 07:58 AM
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In that case the armor spell becomes totally ineffective unless you are already wearing armor. If you play it that way, then I guess that's fine.

ed- But most do not :P That quote is obviously there to make clear that you do not apply layering penalties but rather that you add their ratings directly.
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Darkest Angel
post Feb 26 2004, 08:44 AM
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They stack, but it only counts as hardened up to the value of the hardened armour, above that it counts as regular. So if you had a gel packed lined coat (4/2) and a force 6 armour spell, your armour would be 10/8, however it would only count as hardened when resisting 4 ballistic and 2 impact.

It is in no way a reinforce armour spell, because that's not what it is or does in any way shape or form - it creates a magical field with the same effects of armour next to your skin.
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dEdDaWg
post Feb 26 2004, 09:23 AM
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I've asked this question on the forum but I never got an explanation that was satisfactory.

Well, what happenes then when a character with said armor gets hit by a heavy pistol (Power 9)? Does the bullets get slowed down by the armor spell, resulting in an attack of Power 3, then hitting the gel packed lined coat, causing no damage (Power 3 is less than the Ballistic Rating of 4)?

OR...

Does the bullet just penetrate the lined coat, then goes through the armor spell? And the character has to soak 2M or whatever?

It seems to me that if the spell menifests outside the clothing, then the first senario will take place. If it justs harden your skin (or whatever), then the later will happen. Looking at the description of the spell (with the glowing and all), it seems to indicate that the spell manifests outside of your clothing. otherwise, one could say that the spell does indeed glow but cannot be seen if it's underneath clothing.




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Lilt
post Feb 26 2004, 09:30 AM
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I think it's the armor spell then the body armor. For one: Armor produces a glowing effect around them, if you said it was hit after worn armor then people would have a case to say that the glow is hidden by clothing. Mind-you: That's possibly better than allowing them 10 points of hardened armor...
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Zazen
post Feb 26 2004, 09:40 AM
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No other armor layering works that way, though. If you carry a ballistic shield, you don't say "first the shield and then my forearm guards and then my helmet and then my hardened armor!".
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pikafunk
post Feb 26 2004, 09:57 AM
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well my point was that gel packs dont allow layered armor. Which leads me to believe items like helmets and shields which arent layers would add to it. and even beyond that the 'armor' spell which adds to the rating of worn armor.
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dEdDaWg
post Feb 29 2004, 04:04 PM
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True. This is magic here though, so it may work differently.
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GunnerJ
post Feb 29 2004, 06:29 PM
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Yeah. It works differently by making you a BIG GLOWING TARGET for anyone with the firepower (magical or mundane) to take you out. Oh, and if your buds don't have an armor spell on them, well, they're pretty much fucked when the mortar shells/manaball spells start landing.
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hobgoblin
post Feb 29 2004, 06:30 PM
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just another reason to load every gun with av ammo when your going after a mage. or maybe jsut pack some great dragon rockets or something ;) overkill is allways good :silly:
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Darkest Angel
post Feb 29 2004, 08:51 PM
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QUOTE (dEdDaWg @ Feb 26 2004, 10:23 AM)
I've asked this question on the forum but I never got an explanation that was satisfactory.

Well, what happenes then when a character with said armor gets hit by a heavy pistol (Power 9)? [snip]

What happens is, you reduce the power of the weapon by the total value of the armour to a minimum of 2. Once the power exceeds the rating of the gel packed armour, it only counts as normal armour as does any hardened armour when the attack power exceeds it's rating.

In terms of game mechanics it would be the same as going through the gel packs and then through the spell. However, never say that to a munchkin because he'll just say "I cast my armour spell over my body armour", at which point you slap him. :spin: In real terms, the spell adds it's rating to worn armour, if the worn armour is hardened, and the attack exceeds the rating of the worn armour it all just counts as normal armour in the same way hardened armour works like normal armour when the attack is powerful enough.
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BitBasher
post Mar 1 2004, 01:24 AM
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QUOTE
if the worn armour is hardened, and the attack exceeds the rating of the worn armour it all just counts as normal armour in the same way hardened armour works like normal armour when the attack is powerful enough.
That is one interpretation, of which several are valid. since the spell does not directly address hardened armor, but it does specifically that it adds directly to worn armor, then it can also be correct that the value of the hardened armor is also raised by the value appropriate to the spell. This would also be a completely canon interpretation unless you have a book quote that states otherwise.
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Zazen
post Mar 1 2004, 02:28 AM
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Another valid interpretation:

"One success is enough to create the magical field around the character of an Armor Rating equal to the Force of the spell. The Armor spell is compatible with all armor types and adds its rating to the physical armor being worn." (emphasis mine)

Thus it not only provides its force in armor as a field, but it also adds its rating to physical armor being worn, i.e.
6/6 Force 6 armor spell
11/9 Armor jacket
6/7 Forearm guards
etc. etc. Resulting in someones armor rating going through the stratosphere.


Of course we can come up with many technically correct interpretations, but some of them make little sense. It's our job to disregard interpretations which are ridiculous, and I happen to think that hardening a mages magical field because they have a little bit of hardened armor is pretty ridiculous.
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BitBasher
post Mar 1 2004, 05:16 AM
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Actually I disagree that that instance is ridiculous. That was kind of my point. I let it work that way in my games, but then again the odds of my players getting hardened armor of any kind is nil.
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Zazen
post Mar 1 2004, 06:19 AM
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Yeah, I know. I was just trying to drive home that canon and unreasonable are not exclusive properties, and that reasonable-ness should be decided for ourselves. :)
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BitBasher
post Mar 1 2004, 08:09 AM
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Well heck! no arguments there! :D
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