Custom cyberlimbs and cyberware grades, Let's do math! Options

[Mordinvan]

Not really. Mana/the Aura interacts on the genetic level. (Source Augmentation?) Given the awakened creatures that appeared, I would say, it accelerates biological adaptation, but that could simply be re-emergence of pre-existing awakened variations. And tissue cloning is not an issue as that explicitly is not an impact on Essence.

Its the fact its still possible which is the problem. If I have the 'right' collection of cyberware, most of my body can still be original, yet I'm missing enough essence my soul gets sad, and leaves. On the other hand, its possible to have a cloned heart tied to a machine, so that almost all of its 'body' is not set up according to any template, and yet the clone heart remains alive. The emergence of awakened creatures to my understanding was for the same reasons as it was for the other metahumans,(although I'm prepared to be wrong), but I thought it was simple reactivation of preexisting genetic elements, by novel folding partners in the creatures DNA caused by new astral shadows as a result of the increased manna?

If I'm mistaken about that part, I apologize.

[Mordinvan]

double post

[Yerameyahu]

Mordinvan, sounds like you're making assumptions and then refuting them. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) That's never a good practice. Essence is magic, and yes, it barely makes sense; so?

[Mordinvan]

Mordinvan, sounds like you're making assumptions and then refuting them. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) That's never a good practice. Essence is magic, and yes, it barely makes sense; so?

Not exactly sure what you mean by that?

[darthmord]

The unthought of impact of essence scores however is that no organism can now undergo any significant level of genetic change. In effect evolution becomes impossible. Bacteria can not develop immunities to antibiotics because doing to would cost them enough essence to kill them. Same for viruses and anti-viral medications. That's just the microscopic level.

Organisms most certainly can. If it's entirely natural for the organism to adapt to its surroundings, then adapting to antibiotics is part of its genetic code and Named expression.

Vitas could never have come about, and most of the biological agents which the game freely admits exist could not. Tissue could not be cloned, nor could bioware be engineered.

Care to explain this assertion? Vitas could have been a pandemic much like we've seen in reali life. Smallpox was responsible for a large number of human deaths in our own recent history.

Having essence relate how closely your body matches its ideal prototype also falls flat on its face when dealing with severe injury. You do not lose essence if I cut both your legs off, but you do for having cyber limbs attached.

No change if you lose them because you are not changing the basic you. It's still all natural how nature intended (albeit missing a few parts). Yet if you install implants, you are instituting a biochemical change which changes the fundamental nature of the body.

Having body parts missing or malformed because of surgery, birth defect, injury or any other number of reasons does seems to effect your essence. 'Fixing' these problems however does. The a child who was deformed due to a congenital birth defect has 6 essence, dispite the fact his body does not match his genetics or his idealized 'template', another child, who's parents were engineered, and who's body DOES match his genetics, does not have 6 essence.

You are conflating issues. A child born with a genetic defect *IS* born within *their* genetic profile. Just because it is regarded as a failure by people in no way changes whether or not the child is ideal under its own template. It's just a statement that its template isn't like most other people's. It's different. Like life. Sometimes differentiation results in unworkable / non-viable combinations.

That said, I do believe the reason the gene engineered parents having a child whose essence isn't 6 is a powergaming restriction. Otherwise, everyone and their brother would be creating runners whose parents were gene-engineered just to get bioware freebies. It's a restriction against powergaming IMO.

That said, I can still see the gene engineering causing issues downstream. If you accept Earthdawn as being the previous age of magic, the gene engineered humans aren't Named as such. they are still Named as being unaugmented humans and thus out-of-sync with the universal template for humans.

But honestly, if this is such an issue for you, change it for your game and let the rest of us be with our satisfaction of the game.

[Yerameyahu]

I mean that the 'problems' you're referring to seem to be invented by you, not the game. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Mordinvan]

Organisms most certainly can. If it's entirely natural for the organism to adapt to its surroundings, then adapting to antibiotics is part of its genetic code and Named expression.

Unfortunately simply being what you're genes say you should be is not good enough, because if it was second generation geneware would not cost essence. Since it does, genetic mutations which remove one from their 'named' template, which would include pretty much ALL mutations are problematic.

Care to explain this assertion? Vitas could have been a pandemic much like we've seen in reali life. Smallpox was responsible for a large number of human deaths in our own recent history.

Yes smallpox was, however Vitas is as far as I know a reasonably new virus, meaning it most likely underwent some fairly significant genetic changes recently.

No change if you lose them because you are not changing the basic you. It's still all natural how nature intended (albeit missing a few parts). Yet if you install implants, you are instituting a biochemical change which changes the fundamental nature of the body.

Actually, no your not changing the bodies biochemistry. A cyberware infact is actually reasonably unlikely to change much of your biochemistry in most cases anyway. What WILL however do it almost all the time is bioware.

You are conflating issues. A child born with a genetic defect *IS* born within *their* genetic profile. Just because it is regarded as a failure by people in no way changes whether or not the child is ideal under its own template. It's just a statement that its template isn't like most other people's. It's different. Like life. Sometimes differentiation results in unworkable / non-viable combinations.

I never said genetic defects, I said congenital. The body for some reason does not develop as it was genetically programed too. This is a fault assumption on your part. Many of the defects which can occur during pregnancy are rare 'errors' which occur due to injury, chemical contact, or just random low probability cell chemical signaling errors. It is entirely possible, and highly probable that a clone of this individual would develop into a healthy adult human being, and not have said defect present.

That said, I do believe the reason the gene engineered parents having a child whose essence isn't 6 is a powergaming restriction. Otherwise, everyone and their brother would be creating runners whose parents were gene-engineered just to get bioware freebies. It's a restriction against powergaming IMO.

Its a restriction which makes the concept of essence of biological dead end. It demonstrates that genetic changes from one generation to the next are in fact detrimental to the long term health of the organism.

That said, I can still see the gene engineering causing issues downstream. If you accept Earthdawn as being the previous age of magic, the gene engineered humans aren't Named as such. they are still Named as being unaugmented humans and thus out-of-sync with the universal template for humans.

Except I can point to real world humans who could the genes needed for augmented muscles, bones, eyes, and many other beneficial mutations.

But honestly, if this is such an issue for you, change it for your game and let the rest of us be with our satisfaction of the game.

Hey I'm just asking for an internally consistent explanation. If you're good with a game world that looks like swiss cheese, then i'm happy for you.

[Yerameyahu]

It's a mechanical rule with a little fluff spraypainted on. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Surprise! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Your whole argument is based on the Genetic Heritage quality?

[MikeKozar]

Its a restriction which makes the concept of essence of biological dead end. It demonstrates that genetic changes from one generation to the next are in fact detrimental to the long term health of the organism.

Hey I'm just asking for an internally consistent explanation. If you're good with a game world that looks like swiss cheese, then i'm happy for you.

As has been said before, the system does not impede evolution - natural changes to your basic template do not cause Essence loss, while unnatural ones do. It's kind of like SURGE, or Metatypes: Trolls do not lose essence for having augmented physical abilities, or natural armor - they are Trolls. A Human, modified to have the same stats, is no longer quite human. The interesting thing with bioware is that some of those unnatural changes can be passed down through the germ line. It is still unnatural...from a magical perspective.

The internally consistant explanation you are asking for is that it is a game rule, a conceit to make full cyborgs uncommon. It is also a dramatic device, emphasizing the loss of humanity as one modifies himself, which is a holdover from the days when Shadowrun was a more dystopian world. As I (and others) explained before, there is nothing internally inconsistent with Essence, because it is simply not based on science. It doesn't make a lick of difference if your implant is biologically traumatic or not, or if the interface is active or passive, or if the change is cloned tissue or polished chrome. That is not why you lose Essence.

Essence loss is caused by changing what you are. That is all.

[darthmord]

I do have to add that in Man & Machine (iirc), the process of implanting was described and that certain biochemical changes had to be made in order to interface the machine with the man.

It also explained that was why cyberware andd other assorted implants have a deleterious effect upon living organisms.

Also, the universal template for organism X isn't that narrow. Look at humans. We naturally come in all sorts of shapes, sizes, colors, pigments, hair, etc. Some are born with 12 fingers, most with 10.

It's a wide genome with a great variability for expression. That genome also allows for certain levels of mutations to occur. Improvements that occur naturally within that range of expression incur no harm to Essence.

Granting improvements to the organism outside of that range incur harm to Essence. Your Pattern has started to deviate from the Pattern the Universe expects for your type of organism.

[Mordinvan]

I mean that the 'problems' you're referring to seem to be invented by you, not the game. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

The problems are due to totally inconsistent applications of what causes essence loss, and even the idea of what essence loss is.

[Mordinvan]

It is still unnatural...from a magical perspective.

Meaning 'what' exactly? How does magic know the difference 2 generations down the line between an engineered gene, and a natural one? More importantly if genetic engineering causes essence loss, how do 'transgenic art' organisms, or any of the other ton of engineered creatures even exist?

The internally consistant explanation you are asking for is that it is a game rule, a conceit to make full cyborgs uncommon. It is also a dramatic device, emphasizing the loss of humanity as one modifies himself, which is a holdover from the days when Shadowrun was a more dystopian world. As I (and others) explained before, there is nothing internally inconsistent with Essence, because it is simply not based on science. It doesn't make a lick of difference if your implant is biologically traumatic or not, or if the interface is active or passive, or if the change is cloned tissue or polished chrome. That is not why you lose Essence.

Essence loss is caused by changing what you are. That is all.

Excellent, changing what I am, so what happens if I have always been this way? second generation geneware?

[MikeKozar]

Excellent, changing what I am, so what happens if I have always been this way? second generation geneware?

...you blame your parents, same as everybody else.


You seem really pissed off about magic. Are you sure you wouldn't be happier playing something else?

[Mordinvan]

...you blame your parents, same as everybody else.


You seem really pissed off about magic. Are you sure you wouldn't be happier playing something else?

Actually I'm not pissed off about most of the magic system, as the way most of it is explained makes some sense, and is internally consistent. The parts involving its interactions with technology, and essence loss however, are woefully inadequate.

[Walpurgisborn]

Meaning 'what' exactly? How does magic know the difference 2 generations down the line between an engineered gene, and a natural one? More importantly if genetic engineering causes essence loss, how do 'transgenic art' organisms, or any of the other ton of engineered creatures even exist?


Excellent, changing what I am, so what happens if I have always been this way? second generation geneware?

I tend to think of it as two-fold, in order to make sense. For those people who have genetic heritage, the needed changes require significant early medical care/microsurgery to be effectively active. Sure you have that adrenal gland, because that was passed down, but you didn't end up with the lymphatic system to support it. Most of your childhood and adolescents were spent correcting the issue. Probably not supported in anyway by rules or fluff, but it makes sense to me

in regards to corrective surgery on children, I assume that, like their neurology, a child's aura and essence are unformed and only start to solidify as they age. Neural damage in infancy and early childhood can be self-corrected to a greater degree, but it stops being possible later in life.

[Mordinvan]

I tend to think of it as two-fold, in order to make sense. For those people who have genetic heritage, the needed changes require significant early medical care/microsurgery to be effectively active. Sure you have that adrenal gland, because that was passed down, but you didn't end up with the lymphatic system to support it. Most of your childhood and adolescents were spent correcting the issue. Probably not supported in anyway by rules or fluff, but it makes sense to me

I don't see the gene work they would be capable of being that sloppy.

in regards to corrective surgery on children, I assume that, like their neurology, a child's aura and essence are unformed and only start to solidify as they age. Neural damage in infancy and early childhood can be self-corrected to a greater degree, but it stops being possible later in life.

Which confuses me in light of your first statement in this post.

[Walpurgisborn]

I don't see the gene work they would be capable of being that sloppy.

except you'r not dealing with one germ line, you're dealing with two. Sure, you have your daddy's adrenal gland, but you got your mothers lymp nodes.

Which confuses me in light of your first statement in this post.

Adolescence != early childhood.

[Cabral]

The genetic code has a mana shadow that affects the final metagenetic expression. At this time (2070), we are newly aware of that man shadow (or at least 4th edition is the first I remember identifing "mana genes"). We have not been able to "view" them, let alone decode them or manipulate them.

As such, when you inherit genetic manipulations from your parents, it is vastly different than natural genetic mutation. The mutation will extend naturally onto the mana shadow. That is not to say that Essence won't be affected - critters vary in Essence - just that the mutation will affect the mana shadow's ideal template.

To argue that inherited genetic manipulation should not cost Essence is akin to arguing that a human with Muscle Aug 1 should not lose Essence until he exceeds normal maximums, but HOW you get there is as important, if not more important.

[MikeKozar]

Meaning 'what' exactly? How does magic know the difference 2 generations down the line between an engineered gene, and a natural one? More importantly if genetic engineering causes essence loss, how do 'transgenic art' organisms, or any of the other ton of engineered creatures even exist?

I'm not sure if the issue is that you understand the Essence system and don't like it, or if you are confused by it. Just in case it is the second one, I'm going to take one last shot at explaining it.

Shadowrun is set in a world of magic. No matter what your real-world religious beliefs, it is incontrovertibly proven in this game world that every living thing has an astral presence, a "soul". If this astral presence is removed, for instance if a projecting mage is trapped or killed, the body will not survive.

When you change your physical body to something other then your natural astral presence, you lose the cohesion between the two. If your arm is amputated, it still exists; it is still a part of your body, magically speaking. If you replace it with cyberware, you have changed your physical identity - you are not a man missing an arm, you are a man with a cyberarm, and cyberarms do not have a magical presence. As your physical identity diverges from your magical identity, you lose Essence.

This all comes back to the idea of Cartesian Dualism - that the identity, mind, or self is a distinct entity that is not inherently connected to the body. If you lose an arm, does it make a difference to who you are? Dualists say no. This is contested by advocates of holistic medicine, who assert that making massive changes to the body will indeed make changes to the self. There is a debate about where the line between body and self is, if it even exists - you think nothing of clipping hair or toenails, and we assume that tonsils or an appendix can be removed, but what about things like adrenaline or testosterone? There are parts of the body that certainly change the way the mind operates.

So how is Dualism/Holism connected to Essence? Shadowrun has embraced the holistic view of the body as a part of the self; no matter what change you make to the body, you are changing your self. We also accept that the self is tied to an astral presence which is needed for survival. As the self gets further away from that astral presence, that connection is stretched thin, and eventually snaps. Just as a mage who dies in Astral leaves his body to die, a Cyborg whose body can no longer support an astral presence will die.

[Mordinvan]

It's a mechanical rule with a little fluff spraypainted on. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Surprise! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Your whole argument is based on the Genetic Heritage quality?

The genetic heritage quality is actually the linch pin of where the essence explanation falls apart yes.

[Mordinvan]

except you'r not dealing with one germ line, you're dealing with two. Sure, you have your daddy's adrenal gland, but you got your mothers lymp nodes.

And? Lets say muscles are augmented via an induced myostatin mutation. That Mutation already exists in the human population, and is a 'natural' albeit very rare variation in the human species. Why would it cost me essence to have something I inherited which is already in some places a natural part of the species.

[Mordinvan]

As such, when you inherit genetic manipulations from your parents, it is vastly different than natural genetic mutation. The mutation will extend naturally onto the mana shadow. That is not to say that Essence won't be affected - critters vary in Essence - just that the mutation will affect the mana shadow's ideal template.

Except I can point to a number of natural human mutations which mimic those offered by gene ware very closely which exist in the population, but do so in very low levels. The geneware used to create the same effects in humans would likely induce those mutations, and as such would be indistinguishable from the naturally occurring mutations.

To argue that inherited genetic manipulation should not cost Essence is akin to arguing that a human with Muscle Aug 1 should not lose Essence until he exceeds normal maximums, but HOW you get there is as important, if not more important.

Muscle augmentation has an analogous naturally occurring mutation in the human population. Inducing this mutation via virus would result in children who are completely identical to those who received the gene natrually.

[Yerameyahu]

Indistinguishable how? By DNA testing? Or by the mystic powers of the Universe that aren't really understood? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Mordinvan]

Granting improvements to the organism outside of that range incur harm to Essence. Your Pattern has started to deviate from the Pattern the Universe expects for your type of organism.

So at what point did having organelles cease costing bacteria essence and allowed them to become eukaryotes? At which point did being a single cellular colonial organism cease costing essence and allow a single multicellular organism to exist? At which point did monoculture multicelular organisms get to start to having differentiated cell types without it costing them essence to allow for the creation of tissue types and organs? ect... Each of these steps are fairly significant changes, and unless the universe is intelligent and predictive, it wouldn't have seen them coming, to 'adapt' the template to allow for it.

[Yerameyahu]

Are you saying it's not?