[X] My Assistant

[Tanegar]

You can't? That's interesting.



That's not what the rules in the book actually say, though. Those rules state that "cyberware accessories" must be the same grade as the cyberware into which they're installed. Meaning that one group of items on Aug. p45 (which are specifically listed as accessories) must be the same grade as the implant to which they're added.

The book doesn't mention anything about items that "can take up capacity" being special. It calls out "cyberware accessories" as being special.

The bit you're referring to in Augmentation says "cyberlimb accessories," while SR4A refers to "cyberware accessories." My question is, do things like cybereye add-ons (low-light, thermo, smartlink, etc.) have to be the same grade (and thus apply the same cost multiplier) as the implant they're added to?

[Yerameyahu]

One assumes 'yes', but one never 'remembers' to play that way. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Emy]

The bit you're referring to in Augmentation says "cyberlimb accessories," while SR4A refers to "cyberware accessories."

Cyberlimbs are a subset of cyberware, so cyberlimb accessories are necessarily cyberware accessories.

[Tanegar]

But not all cyberware accessories are cyberlimb accessories. I'm referring to the general case, not the specific.

[Mordinvan]

If anything has to be the same grade, it's enhancements and optimizations, etc. The argument *might* be made that the commlink you slot into capacity does not, but I can't see anyone arguing that the Strength increase doesn't.

Actually the only thing which 'should' need to be delta grade is the interface between flesh and metal. The rest of the limb beyond that point shouldn't really matter. Rules say otherwise, but many, many rules in SR tend not to make a great deal of sense.

[Mongoose]

Actually the only thing which 'should' need to be delta grade is the interface between flesh and metal.

Pheh, as if. If you want to fool the body / aura into thinking a limb is "human" (or simply minimize mechanical stress on the rest of the body) you need to do a lot of work to make the limb balance and move in a natural manner, and so on. With a stock limb, you can get away with simpler joint designs, for example, or making the lower limb a bit bulky.
Also, the to make the "interface" delta grade, you need to have high(er) performance sensors and controllers all through the limb. No point putting a drive by wire system on a jalopy, so to speak.
Making the entire limb more expensive is certainly justifiable. Now, if you wanted to talk about accessories (especially something like a built in comlink), then it gets a bit wonky.

[IKerensky]

Actually the only thing which 'should' need to be delta grade is the interface between flesh and metal. The rest of the limb beyond that point shouldn't really matter. Rules say otherwise, but many, many rules in SR tend not to make a great deal of sense.

This kind of comments always make me roll eyes... If you dont care/trust what the rules says, why care about entering a rule discussion (not house rules nor proposed rules amendment).

Rules can be flawed but they have the absolute advantage to be the same for everyone, they are the only things that make us all play the same game and thus communicate/comment efficiently. If we dont play by the sames rules then how could we comment/advice peoples ?

[Mordinvan]

Pheh, as if. If you want to fool the body / aura into thinking a limb is "human" (or simply minimize mechanical stress on the rest of the body) you need to do a lot of work to make the limb balance and move in a natural manner, and so on. With a stock limb, you can get away with simpler joint designs, for example, or making the lower limb a bit bulky.
Also, the to make the "interface" delta grade, you need to have high(er) performance sensors and controllers all through the limb. No point putting a drive by wire system on a jalopy, so to speak.
Making the entire limb more expensive is certainly justifiable. Now, if you wanted to talk about accessories (especially something like a built in comlink), then it gets a bit wonky.

The Aura does not go all the way into the arm however. This is shown that you do not lose essence by amputating the arm. You lose essence when someone interfaces a cybernetic arm with your body, thus it is the interface which is the problem. Make that as kind as possible, and have a set of 'modular' arms that all hook up with a couple bolts and some USB 12 connections or something, and you should be good.

[Mordinvan]

This kind of comments always make me roll eyes... If you dont care/trust what the rules says, why care about entering a rule discussion (not house rules nor proposed rules amendment).

Rules can be flawed but they have the absolute advantage to be the same for everyone, they are the only things that make us all play the same game and thus communicate/comment efficiently. If we dont play by the sames rules then how could we comment/advice peoples ?

This kind of comments always make me roll eyes... If you dont care/trust what the rules says, why care about entering a rule discussion (not house rules nor proposed rules amendment).

The game makers have afterall make modular cyberlimbs which do pretty exactly what I said.

[Mäx]

The game makers have afterall make modular cyberlimbs which do pretty exactly what I said.

Modular parts have to be deltaware too if the connector is.

[Mordinvan]

Modular parts have to be deltaware too if the connector is.

Given how semantically troublesome this game can be, I think only cyberware accessories need to be the same grade, and all the modular parts are cyberlimb accessories.

[Yerameyahu]

… And that cyberware accessories aren't cyberlimb accessories? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

It's a lot more defensible to just say you don't care, than to argue that makes sense. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Mordinvan]

… And that cyberware accessories aren't cyberlimb accessories? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

It's a lot more defensible to just say you don't care, than to argue that makes sense. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

The game has plenty of instances where equivlent things are treated differently because they have different names, and very different things are treated the same way.
For examples vehicles don't have hardened armor, but there is no functional difference I am aware of between giving a vehicle regular armor and giving one hardened armor. Masking allowing you to look 'mundane' but it doesn't expressly state it allows you to turn an astral form into a simple aura, meaning it would make a duel natured creature appear to have a mundane astral form....

also, just back to the cyber limb accessories thing, who in their right mind would custom design a deltaware jackhammer just for someone with a modular limb? Some items simply don't make sense to come in delta grade.

[Yerameyahu]

Yes, but cyberlimbs are manifestly cyberware.

No, many things don't make sense. That's the argument I said was okay. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) But to argue that limb isn't ware is just silly.

I think the correct action is to say, 'screw it, doesn't make sense, rules unclear anyway'; but acknowledge that you're 'cheating'.

[Mäx]

Given how semantically troublesome this game can be, I think only cyberware accessories need to be the same grade, and all the modular parts are cyberlimb accessories.

I cant tell if your agreeing with what i said or disagreeing.
From what you wrote it seems you do agree, but then i don't see the point of you writing that long ass sentence in the first place.

[Mordinvan]

I cant tell if your agreeing with what i said or disagreeing.
From what you wrote it seems you do agree, but then i don't see the point of you writing that long ass sentence in the first place.

I feel somethings need to be bought at the ware of the limb, like strength upgrades, but slotting in a comlink, or jackhammer, not so much.

[Cabral]

Actually the only thing which 'should' need to be delta grade is the interface between flesh and metal. The rest of the limb beyond that point shouldn't really matter. Rules say otherwise, but many, many rules in SR tend not to make a great deal of sense.

Then I suppose you won't mind if the Deltagrade discount is reduced or eliminated from ware that has limited interfacing with the nervous system. I mean, bone lacing is bone lacing and you can't improve the interface.

Your position reflects an assumption that Essence is a representation of the impact on your physiological system when Shadowrun is a game of dualities. Just like the physical is reflected on the astral, and to a degree, vice-versa, Essence cannot be viewed as one half of that dual nature.

I have no issue saying your Delta arm can have standard grade mods. I also have no issue charging Essence loss based upon the lowest grade component in your cyberware.

[Mordinvan]

Then I suppose you won't mind if the Deltagrade discount is reduced or eliminated from ware that has limited interfacing with the nervous system. I mean, bone lacing is bone lacing and you can't improve the interface.

Actually my problem with the bone lacing is because its installed via nanites, and there is no real 'surgery' to install it persay, I think it should be dirt cheep to begin with. You are correct in assuming I don't feel it should come in 'grades' but then again, titanium coated on calcium phosphate is bio-invisible, and you body should be completely unable to recognize its there, so unless human spirits are allergic to titanium, there is no reason for it to have the essence cost it does.

Your position reflects an assumption that Essence is a representation of the impact on your physiological system when Shadowrun is a game of dualities. Just like the physical is reflected on the astral, and to a degree, vice-versa, Essence cannot be viewed as one half of that dual nature.

My position reflects the fact that the essence system in SR is terribly broken, and I do not mean in any munchkin sense of the word. I mean in that there is no internally consistent explanation for how it works which does not rely on the phrase 'its magic'.

I have no issue saying your Delta arm can have standard grade mods. I also have no issue charging Essence loss based upon the lowest grade component in your cyberware.

I too have no issue allowing someone to fit any grade of mod into a cyber limb they want. There may be interface issues and the like, but it should be 'possible'.

[darthmord]

We've always played it such that any accessory for any piece of cyberware must match the grade of the base unit of cyberware. So if you have Delta eyes, your eye accessories must be delta as well.

As for Bone lacing... it changes the aura because it's implanted into the body. It's sufficiently invasive that it registers in your Aura. That's what Essence is... a metric to measure the overall changes to your aura.

Besides, your body is the physical representation of your astral self / aura. Changes made to one affect the other.

Should the prices for bone lacing change? That's a different discussion. But having them present is perfectly valid.

[Mordinvan]

We've always played it such that any accessory for any piece of cyberware must match the grade of the base unit of cyberware. So if you have Delta eyes, your eye accessories must be delta as well.

As for Bone lacing... it changes the aura because it's implanted into the body. It's sufficiently invasive that it registers in your Aura. That's what Essence is... a metric to measure the overall changes to your aura.

Besides, your body is the physical representation of your astral self / aura. Changes made to one affect the other.

Should the prices for bone lacing change? That's a different discussion. But having them present is perfectly valid.

Statements like this beg the question, of what happened before the awakening? Since no one had auras because there was no magic to generate them?

[Cabral]

Statements like this beg the question, of what happened before the awakening? Since no one had auras because there was no magic to generate them?

Says who? Just because an even higher percentage of the populace lacked the ability to interact and perceive them, does not mean that they were not present.

Immortal Elves
Reiki / faith healers
Fortune tellers
That bad give you get when you walk into certain areas...
These could all possibly be examples of aura interaction and/or sensitivity pre-awakening. Well, in the case of IEs, during the fifth world, I don't know how much of their Adept abilities they retained from the fourth world.

[Mordinvan]

Says who? Just because an even higher percentage of the populace lacked the ability to interact and perceive them, does not mean that they were not present.

Immortal Elves
Reiki / faith healers
Fortune tellers
That bad give you get when you walk into certain areas...
These could all possibly be examples of aura interaction and/or sensitivity pre-awakening. Well, in the case of IEs, during the fifth world, I don't know how much of their Adept abilities they retained from the fourth world.

Given Faith healers, Fortune tellers, and that bad feeling, all have rational non supernatural explanations, I don't really see their existence in the 5th world proves much of anything. I understand the game wants some form of balancing mechanic to keep the total amount of cyber ware down, but I just don't think saying your soul gets emo and leaves is a terribly good one. Using essence as a measure of how 'accurately' one's body reflects their spirit has a whole host of problems including stagnating biological adaptation, and preventing organ and tissue cloning.

[MikeKozar]

My position reflects the fact that the essence system in SR is terribly broken, and I do not mean in any munchkin sense of the word. I mean in that there is no internally consistent explanation for how it works which does not rely on the phrase 'its magic'.

That's likely because the literal explanation is that it is, in fact, magic. The backstory and fluff all handwave Essence loss as damage to the astral presence of a living thing, without which it cannot survive. To the best of my knowledge, it has always been tied more to degree of inhumanity then to medical impact. It is not science, it is magic.

Of course, as players, we can look behind the curtain at *why* Essence loss is in place - it is a deliberate power cap on cyborg characters. More specifically, with cyberware grades, it allows that cap to be overcome to a degree with sufficient money. RAW, that cap is in place; you're welcome to houserule around it if you want.

[Cabral]

Given Faith healers, Fortune tellers, and that bad feeling, all have rational non supernatural explanations, I don't really see their existence in the 5th world proves much of anything.

If you dismiss Immortal Elves, and various potential expressions pre-6th world expressions of magic, then it is not a wonder why Essence doesn't make sense.

Using essence as a measure of how 'accurately' one's body reflects their spirit has a whole host of problems including stagnating biological adaptation, and preventing organ and tissue cloning.

Not really. Mana/the Aura interacts on the genetic level. (Source Augmentation?) Given the awakened creatures that appeared, I would say, it accelerates biological adaptation, but that could simply be re-emergence of pre-existing awakened variations. And tissue cloning is not an issue as that explicitly is not an impact on Essence.

[Mordinvan]

That's likely because the literal explanation is that it is, in fact, magic. The backstory and fluff all handwave Essence loss as damage to the astral presence of a living thing, without which it cannot survive. To the best of my knowledge, it has always been tied more to degree of inhumanity then to medical impact. It is not science, it is magic.

Of course, as players, we can look behind the curtain at *why* Essence loss is in place - it is a deliberate power cap on cyborg characters. More specifically, with cyberware grades, it allows that cap to be overcome to a degree with sufficient money. RAW, that cap is in place; you're welcome to houserule around it if you want.

The unthought of impact of essence scores however is that no organism can now undergo any significant level of genetic change. In effect evolution becomes impossible. Bacteria can not develop immunities to antibiotics because doing to would cost them enough essence to kill them. Same for viruses and anti-viral medications. That's just the microscopic level. Vitas could never have come about, and most of the biological agents which the game freely admits exist could not. Tissue could not be cloned, nor could bioware be engineered. Having essence relate how closely your body matches its ideal prototype also falls flat on its face when dealing with severe injury. You do not lose essence if I cut both your legs off, but you do for having cyber limbs attached. Having body parts missing or malformed because of surgery, birth defect, injury or any other number of reasons does seems to effect your essence. 'Fixing' these problems however does. The a child who was deformed due to a congenital birth defect has 6 essence, dispite the fact his body does not match his genetics or his idealized 'template', another child, who's parents were engineered, and who's body DOES match his genetics, does not have 6 essence.