[X] My Assistant

[Cabral]

As the artificial genetic chances can be done using the same mechanisms nature can use to install new DNA in our genome, ie retroviral insertions.

Except that they are not the same mechanisms. The flaw is your assumption, not the internal consistency.

[Mordinvan]

Except that they are not the same mechanisms. The flaw is your assumption, not the internal consistency.

So they are not done using retroviruses? Odd because in the fluff text describing how genetic changes are made, it says they ARE done using retroviruses.

[Yerameyahu]

Doesn't matter. It didn't happen naturally, therefore it's not exactly the same.

[Mordinvan]

Doesn't matter. It didn't happen naturally, therefore it's not exactly the same.

Well it didn't happen 'supernaturally', so it happened 'naturally', those really are your only 2 options.

[Yerameyahu]

Nope. It's artificial. For the 6th time. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Well it didn't happen 'supernaturally', so it happened 'naturally', those really are your only 2 options.

Actually, it happened because someone performed the surgery... this is not Natural, nor is it Supernatural... It is a contrived organism made by man... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Mordinvan]

Actually, it happened because someone performed the surgery... this is not Natural, nor is it Supernatural... It is a contrived organism made by man... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

If you're going to claim it is somehow an astrally registrable 'intent' on the part of the genetic engineer which leaves behind the stain which steals your soul, then have the virus designed, and built in a lab where the only sentient organism is an A.I., and that way there will be no astral signature to it, aside of that of inert chemicals.

edit:
Made by man, ok, so hypothetically speaking, and ERV wakes up in person X, and manages to destroy both copies of their myostatin gene, thus generating someone with a 'fully natural' equivalent of muscle augmentation 4. This person marries someone else who has atleast 1 copy of that gene inactivated, and they have a child, who winds up as a result with 2 nonfunctional copies of that gene. As a result this child from conception has muscle augmentation 4.
]
Contrast with

Person Y goes to a genetics lab, and has their copies of myostatin inactivated by a synthetic copy of the same ERV which hit person X. As a result they have muscle aug 4 too aswell now. Person Y marries the identical twin of the individual person X did. They have a child who from conception has 2 inactive copies of the myo statin gene, and as a result they too have muscle augmentation level 4.

Both children carry the same mutations, inflicted by the same virus, and you are trying to tell me one of them has less essence because one of their parents was exposed to someone 'intending' something at some point?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

If you're going to claim it is somehow an astrally registrable 'intent' on the part of the genetic engineer which leaves behind the stain which steals your soul, then have the virus designed, and built in a lab where the only sentient organism is an A.I., and that way there will be no astral signature to it, aside of that of inert chemicals.

edit:
Made by man, ok, so hypothetically speaking, and ERV wakes up in person X, and manages to destroy both copies of their myostatin gene, thus generating someone with a 'fully natural' equivalent of muscle augmentation 4. This person marries someone else who has atleast 1 copy of that gene inactivated, and they have a child, who winds up as a result with 2 nonfunctional copies of that gene. As a result this child from conception has muscle augmentation 4.
]
Contrast with

Person Y goes to a genetics lab, and has their copies of myostatin inactivated by a synthetic copy of the same ERV which hit person X. As a result they have muscle aug 4 too aswell now. Person Y marries the identical twin of the individual person X did. They have a child who from conception has 2 inactive copies of the myo statin gene, and as a result they too have muscle augmentation level 4.

Both children carry the same mutations, inflicted by the same virus, and you are trying to tell me one of them has less essence because one of their parents was exposed to someone 'intending' something at some point?

Too much technobabble... Genehacks cost Essence in the immediate Offspring thereof... maybe that (the essence loss) does not carry to the 3rd generation, maybe it does... we do not know, because the technology is so new we do not have the knowledge derived from years and years of testing, nor do we have a 3rd generation human offspring from which to test any theories... it is all just conjecture at the moment.

KISS... the Motto to stand by... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Gortrek Bloodspl...]

Except that Enhancements are Add-Ons to Limbs, and as such ADD a certain price to the base limb... now, if you want your limb to be Delta Grade, you add on your Stat/Armor enhancements/customizations to the base limb, and then you pay the multiplier for that Delta Grade Option (after your enhancements have been applied to the Limb itself)... any Other Cpacity specific items must also be the Same Grade, so you must purchase them at the same Grade as the limb that they are installed in... So a Delta Grade Cyberarm will not accept a standard grade Cyberarm Gyromount... you would have to spring for a Delta Grade Gyromount to put in your Delta Grade Arm... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Keep the Faith

I know this is jumping back a bit, but both enhancements for or customized Cyberlimbs would be subject to the Delta grade x10 multiplier. The only difference is that the enhancement would be cheaper but cost capacity and the customized cyberlimb would be +1,500 per additional point? I'm just trying to make sure I'm reading this right.

[Cabral]

If you're going to claim it is somehow an astrally registrable 'intent' on the part of the genetic engineer which leaves behind the stain which steals your soul, then have the virus designed, and built in a lab where the only sentient organism is an A.I., and that way there will be no astral signature to it, aside of that of inert chemicals.

It's not the intent. The intent doesn't matter. It's a lack of understanding of the astral shadow. Sometime down the line, as science develops a sufficient understanding of the astral genetic code, the will be able to manipulate genetics with little or no impact on Essence. At that time, we may even have Essence free cyber and bio.

Think of it this way: The chromosomes actually have 3 strands. 2 strands we've known about for a long time and have decoded. The third, a set of astral markers we can't even perceive but can see their impact. At this point, manipulating this third set of markers is at the basic level early animal husbandry. A retrovirus used for genetic manipulation contains either no astral markers or an unpredictable set. I am going to assume the first. Either way, when it monkeys with your genetics, it creates a dissonance between the genetics and the astral markers. Things get out of whack and you lose Essence. For most of the populace, you get some mild side effects that are read to you in a pleasant voice at the end of the commercial. See their add in Augmented Health for more details. For the awakened, they get a kick in the mojo gonads.

[Mordinvan]

It's not the intent. The intent doesn't matter. It's a lack of understanding of the astral shadow. Sometime down the line, as science develops a sufficient understanding of the astral genetic code, the will be able to manipulate genetics with little or no impact on Essence. At that time, we may even have Essence free cyber and bio.

Think of it this way: The chromosomes actually have 3 strands. 2 strands we've known about for a long time and have decoded. The third, a set of astral markers we can't even perceive but can see their impact. At this point, manipulating this third set of markers is at the basic level early animal husbandry. A retrovirus used for genetic manipulation contains either no astral markers or an unpredictable set. I am going to assume the first. Either way, when it monkeys with your genetics, it creates a dissonance between the genetics and the astral markers. Things get out of whack and you lose Essence. For most of the populace, you get some mild side effects that are read to you in a pleasant voice at the end of the commercial. See their add in Augmented Health for more details. For the awakened, they get a kick in the mojo gonads.

Only problem with that is we use all the same enzymes, and chemical precursors to make a virus, that a virus uses to make a virus. So unless all retro viruses have the same problem, and you lose essence each time you contract one, and that essence loss is passed on to your kids (ps, humans have dozens of them stuck in our genome), this doesn't really work.

[darthmord]

I'm actually saying inducing the same mutation as that which occurs naturally should be indistinguishable. Given that DNA casts an astral shadow which effects how the DNA folds, which effects its astral shadow,(wash rinse repeat), it does in fact come down to DNA being a large contributing factor. If the DNA for a given gene between 2 individuals were born with is identical, there is no reason for one to be charged essence for it, while the other is not.

Just because the mutation occurs naturally doesn't mean the man-made version works the same AND appears identical to the natural mutation.

And yes there is reason for it to cost Essence. One was born with it naturally occurring while the other started with a value that was later re-written / overridden.

Methinks you are arguing for the sake of arguing. If you don't like the fluff, change it. There's no need to bitch at the rest of us because it makes sense and we are okay with it as is.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I know this is jumping back a bit, but both enhancements for or customized Cyberlimbs would be subject to the Delta grade x10 multiplier. The only difference is that the enhancement would be cheaper but cost capacity and the customized cyberlimb would be +1,500 per additional point? I'm just trying to make sure I'm reading this right.

That is exactly what I was saying... In my opinion, that is how it actually works, but there are some who actively disagree with my interpretation. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Mordinvan]

Just because the mutation occurs naturally doesn't mean the man-made version works the same AND appears identical to the natural mutation.

You are correct, in that it does not mean it DOES share the same codding as the natural mutation, but given the natural mutation integrates seamlessly into human physiology, there would be no reason not to replicate it.

And yes there is reason for it to cost Essence. One was born with it naturally occurring while the other started with a value that was later re-written / overridden.

As my primary complaint is bases on the idea of second generation geneware costing essence, the 'other' would have 'started' with the same value as the first.

Methinks you are arguing for the sake of arguing. If you don't like the fluff, change it. There's no need to bitch at the rest of us because it makes sense and we are okay with it as is.

Actually I'm 'arguing' because having studied genetics and heredity I can safely conclude it does not make sense as presented in augmentation. Also I an not bitching AT you, I am more pointing out how thus far every explanation I have been exposed to, for how this inconsistency occurs, is logically wrong, given the information known about how heredity works, and how SR itself explains the interactions of DNA with its own astral shadows.

[Cabral]

Only problem with that is we use all the same enzymes, and chemical precursors to make a virus, that a virus uses to make a virus. So unless all retro viruses have the same problem, and you lose essence each time you contract one, and that essence loss is passed on to your kids (ps, humans have dozens of them stuck in our genome), this doesn't really work.

Naturally occurring viruses (spell check says "viruses" is correct, but I thought it was "virii") have natural astral shadows. Manufactured viruses have unpredictable astral shadows. We've verified that that DNA or RNA tags match up but we can't even examine the Astral tags to see if they are the same or different, let alone manipulate them.

[KarmaInferno]

You are correct, in that it does not mean it DOES share the same codding as the natural mutation, but given the natural mutation integrates seamlessly into human physiology, there would be no reason not to replicate it.

That's assuming they KNOW precisely how the "naturally occurring" version of a mutation works, and/or that they CAN replicate it.

That's a big assumption.

It may be that the flawed, "artificial" version, that incurs an essence loss, is the best they can do right now.



-karma

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

That's assuming they KNOW precisely how the "naturally occurring" version of a mutation works, and/or that they CAN replicate it.

That's a big assumption.

It may be that the flawed, "artificial" version, that incurs an essence loss, is the best they can do right now.

-karma

Oh, The Horror of it all... Say it isn't so... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Mordinvan]

It may be that the flawed, "artificial" version, that incurs an essence loss, is the best they can do right now.

I'm sorry but that doesn't really hold much water. If it was true then creating an entire fully functional synthetic genome would be impossible as if doing such modification to a single gene would cause essence loss significant enough to measure, doing it to a genome would never allow for a viable organism, yet SR has transgenic 'art' organisms for sale among others.

[Cabral]

Sorry, but your dismissive post doesn't hold much water. The genetic modifications available in SR are not that pricey, Essence-wise and I don't believe the Essence values of any transgenetic creation is provided.

So, no, SR's Essence explanations ARE reasonably internally consistent and the only conflict is from your assumptions.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Sorry, but your dismissive post doesn't hold much water. The genetic modifications available in SR are not that pricey, Essence-wise and I don't believe the Essence values of any transgenetic creation is provided.

So, no, SR's Essence explanations ARE reasonably internally consistent and the only conflict is from your assumptions.

^^^ This...