How secure is a GPS signal in game?, Because "GPS" is too short for the search function Options

[Saint Sithney]

So yeah. The thread title.

I always avoid dropping a GPS into my build setups because I see them as being a liability. I can't imagine that the satellite used to provide your positioning data to you couldn keep a record of that data. And we all know how data trails can be an issue should a GM take such an issue.

Any idea what the deal is here? Would the GPS company keep such info privileged? Could someone sniff out your GPS code and find you whenever you have the device on? Is it even encrypted?

Thoughts?

[Nath]

Currently, standard GPS appliances are only a passive receiver. It receives GPS sats constellation signal and compute its position accordingly. Then, instead of displaying it on a screen, it can transmit the result to a Facebook app, the Pentagon or the Illuminati HQ, just like any processed data, but that's not a feature of GPS technology.

[Ol' Scratch]

Yeah, I was going to say... that's kind of a weird question. I mean, if the satellites had to receive data from every single GPS device, well, that's be some serious hardware. They just sit up there broadcasting where they are, and the devices take that information and tell you where you are relative to the satellites. No?

[Yerameyahu]

Yes. As we saw in James Bond, the only 'unsafe' thing about GPS is if the signals are false; there's no record unless *your* GPS sends your position to someone (like some cell phones do today).

[SkepticInc]

One of the misconceptions of electronics that Hollywood has perpetrated is that you can never be sure who is listening in. While that is a good thing to keep in mind if you aren't trained in electronics, your technitian can guarantee that you don't have any electrical bits sending off cryptic messages on occasion to the big bad data collector in the sky. Or at least, they can guarantee that at the time they give you the product. Subsequent hackings and jackings can get you tapped and bugged, or else Burn Notice would be out of a job.

[Hand-E-Food]

So yeah. The thread title.

I always avoid dropping a GPS into my build setups because I see them as being a liability. I can't imagine that the satellite used to provide your positioning data to you couldn keep a record of that data. And we all know how data trails can be an issue should a GM take such an issue.

Any idea what the deal is here? Would the GPS company keep such info privileged? Could someone sniff out your GPS code and find you whenever you have the device on? Is it even encrypted?

Thoughts?

A commlink can act as a GPS, but only in wireless enabled areas (cities.) With a GPS, you know your position and velocity, anywhere, at any time, except underground. A commlink may be able to use underground wireless nodes. If you disable the GPS's wireless (as opposed to it's receiver), only someone looking at the GPS's screen knows the information. Setting the GPS's signal rating to 0 will allow you to view the data in AR, and only people within 3 meters of you have a chance of hacking the GPS. Both a GPS or a commlink would log your route, a problem if it falls into the wrong hands. These logs can be disabled and deleted.

A GPS company would have no information beyond your GPS serial number and SIN. They may be able to copy your logs when you return to a wireless area. Third-parties could only detect your GPS if they were within it's signal range. The GPS has two signal ratings, one for receiving satellite signals (signal 8, receive only), and one for data communication (signal 2, two-way). I'd say the data is only encrypted if you install Encryption software on the GPS.

[wind_in_the_ston...]

Pretty much every comm would have GPS. It's pretty common nowdays. In sixty years, GPS would be an integral part of numerous standard apps on the cheapest commlink. But the GPS chip doesn't communicate with the outside world - only with your apps. So just make sure your apps aren't doing anything you don't want them to. But no one short of an expert (hacker) will be able to shut them all down. Five years ago, I had a security system on my computer that let me specify whether every individual program could reach the internet or not. I no longer have that software, and I have many more programs that send and retrieve information. It's only going to get worse.

[Yerameyahu]

There are a number of programs that provide 'outgoing side firewall' for Windows (I think ZoneAlarm was the most popular?), and a couple for Mac. I never understood why it wasn't built right in to the stock firewall, but that's reality for you. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

In Shadowrun, you could make it a simple computer use test to configure something like that, and/or allow people to find commercial/open-source options to do it for them; it might even be a basic function of Firewall programs.

[wind_in_the_ston...]

There are a number of programs that provide 'outgoing side firewall' for Windows (I think ZoneAlarm was the most popular?), and a couple for Mac. I never understood why it wasn't built right in to the stock firewall, but that's reality for you. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

In Shadowrun, you could make it a simple computer use test to configure something like that, and/or allow people to find commercial/open-source options to do it for them; it might even be a basic function of Firewall programs.

I think I used to use Zone Alarm. I should find it again.

But in 207X, there are so many programs running on your comm, that I don't think you could shut them all in. And what effects would that have on your comm or its security? You could prevent security updates. You might not recognize which ones are bad and which ones are good. There would be all kinds of ware designed not to show up on the proper lists.

[Yerameyahu]

Things are always in balance. Did using ZoneAlarm prevent security updates? Did having too many programs cripple it? Did it make your security worse? Did it recognize good/bad wrong? (This one is a 'yes', but that's intentional: you instruct it.)

[hobgoblin]

There are a number of programs that provide 'outgoing side firewall' for Windows (I think ZoneAlarm was the most popular?), and a couple for Mac. I never understood why it wasn't built right in to the stock firewall, but that's reality for you. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

iirc, it is built in, only that its disabled by default. I suspect thats a ease of use issue (less "incomprehensible" popups that ends up getting a yes by rote anyways).

and iirc, GPS is integral to how AR works. For the comlink to display AR signs and such in the right place, it first needs to know where itself is. And if your comlink is in active move, or in some other way transmitting AR data thats supposed to be displayed in relation to your comlinks location, it by default is sharing the location data with anyone within direct broadcast range.

and GPS is basically radio triangulation. And this can also be done without a GPS signal. and if one have 2 or more antennas with known locations, they can pinpoint your transmitter by drawing a virtual circle from each and looking at where the lines cross. The latter being basically what a GPS device is doing, in reverse.

[Yerameyahu]

Right, but the fact that GPS is the reverse of triangulation (which you can do in SR4, also) is very important for security; it means that your GPS location is only shared with others if you *want* to.

As for how AR works, I assume you just mean location-based adver-services. Runners probably don't want those anyway, but regardless, you should have control over whether that info (GPS) is sent or not; they'd probably just use Skyhook-style locating, anyway, which basically like GPS-lite (and you should still have control over access, because it happens on your commlink).

[Shrike30]

The "GPS" that you have on modern cell phones and on SR4 commlinks is a misnomer; it's not based on satellite signals, it's based on signals from cell towers and/or wireless networks. Take your cell phone/commlink out to the middle of the mountains where you've got no signal, and poof, the "GPS" function doesn't work; interestingly, they can be quite accurate in places that have been built to take advantage of this technology (within a meter).

True GPS is based on satellite signals, and will work fairly accurately pretty much anywhere you can get a clear signal to 3+ specific objects in orbit above you. Current tech lets GPS map your location down to within a few meters, good enough for navigation purposes but not quite accurate enough to do things like map property lines or underground gas pipes so you don't dig in the wrong spot. By 207X, they may have become more accurate.

[Synner667]

The "GPS" that you have on modern cell phones and on SR4 commlinks is a misnomer; it's not based on satellite signals, it's based on signals from cell towers and/or wireless networks. Take your cell phone/commlink out to the middle of the mountains where you've got no signal, and poof, the "GPS" function doesn't work; interestingly, they can be quite accurate in places that have been built to take advantage of this technology (within a meter).

That's not strictly accurate...
...Modern phones have GPS chips, which locate via satellite, and they also triangulate via cel towers and wifi hotspots - they usually flip from one to the other according to signal strength, etc though some might be able to prefer one over the other.

An example is the early iPhones, that didn't have GPS, but could use google maps...
...Wheras later models do use GPS, and fall back to cel towers and wifi hotspots if they can't use the GPS.

[Yerameyahu]

Right Shrike30, that's the Skyhook-style location service. There's no reason your phone (today) or your comm (SR) can't have real satellite GPS though.

[Redcrow]

If someone were to put their Commlink in "hidden mode" does any part of that translate to essentially shutting off the GPS function?

[Yerameyahu]

No. Again, the GPS (and Skyhook-type systems) are passive from the outsider's perspective.

[hobgoblin]

there is also something called A-GPS. This basically gives a faster lookup by first asking the carrier who's network your using, where the cell your in is located. This is then used to speed up the initial GPS startup as otherwise the phone would basically just look for whatever sats it can see, check the time and date, and by that figure out in what part of the world you would see those sats at that date and time.

[Redcrow]

Ok, I guess I haven't read the Matrix rules in SR4 closely enough or at least my understanding of it isn't what it should be. I sort of got the impression that while using a commlink in SR any local calls (or at least those within the comms signal range) were straight comm to comm connections and not routed through some sort of cell tower and that only connections outside a comms signal range would need to go through a cell tower. I also envisioned that one benefit of being in 'hidden mode' would be to make it more difficult to triangulate your position.

[Yerameyahu]

It is. There really is not a 'cell system' like 2010. The Matrix is fluidly routed through anything and everything in signal range, including your commlink, your car, or large-scale towers.

Hidden Mode makes it impossible to see your node at all without resorting to a Detect Hidden Node (Electronic Warfare) action (SR4 p230). A successful Trace User action can give you a wireless user's location within 50m. If you steal their GPS/wireless location data directly, you get within 5m.

[KCKitsune]

By RAW a commlink does NOT have Sat-based GPS. It only triangulates based off of your matrix connection. If you want a true GPS system you need to either buy a standalone GPS receiver, get a survival knife (1/4 the cost of a standalone GPS receiver (IMG:style_emoticons/default/question.gif) ) or get an Orientation System.

[Hand-E-Food]

The "GPS" that you have on modern cell phones and on SR4 commlinks is a misnomer; it's not based on satellite signals, it's based on signals from cell towers and/or wireless networks.

GPS = Global Positioning System. The acronym itself has nothing to do with satellites. Earth's first Global Positioning System happens to consist of satellites.

[Hand-E-Food]

get a survival knife (1/4 the cost of a standalone GPS receiver (IMG:style_emoticons/default/question.gif) )

Interesting point...

[Delta]

GPS = Global Positioning System. The acronym itself has nothing to do with satellites. Earth's first Global Positioning System happens to consist of satellites.

That's not completely true, at least as far as I understand it. NAVSTAR GPS is what we commonly call "GPS", which stands for "Navigational Satellite Timing and Ranging - Global Positioning System" and is the name of exactly one kind of satellite network used for this system.

There are other systems used for satellite based navigation (like the Galileo system europe is working on) but they're not called GPS.

[hobgoblin]

get a survival knife (1/4 the cost of a standalone GPS receiver (IMG:style_emoticons/default/question.gif) )

not the first time, there was a similar knife in older editions that came with a trauma patch. The claim was that one could buy the knife in bulk, extract the patch, and sell the patch back at a profit.