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Req
post Feb 26 2004, 07:12 PM
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xm-8 r teh winnar.

I like the little Shadowrun touches they mention at the end of the article - adding a numeric ammo counter to the field of vision of the sight, so you won't have to look away from the target to check magazine status, and an electronic monitor system so's you can check rounds fired over the weapon's lifetime by waving a reader over it...


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Solstice
post Feb 26 2004, 08:46 PM
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Seems like that rifle was the basis for the HALO assualt rifle. Almost exactly the same.
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TheOneRonin
post Feb 26 2004, 08:52 PM
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Here's some pics for those of you who haven't seen the XM8 yet.

http://hkpro.websolv.com/ubbthreads/showfl...sb=5&o=&fpart=1

It's basically a clone of the G36 dressed up in a Buck Rogers frame. For me, the jury is out until I get to shoot one.
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TheOneRonin
post Feb 26 2004, 08:57 PM
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QUOTE (Solstice)
Seems like that rifle was the basis for the HALO assualt rifle. Almost exactly the same.

Not exactly. This is the Rifle that inspired the Halo Assault Rifle:

http://matrix.dumpshock.com/raygun/firearm...ult/fn2000.html

And while the Rifle in the HALO 2 trailers looks a bit like the XM8 (debateable), the Halo one is a Bullpup and the XM8 is not.
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Siege
post Feb 26 2004, 08:57 PM
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Check out the HK handgun sized SMG.

MP7A1

-Siege
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TheOneRonin
post Feb 26 2004, 09:05 PM
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QUOTE (Siege)
Check out the HK handgun sized SMG.

MP7A1

-Siege

The MP7 certainly has that "coolness" factor, but I'm pretty suspicious about how effective the ammunition is. You probably would need to burn through at least half a 20 round magazine to down a determined opponent. Sure, it will make neat little holes in soft body armor, but it will probably make neat little holes in flesh as well. Not much hydrostatic shock and a very small wound cavity. I would take a UMP chambered in .45 any day over an MP7.
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Siege
post Feb 26 2004, 09:29 PM
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I can't say yea or nay, but the blurb mentions penetration ability versus Russian body armor.

I would be interested in watching how the weapon performs, although I'm still a fan of the .45.

-Siege
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Austere Emancipa...
post Feb 26 2004, 10:40 PM
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It's going to make a wound that looks pretty much like this, except slightly smaller in diameter (4.6mm vs 5.56mm), larger temporary cavity, and probably tumbles a bit sooner (slightly more rear-heavy bullet). This is certainly better against flesh, and this maybe even better.

It would be great to see statistics on where (which body parts) soldiers get bullet wounds to. It's possible that limb wounds from .45s might be better at incapacitating the target than torso hits from the 4.6x30. On the other hand, the .45ACP (except maybe the odd armor piercing round, if there are such things) will not penetrate any body armor in use by any armed forces that I'm aware of, so you'd have to actively avoid shooting people center-mass.

The desert-colored XM8s look like toys. It ain't a gun if it ain't matte black!

I wonder how the mag ammo counter and the lifetime shot counter would work. Probably the ammo counter would just count the rounds fired between mag changes and assume mags of 30. Same issue with Shadowrun: With most weapons, the Smartlink ammo counter should usually just be showing # of rounds fired, because magazines can vary in size, be down-loaded, etc. Or maybe they've got Smartmags, which tell the gun how many rounds there's inside. And Smartbelts!
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Cray74
post Feb 26 2004, 11:18 PM
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QUOTE
1. It’s light. The baseline carbine model currently weighs in at 6.25 pounds (the objective weight is 5.7 pounds), including an integrated sight with infrared laser and illuminator, red dot reflex sight and integrated mount. By comparison, an M4 modular weapon system with rail attachment, backup sights, M68 Close Combat Optic and standard laser/illuminator systems tips the scales at 8.85 pounds.

Gee, I know my SR PCs have a lot of pistols heavier than the XM8, and some get close to the M4...
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Austere Emancipa...
post Feb 26 2004, 11:53 PM
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May the Powers That Be have mercy on my soul, for I am about to Dabble with the Occult, ie Use the CC Firearm Design System.

Assault Rifle
Barrel Reduction (+8DP, -.25kg)
Ceramic Components-1 (+20DP, -0.1kg)
Weight Decrease-8 (+40DP, -2kg)
Laser Sight, High-Powered, Top (+280DP, +.25kg)

The weapon now weighs 3.9kg, 1.3kg over the target weight. This is the lightest an Assault Rifle can be, using the creation system, if it has a Laser Sight. Funny, that.
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Raygun
post Feb 27 2004, 12:42 AM
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The XM8 is definitely an improvement over the M16/M4 platform (so is the HKM4 for that matter), but it will be a lot cooler if they decide to go with a new cartridge that's worth a crap past 150 meters, like the 6.8x43mm SPC (which the rifle is designed to accomodate). Not very likely, but we can hope.

QUOTE (TheOneRonin)
The MP7 certainly has that "coolness" factor, but I'm pretty suspicious about how effective the ammunition is. You probably would need to burn through at least half a 20 round magazine to down a determined opponent.

Considering the role that PDWs are designed for, that's just about exactly what you're supposed to do. Spray and pray. Considering the almost non-existent recoil, it's not much of a problem to dump five rounds into someone at 7-10 meters. The round will make short work of most body armor, and five relatively close-together wound cavities are going to be a mess to clean up.

Not that I'm advocating the PDW concept, but it sounds better when you think about it in context of the environment it's designed to be used in. I'd still rather use a suppressed compact assault rifle myself, get the penetration AND a better wound cavity per shot. Hell, a 7.62x39mm AP load (Barnaul 7N23) would just about RULE in that kind of situation (the aforementioned 6.8x43mm is right up there, too), but since the 7.62x39mm is old (and Russian) it doesn't get a lot of credit. The perils of a free market economy: Old stuff must suck because it's old.

QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
I wonder how the mag ammo counter and the lifetime shot counter would work. Probably the ammo counter would just count the rounds fired between mag changes and assume mags of 30. Same issue with Shadowrun: With most weapons, the Smartlink ammo counter should usually just be showing # of rounds fired, because magazines can vary in size, be down-loaded, etc. Or maybe they've got Smartmags, which tell the gun how many rounds there's inside. And Smartbelts!

Not too far off, there. I can see a piezoelectric spring tension gauge being viable, or perhaps a sensor along the inside length of the magazine body that measures the position of the follower within the body. Something like that, maybe, with a connection point to the weapon where the magazine lock connects (or perhaps another connection entirely, like a camera flash). From there it's just a matter of getting the signal from the electronics to the sight, and if they're talking about using wireless technology already, that's really not tough at all. The dependence on electricity kind of sucks, but I think it's just something we're all going to have to get used to. Doesn't seem to be any stopping it.
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Arethusa
post Feb 27 2004, 05:00 AM
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I heard rumors about the XM8 being tested for 6.8 SPC and one of the benefits of the XM8 system being that it was relatively easy to refit for different calibers. Is there any substance to that?

Also, wouldn't 5.7x28mm be better for comparison to 4.6x30mm?
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Voran
post Feb 27 2004, 05:41 AM
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Not sure this was the gun I saw on "Modern Marvels" on the history channel last night, but it seemed the same. Course, that one also had 20 mm HE airburst/rangefinder ammo too. :P

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Arethusa
post Feb 27 2004, 06:50 AM
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The gun you're thinking of is the OICW, which has, of late, been designated XM29. The XM29 is a two part system incorporating a 20mm, electronically controlled, bullpup configured, six round box fed grenade launcher and an extremely short barreled carbine 'kineteic energy' system, which is basically just a really small G36. The entire thing was designed to replace the M16/M203 package and give grenadiers a dedicated weapon for fire support.

Incidentally, the XM29's KE system is what the XM8 was based on, which was in turn based on the G36.
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Voran
post Feb 27 2004, 07:22 AM
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Even though its not a real gun, I'm always going to be partial to the M41A pulse rifle from Aliens. Wierd how that seemed so hightechy and impossible to me at the time of the movie, but with today's technology advancements, scifi guns aren't that far away.

Heck, also in that Modern Marvels program, along with the Metalstorm gun system, they had a pistol that struck me as very Judge Dredd like with multiple caliber/use rounds.
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Siege
post Feb 27 2004, 07:44 AM
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Interesting trivia -- the Aliens Pulse rifle was a Thompson SMG frame with some bits grafted on.

-Siege
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BitBasher
post Feb 27 2004, 07:51 AM
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and in my opinion one of the most asthetically pleaseing assault rifles ive ever seen.
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Siege
post Feb 27 2004, 07:52 AM
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QUOTE (BitBasher)
and in my opinion one of the most asthetically pleaseing assault rifles ive ever seen.

It did have a certain style, didn't it? Dunno why...

Deflowering the Alien Pulse Rifle

-Siege
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Darkest Angel
post Feb 27 2004, 09:24 AM
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QUOTE (Raygun)
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
I wonder how the mag ammo counter and the lifetime shot counter would work. Probably the ammo counter would just count the rounds fired between mag changes and assume mags of 30. Same issue with Shadowrun: With most weapons, the Smartlink ammo counter should usually just be showing # of rounds fired, because magazines can vary in size, be down-loaded, etc. Or maybe they've got Smartmags, which tell the gun how many rounds there's inside. And Smartbelts!

Not too far off, there. I can see a piezoelectric spring tension gauge being viable, or perhaps a sensor along the inside length of the magazine body that measures the position of the follower within the body. Something like that, maybe, with a connection point to the weapon where the magazine lock connects (or perhaps another connection entirely, like a camera flash). From there it's just a matter of getting the signal from the electronics to the sight, and if they're talking about using wireless technology already, that's really not tough at all. The dependence on electricity kind of sucks, but I think it's just something we're all going to have to get used to. Doesn't seem to be any stopping it.

Technologically it might not be a problem, but clips = disposable, and can't see most governments being won over by expensive yet rather unnecessary tech - if most governments wont do it, then it wont catch on, what with NATO standards and all. At best it'll be a nice toy for special forces to play with, but given the dependancy on electronics it probably wont catch on with them either.
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Kagetenshi
post Feb 27 2004, 09:34 AM
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QUOTE (Siege)
QUOTE (BitBasher @ Feb 27 2004, 07:51 AM)
and in my opinion one of the most asthetically pleaseing assault rifles ive ever seen.

It did have a certain style, didn't it? Dunno why...

Deflowering the Alien Pulse Rifle

-Siege

Wow. Just... wow.

And on a side note, the Thompson gun was cool. We need an influx of Thompson-wielding Shadowrunners.

~J
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Arethusa
post Feb 27 2004, 10:02 AM
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Ooh. Ohh. And fedoras and long coats and 140 year old Buicks and drum mags and liquor and ooh it'd be great.
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Kagetenshi
post Feb 27 2004, 10:05 AM
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I need to get me a good fedora.

"Roland was a warrior from the land of the midnight sun..."

~J
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Siege
post Feb 27 2004, 10:05 AM
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Hey, I like the idea of a 9M SMG. :grinbig:

-Siege
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hobgoblin
post Feb 27 2004, 10:38 AM
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QUOTE (Darkest Angel)
QUOTE (Raygun @ Feb 27 2004, 01:42 AM)
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
I wonder how the mag ammo counter and the lifetime shot counter would work. Probably the ammo counter would just count the rounds fired between mag changes and assume mags of 30. Same issue with Shadowrun: With most weapons, the Smartlink ammo counter should usually just be showing # of rounds fired, because magazines can vary in size, be down-loaded, etc. Or maybe they've got Smartmags, which tell the gun how many rounds there's inside. And Smartbelts!

Not too far off, there. I can see a piezoelectric spring tension gauge being viable, or perhaps a sensor along the inside length of the magazine body that measures the position of the follower within the body. Something like that, maybe, with a connection point to the weapon where the magazine lock connects (or perhaps another connection entirely, like a camera flash). From there it's just a matter of getting the signal from the electronics to the sight, and if they're talking about using wireless technology already, that's really not tough at all. The dependence on electricity kind of sucks, but I think it's just something we're all going to have to get used to. Doesn't seem to be any stopping it.

Technologically it might not be a problem, but clips = disposable, and can't see most governments being won over by expensive yet rather unnecessary tech - if most governments wont do it, then it wont catch on, what with NATO standards and all. At best it'll be a nice toy for special forces to play with, but given the dependancy on electronics it probably wont catch on with them either.

well i dont realy see the problem. a small cheap meter connected to the spring that act mutch like the controller dial of a stereo and a small rdif tag that contains needed info like how big a jump there is from round to round and a max round number. all this is inert until you stuff the clip in a gun and then it will show how many rounds are left after reading the meter and rdif tag. both are available in high amounts and are cheap.

the real electronics can be embedded in the gun. just dont forget batterys to the display :)

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Darkest Angel
post Feb 27 2004, 10:57 AM
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All of which adds unnecessarily to weight, complexity, and cost. Now look at what a soldier wants in a weapon: reliability, simplicity, accuracy, and lightweight. What does the government whos paying for it want? Cheapness.

Electronics like this add to complexity, detract from reliability, make no difference to accuracy, and add weight and expense. The only thing it does add is cinematic coolness. Personally, I'd think they were more a hinderance than a help since they'd get soldiers out of the habit physically checking ammunition, so if the system did break they'd be screwed - as well as it adding an otherwise unnecessary destraction.

Look at it this way, how many times have you installed a new printer cartridge and it's not been registered because the contacts are dirty? The same thing would happen more often with a weapon cartridge outside in the mud. How many times has the counter on your gun at laserquest been defective? That's indoors in a controlled environment, one whack outside and you might as well not bother in the first place. How many times in laserquest do you check your ammo? If it's all the time, then it's destracting, if it's almost never, then why bother with the counter.
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