[X] My Assistant

[Tanegar]

Is the extra cost for customized cyberlimbs (+¥1500 per Attribute point) applied before or after the cost multiplier for improving the limb's grade? The former would seem more in line with the spirit of the rules, but leads to (potentially), a ¥285,000 limb (Base cost ¥15,000, +3 Agility, ¥4500, +3 Body, ¥4500, +3 Strength, 4500 = ¥28,500, deltaware x10 = ¥285,000). My gut reaction is that this is excessively punitive.

[Mäx]

Is the extra cost for customized cyberlimbs (+¥1500 per Attribute point) applied before or after the cost multiplier for improving the limb's grade? The former would seem more in line with the spirit of the rules, but leads to (potentially), a ¥285,000 limb (Base cost ¥15,000, +3 Agility, ¥4500, +3 Body, ¥4500, +3 Strength, 4500 = ¥28,500, deltaware x10 = ¥285,000). My gut reaction is that this is excessively punitive.

I fail to see a problem with that math, deltaware is supposed to be expensive and that human arm is nothin combared to a maxed out troll arm that would cost about 200k (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) more

[Yerameyahu]

Yes. I dunno why people think a Troll should be able to get a 'normal' arm for himself as cheaply and easily as a human. It's not fair, it's capitalism.

[Sengir]

Spare parts for a Porsche cost more than Yugo or Trabant parts...

(ignoring availability problems (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) )

[DrZaius]

I've made a bunch of custom cyberlimbs recently, and they come out to be about 30 grand. Buying anything at deltaware is expensive...

[Ryu]

Is the extra cost for customized cyberlimbs (+¥1500 per Attribute point) applied before or after the cost multiplier for improving the limb's grade? The former would seem more in line with the spirit of the rules, but leads to (potentially), a ¥285,000 limb (Base cost ¥15,000, +3 Agility, ¥4500, +3 Body, ¥4500, +3 Strength, 4500 = ¥28,500, deltaware x10 = ¥285,000). My gut reaction is that this is excessively punitive.

There is only on delta-limb (maybe a pair) made specifically for you. This one is stretching the limit. The price is a bargain if you want it.

[Traul]

Spare parts for a Porsche cost more than Yugo or Trabant parts...

(ignoring availability problems (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) )

My next troll will call humans Trabants (IMG:style_emoticons/default/love.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

There is only on delta-limb (maybe a pair) made specifically for you. This one is stretching the limit. The price is a bargain if you want it.

Not sure why you could not get a Full Set Delta Limb Replacement (Including the Torso and Head Frames)... What exactly are you trying to say here?

Keep the Faith

[Mäx]

Not sure why you could not get a Full Set Delta Limb Replacement (Including the Torso and Head Frames)... What exactly are you trying to say here?

Keep the Faith

He's saying that customised deltaware cyber limbs are one of kind items, so that price is pretty much a bargain.

[MikeKozar]

This is why Deltaware in my game is mostly a Corporate gimmick. My last major Corp NPC had personal assistants who were using synthetic limbs at Deltaware. Looked Human, damned lethal if you crossed them. Checking my notes here, about 2.3 million nuyen worth of implants in each one, per RAW. Null perspiration for a megacorp, naturally, but some gutterpunk mercenary? I scoff, sir!

[Ravennus]

Not sure why you could not get a Full Set Delta Limb Replacement (Including the Torso and Head Frames)... What exactly are you trying to say here?

Keep the Faith

I could be wrong, but it sounds like Ryu is Tenegar's GM, and he's basically saying...
"In the game, you have the opportunity to get access to a delta clinic and have one (maybe two) cyberlimbs implanted. Take it or leave it, but the price is a bargain."

Meanwhile Tenegar did the math, and realized that once he/she customizes the limb and applies the deltware cost multiplier... it gets a tad expensive. Still a bargain (deltware-wise), but probably a lot more than Tenegar bargained on.


Of course, I could be totally wrong. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Mäx]

This is why Deltaware in my game is mostly a Corporate gimmick. My last major Corp NPC had personal assistants who were using synthetic limbs at Deltaware. Looked Human, damned lethal if you crossed them. Checking my notes here, about 2.3 million nuyen worth of implants in each one, per RAW. Null perspiration for a megacorp, naturally, but some gutterpunk mercenary? I scoff, sir!

And thats still using cheap implants, for example Deltaware Synaptic Booster 3 alone costs a whopping 2,4 million (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) .

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

He's saying that customised deltaware cyber limbs are one of kind items, so that price is pretty much a bargain.

Gotcha...

Keep the Faith

[Manunancy]

Yes. I dunno why people think a Troll should be able to get a 'normal' arm for himself as cheaply and easily as a human. It's not fair, it's capitalism.

I woulf think that it's easier to cram a given strength into a troll-sized limb than an human one - with space less of a premium you can use bulkier systems to save cost. This would apply to a lesser degree to a cyberlimb designed for orks. Dwarves would get the short end of the stick there.

[MikeKozar]

And thats still using cheap implants, for example Deltaware Synaptic Booster 3 alone costs a whopping 2,4 million (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) .

We were playing with the old rules, where Cultured Bioware is automatically considered to be Deltaware.

When bioware was first introduced, it was explained that while most bioware was simply cloned from a Type-O baseline, it was possible to have it grown specifically to your genetic profile, as Cultured Bioware, which used the rules for Deltaware. This was implied to involve growing a clone of you in a tank, so assume the process was both lengthy and expensive. Some mods, mostly involving the brain and nervous system, were so delicate they were only available as Cultured Bioware, and no better version existed.

This limitation did not make it into SR4; Augmentation p127 clearly states that Cultured Bioware is available in Alpha, Beta, and Delta grades.

[Mäx]

This limitation did not make it into SR4; Augmentation p127 clearly states that Cultured Bioware is available in Alpha, Beta, and Delta grades.

i would see that more as technology improving the years between the editions making it so that even cultured bioware can be mad more essence friendly.

[Ryu]

I could be wrong, but it sounds like Ryu is Tenegar's GM, and he's basically saying...
"In the game, you have the opportunity to get access to a delta clinic and have one (maybe two) cyberlimbs implanted. Take it or leave it, but the price is a bargain."

Meanwhile Tenegar did the math, and realized that once he/she customizes the limb and applies the deltware cost multiplier... it gets a tad expensive. Still a bargain (deltware-wise), but probably a lot more than Tenegar bargained on.


Of course, I could be totally wrong. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Wrong? Depends. I´m not a GM right now, and wouldn´t know Tenegar, but deltaware was/is available in my/our games. You just have to work for it. The chance to get deltaware will often come with a means of paying for it...

[Tanegar]

On page 313 of SR4A, the last sentence under "Cyberware and Bioware Grades" reads, "Note that cyberware accessories must be of the same grade as the implant they are added to." Just to clarify, does the term "cyberware accessories" include everything that could be installed in an implant, i.e., everything with a Capacity cost?

[Udoshi]

Tanegar, i was just going to point that out.

Cyberlimbs are very poorly worded, sometimes. I believe the -intent- of the rule is to make everything added on super expensive.

But..... Enhancements aren't accessories. Nor are Optimized limbs. There are actually several different categories of stuff you can slap on cyberlimbs - check out Augmentation.

Your mileage may vary.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Tanegar, i was just going to point that out.

Cyberlimbs are very poorly worded, sometimes. I believe the -intent- of the rule is to make everything added on super expensive.

But..... Enhancements aren't accessories. Nor are Optimized limbs. There are actually several different categories of stuff you can slap on cyberlimbs - check out Augmentation.

Your mileage may vary.

Except that Enhancements are Add-Ons to Limbs, and as such ADD a certain price to the base limb... now, if you want your limb to be Delta Grade, you add on your Stat/Armor enhancements/customizations to the base limb, and then you pay the multiplier for that Delta Grade Option (after your enhancements have been applied to the Limb itself)... any Other Cpacity specific items must also be the Same Grade, so you must purchase them at the same Grade as the limb that they are installed in... So a Delta Grade Cyberarm will not accept a standard grade Cyberarm Gyromount... you would have to spring for a Delta Grade Gyromount to put in your Delta Grade Arm... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Keep the Faith

[Emy]

On page 313 of SR4A, the last sentence under "Cyberware and Bioware Grades" reads, "Note that cyberware accessories must be of the same grade as the implant they are added to." Just to clarify, does the term "cyberware accessories" include everything that could be installed in an implant, i.e., everything with a Capacity cost?

In Augmentation, there's a specific category called "Cyberlimb Accessories". I treat that sentence as referring to those accessories.

It's by no means unambiguous, though.

any Other Cpacity specific items must also be the Same Grade, so you must purchase them at the same Grade as the limb that they are installed in...
Keep the Faith

Udoshi and Tanegar were just discussing the actual rules that determine whether or not this is the case. Perhaps you should review the information contained within their posts before making the above assertion.

Keep the Capital Letters to a Maximum

[Yerameyahu]

If anything has to be the same grade, it's enhancements and optimizations, etc. The argument *might* be made that the commlink you slot into capacity does not, but I can't see anyone arguing that the Strength increase doesn't.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

In Augmentation, there's a specific category called "Cyberlimb Accessories". I treat that sentence as referring to those accessories.

It's by no means unambiguous, though.



Udoshi and Tanegar were just discussing the actual rules that determine whether or not this is the case. Perhaps you should review the information contained within their posts before making the above assertion.

Keep the Capital Letters to a Maximum

Thanks for your concern; and yes, I saw the discussion... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Keep the Faith

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

If anything has to be the same grade, it's enhancements and optimizations, etc. The argument *might* be made that the commlink you slot into capacity does not, but I can't see anyone arguing that the Strength increase doesn't.

You could indeed make that argument, but since a Comlink can take up capacity, it must be the same grade as the limb it is installed in, per the rules in the book...

There is a lot of flex in the interpretation if you want to push it a bit, I will admit, but it is not really all that unambiguous to me... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Keep the Faith

[Emy]

If anything has to be the same grade, it's enhancements and optimizations, etc. The argument *might* be made that the commlink you slot into capacity does not, but I can't see anyone arguing that the Strength increase doesn't.

You can't? That's interesting.

You could indeed make that argument, but since a Comlink can take up capacity, it must be the same grade as the limb it is installed in, per the rules in the book...

That's not what the rules in the book actually say, though. Those rules state that "cyberware accessories" must be the same grade as the cyberware into which they're installed. Meaning that one group of items on Aug. p45 (which are specifically listed as accessories) must be the same grade as the implant to which they're added.

The book doesn't mention anything about items that "can take up capacity" being special. It calls out "cyberware accessories" as being special.