Latent Technomancer, Is this viable? Options

[Witch]

I've recently started setting up a group for my very first Shadowrun game and have been reading up a bit more about the game on the fora. I'm planning to jumpstart my players with a slightly modified 'On the Run', followed by some more heavily modified versions of a number of older Missions and, eventually, Emergence. However, I'm afraid that getting acquainted with all the various worlds players interact with at the same time will be rather difficult for me as a GM. Due to a number of posts on this forum describing the problems with Technomancers, I decided that I'd ban Technomancers from my game at the start, in order to familiarize the entire group with the rest of the game first. However, one of my players seems rather invested in playing one, and I offered her to take the Latent Technomancer quality from Unwired.

What I wonder is, is it viable to start out as a Hacker and subsequently to become a Technomancer? The player isn't really a min-maxer, but I'd like her to be at least somewhat effective at what she does.

[Combat Mage]

Now I don't really play Hackers/Technomancers but from what I gathered Technomancers need a LOT of ressource dedication to make them work (as much as magicians or even more). So your player would probably need hundreds of Karma points to become a capable Technomancer.
If she starts as a hacker she would probably never arrive at a point where her technomancer ability would exceed her hacking skills, unless you play for a long time or give out a lot of karma. In addition she would spend all her karma to learn things she already can do in a different way.

Also as a hacker she probalby has cyber-/bioware implanted which doesn't exactly help becoming a good Technomancer.

[Gamer6432]

Technomancers are a really cool concept, but (IMO) poorly executed in 4th edition. If your player really wants to play a TM, you could put forth this option: Have them build two characters. One with the Borrowed Time quality, but rather than rolling that 3d6 for lifespan, hold off until you feel your party is ready to handle TMs in the group. Then once that character goes boom (or however you decide the plug gets pulled), bring in the TM character.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Due to a number of posts on this forum describing the problems with Technomancers, I decided that I'd ban Technomancers from my game at the start, in order to familiarize the entire group with the rest of the game first.

The most common problem with TMs is that they are hyperspecialists and karma-sinks.

However, one of my players seems rather invested in playing one, and I offered her to take the Latent Technomancer quality from Unwired.

That's pretty much the same thing as not allowing it, as it will take ages before this character can do anything at all at his supposed specialty.

[Catadmin]

And remember that usually latent TMs will need training from a full fledged TM once they emerge. Very rare are the self-taught TMs that don't go insane and get themselves killed once emergence hits. So if you give this player the latent quality, then you'd want to keep your NPC TM around to train the player or give the player some options for training if this isn't meant to be a "I'm letting you believe you can be a TM" type of concession.

[Tech_Rat]

Personally, I don't see the hubbub about banning TMs. Think of it this way: If you skip on parallel parking day in driver's ed every time it comes by, are you really ever going to try and figure out how to parallel park? Or will you just circle the block until an easy parking spot opens up? Let your player try the TM. But make sure they take a couple of other skills useful in other things: Gun combat/melee combat? Some minor driving skills. Maybe one persuasive bastard? I went in to my first game as a player, balls to the wall, with two phys-ads, a full vr rigger, and my Technomancer. Let your player be a TM, but maybe restrict the extras from unwired for a bit. The basic stuff in the BBB is just fine. Although I would recommend two character sheets: One for the meat, and one for the Living Persona. That way it'd be a bit easier to have all of the TM stuff at a glance, and all the meat stuff at a glance.

--Adrian Korvedzk, Supporter of Technomancers everywhere.

[Saint Sithney]

Latent technomancer: At some point, your mundane character with absolutely no cyberware may get one Resonance and maybe a CF which they could then thread up to level 2! 200 karma later your budding technomancer might be half as good as a technomancer made at chargen!

[Udoshi]

What I wonder is, is it viable to start out as a Hacker and subsequently to become a Technomancer? The player isn't really a min-maxer, but I'd like her to be at least somewhat effective at what she does.

If you -want- your player to evolve from being a hacker to a technomancer, you're going to need to work directly with the player, and institute some houserules.

For example - letting the character keep their skills, and use them with resonance CFs. (there is some bullshit clause that makes you learn it twice, if tm's wante to retro-hack.)
Handwaving training times - the rules for learning a -new- thing lets you only learn one between missions. There are twenty two(or more, including reality amplifiers and sensor softs) programs, and thus complex forms to choose from. Great. You need at least 6 to hack. (analyze, stealth, exploit, decrypt, scan)
You should let the player choose their own stream - guide them towards several, but let them choose. In fact, you should probably let the new TM make a custom stream - don't fuck them by making fading tests use their lowest mental stat. That just promotes player animosity.
Consider introducing a Paragon or sensei/mentor, which can help them with their abilities.
Keep in mind it costs Rating times 5 karma to raise an attribute. (rx3) in 4th. a new CF costs 2 to start, and plain rating to increase. They're also, probably, going to have ware from being a hacker, which nerfs their resonance.


If you want this to -work- and be cool, and not be a crappy 'why bother being a tm, my programs at 6 are better' suckfest - you're going to need to keep an eye on the karma. If you're using 4A costs, use the 4A rewards table, which is 1/3-2/3's more, for one. Unfortunately, that might make the rest of the party a bit unbalanced. Instead, you should consider using Resonance-based Sidequests - they're an opportunity to drop plothooks, and rope the players into events due to odd things that happen on the matrix. Look up the Great Hack ordeal in unwired - consider stuff that could be used for. Instead of handing out 20% off the next submersion, hand out direct Resonance rewards. Resonance 2, a handful of common use CF's at 1. You know, things they will need to actually be a technomancer. Have their paragon or another TM show them the ropes, introduce things. How to thread, summon sprites - unlock their capabilities gradually. I'm not saying 'hand out free shit until they have resonance 5 and all cf's at 5,' rather.... give them a jump start, with opportunities to earn benefits(and make Moral Choices), and cut it off around 2/3. Basically, don't leave them hanging at 'congrats. You've emerged. You now need over a hundred karma to pretend to be useful'. Just help them out a little - without handing out gobs of karma to them, or the entire team, because that's just a ticket for disaster.

Also, emphasize the cool shit a TM can do - make it something that helps. Whether its tracking a badguys's resonance signature(like astral signatures, except on the internet), or thread up sensor softs or tacnets on the fly, or even the cool shit available in the resonance realms - like the huge library of deleted crap. If the player -wants- to play a tm with latent emerging, give them a hand, just enough to get their throat wet and not suck - and make them work for the rest. Heck, its a good opportunity to introduce some custom echos - there's a few good ones over here. Heck, even break out the Resonance Gateway rules in unwired, and send the entire team on a crazy resonance quest. (You know how sometimes players find ways to tag along on mages astral quests? whether through drugs, or a spirits astral gateway? Its like that.)

What I'm trying to say is - there's a lot of good potential here. Maintaining balance is, as always, up to the GM. A lot of people on these forums here have a hate-on for TMs, and I've seen them mess the basics up more than once. Don't treat them like hackers on steroids - treat them like magicians. They get astral quests, have to deal with and negotiate with spirits. Like mages, when you start to be able to do stuff above force 6 on a regular basis, then you're starting to look at a balance problem.

[Dumori]

For example - letting the character keep their skills, and use them with resonance CFs. (there is some bullshit clause that makes you learn it twice, if tm's wante to retro-hack.)

That's not true. The clause is that TMs and hackers use the matrix difrently and thus there skills aren't cross trainable. A TM will learn form TMs and hacker can't from a TM. If you emerge they you don't have to re-learn ffs you don't have to re-learn to use programs you use use them in an odd way.

All it really means is that its harder for TMs to train (and only a bit) as only TMs can teach TMs.

[Witch]

Thanks for the advice, everyone. I'll talk to my player and see what she wants to do.

[sabs]

Or just let her be a technomancer.

Sure, they're more mondo than a Hacker.. but the actual rules are basically the same. The reason to band technos, is so that other people don't feel shat upon for their hacker character.

[Tech_Rat]

@sabs: There's no reason to ban TMs. It's just like saying you should ban adepts who focus all their power points into armor and firearms, because they might make better sams than your average chromehound sam.

[sabs]

There are many reasons to ban TM's (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
they're horribly broken compared to Hackers. And a Matrix that is a challenge to a TM will kill a hacker character dead.

[Gamer6432]

I think you're missing the idea of disallowing TMs. It's not because they're broken or they suck, it's because they're kinda complicated for new players. All he's trying to do is save some time by introducing the simpler character rolls before opening the can of worms that is Technomancer rules.

[sabs]

They're not that significicantly more complicated than hackers in general.
Arguably they're less complicated, because they can conjure up software out of nothing, where as if you forgot to buy X software during chargen, you're shit out of luck until you get enough money to buy it in game.

[Witch]

Based on all the advice offered here, I told my player that Latent Technomancer probably wouldn't be a wise choice. I relented on the banning of Technomancers, but she caught my reluctance at allowing them and decided to go for a hacker after all. End's well, all's well. She did promise me there'd be a Technomancer sometime in the future, though.