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> The definitive answer to Spirits and Stun Weapons, Really.
SkepticInc
post Jun 30 2010, 04:58 AM
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Immunity to Normal Weapons. An often contentious Power in relation to Spirits and what sort of weaponry can be used by normal, mundane people to keep them from ruling everything in combat. The one side of the argument goes along the lines of pointing out that in all of the fiction, it takes extreme force to wipe out a Spirit. The canonical example, Ares nuking an Insect Spirit hive in Chicago at the location of the old FAFSA offices, is held on high as definitive proof that you can't taze Spirits. If you could use a zapper to take down Insect Spirits, then the metaphor of Bug Zapper would extend to Chicago and some of the best of Shadowrun history would be null and void.

Being Skeptical, as it were, I feel that the matter should be investigated further, so let us begin by inspect the wording on Immunity to Normal Weapons (INWp).

Data for our discussion is provided by our dear friend $_imon, in the form of a $imon$ez [Knowsoft], with bolded text being that which the author finds to be the most important points. Italicized and bolded text is the text that is at the root of the discussion. [Text surrounded by brackets is a dicepool, and may be followed by (text in a set of parenthesis) that indicates an Extended Test.].
[ Spoiler ]

There is an additional sentence that is not printed in my copy of the book, which has been relayed to $_imon as saying "Additionally, this "Armor rating" is added to the [damage resistance test] as normal Armor."

"Well," a good Skeptic would say, "what, exactly is this so called 'normal armor'? I haven't seen it mentioned anywhere." A very good question, so let's take a look at the first entry in Shadowrun 4th edition to mention rules on armor:
[ Spoiler ]

This wording leads us to wonder which type of damage we should be looking at. The answer is in the entry for Impact Armor:
[ Spoiler ]

That's fairly clear. So we know that the Spirits' Impact Armor values are being used, and a Spirit's Impact Armor value is equal to twice it's Force rating. So now we are comparing apples to apples, so let's go back up to the first entry. Our next task is to decide how the "hardened" part of this "Armor rating" applies. Let's look:
[ Spoiler ]

There is a parenthetical entry here that is dead center to the argument for using electrical or energy weapons against Spirits. "(modified by Armor Penetration)" in reference to DV and Armor rating. The rest of the entry states that any attack not exceeding this Armor rating (Impact Armor in this case) bounces off with no possibility of damage. If the modified Armor rating is smaller than the weapons DV, then the Hardened Armor offers no particular advantage. Here are the entries on AP and DV and [Damage Resistance] tests
[ Spoiler ]

Note that Condition Monitor is not strongly typed, so it can have four values: Applies to all Condition Monitors, Applies to untyped Condition Monitors only, Applies to no Condition Monitors, and Applies to some Condition Monitors. Let's, for the sake of not having our brains bleed, assume that the middle two arguments do not apply. The other two, All or Some, are not determinable.

"That's nice Skeptic, but look at the Immunity entry! It states "if the Damage Value does not exceed the Armor, then the attack automatically does no damage." not "modified Armor value"!". Then I take a deep breath and let it out. To apply proper Skepticism, we need to show that Spirits are treated under the same rules of Armor, AP, DV, and Condition Monitors.

Let's start by looking at what INWp is. It's a Critter Power, written up under the rules in the Critter section of the rulebook.
[ Spoiler ]

Ok, so Powers are attached to Critters, but this is about Spirits. Well, yes, and spirits are listed under Critters, so we use those rules. But what if we don't? They have their own rules, right?
[ Spoiler ]

But that's not the same as Critter combat, right?
[ Spoiler ]

All combat rules apply equally for critters, characters, and as we have shown, Spirits. "But!" our Straw Man would interject "It references Armor with a capital 'A'! I know you changed all entries about armor into Armor for consistency sake, but this one started out that way! It refers to the Power of Armor, not normal armor!"

Well:
[ Spoiler ]

The Armor Power, it seems, is treated the same way as normal armor. "But," our Straw Man continues "it's magical armor, so we should treat it under those rules!" So we bring up the closest approximation with Mystic Armor.
[ Spoiler ]

This doesn't help the argument, as in this case hardening Mystic Armor invokes the Hardened Armor Power. But it may not apply, as you may notice that running through the rules is the concept of Physical. Physical Spirits have the power of INWp, Armor is a Physical Power, everything related is Physical.

By now, if we can agree that the weapons attacking the Spirit are working on the Physical plane, we know that the AP applies. To be in combat, the Spirit must be in the Physical plane, so here we have the introductory line on Spirits:
[ Spoiler ]

Which takes us to Materializing:
[ Spoiler ]

So the Immunity to Normal Weapons only applies to the Spirit when Manifesting, during which all normal combat rules apply, which includes AP.

"That Condition Monitor thing! They never have been said to have a Stun Condition Monitor! No zappy!" Shouts our die-hard Straw Man. Skeptical me cannot find anything in the Basic book disproving this statement, so it could be argued that they do not have a Stun Monitor, and cannot be affected by stun weaponry. This leaves laser weapons as the smallest category of weapon that manages to hurt a decently strong Spirit. For those playing with Street Magic, then this should suffice:
[ Spoiler ]

Which is clear. Spirits have a Stun Monitor, are treated like any other entity in combat, and can be disrupted by a sufficiently strong Stun weapon. The end result? The effects on past literature concerning Chicago? TO THE COMMENTS!
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Lanlaorn
post Jun 30 2010, 05:11 AM
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I'll post the same question here that I did in the other thread:

So by your logic a sonic rifle (which has complete armor penetration) would ignore ITNW?
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SkepticInc
post Jun 30 2010, 05:18 AM
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QUOTE (Lanlaorn @ Jun 30 2010, 06:11 AM) *
So by your logic a sonic rifle (which has complete armor penetration) would ignore ITNW?


"your logic" implies I did something other than just follow the logic in the problem statement. If I am found to be incorrect, the entry will be corrected, making the title of the thread a Tautology.
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Lanlaorn
post Jun 30 2010, 05:25 AM
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You're chaining together loosely related sentences to arrive at the answer you desire, even if you were the correct the process looks something like this to me:

[ Spoiler ]


Now please answer my question. If tasers, lasers and flamethrowers are -half ITNW then you also believe that sonic rifles completely bypass ITNW, correct? Do the spirits also suffer from nausea? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Edit: Bah humbug, the board doesn't like .png files I suppose? Follow the link if you care.
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LFG
post Jun 30 2010, 05:26 AM
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I'm curious why rules for 'attack of will' would have been added if this were indeed the case?
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SkepticInc
post Jun 30 2010, 05:32 AM
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QUOTE (Lanlaorn @ Jun 30 2010, 06:25 AM) *
You're chaining together loosely related sentences to arrive at the answer you desire, even if you were the correct the process looks something like this to me:

[ Spoiler ]


Now please answer my question. If tasers, lasers and flamethrowers are -half ITNW then you also believe that sonic rifles completely bypass ITNW, correct? Do the spirits also suffer from nausea? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Edit: Bah humbug, the board doesn't like .png files I suppose? Follow the link if you care.


Yes, and yes. I understand that the process isn't smooth, but I did not come to the answer that I wanted, nor did I work backwards. In fact, I didn't know about the last quote until I was trying to figure out where, exactly, my argument got me.

QUOTE (LFG @ Jun 30 2010, 06:26 AM) *
I'm curious why rules for 'attack of will' would have been added if this were indeed the case?


I do not make guesses about what the designers are doing. The designers may have a different answer than I do, I'm just attempting to show where the logical path ends up. Designers get to fiat; I don't have that luxury.
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LFG
post Jun 30 2010, 05:51 AM
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QUOTE (SkepticInc @ Jun 30 2010, 12:32 AM) *
I do not make guesses about what the designers are doing. The designers may have a different answer than I do, I'm just attempting to show where the logical path ends up. Designers get to fiat; I don't have that luxury.


So do you make use of attacks of will or see it as an unnecessary option?
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SkepticInc
post Jun 30 2010, 05:54 AM
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QUOTE (LFG @ Jun 30 2010, 06:51 AM) *
So do you make use of attacks of will or see it as an unnecessary option?


I can't say. I haven't looked into attacks of will at all.
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Ol' Scratch
post Jun 30 2010, 06:06 AM
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Personally I'm a big fan of simply allowing specialty ammo. Basically, the rules for Silver Rounds (from Arsenal), but made from refined enchanting materials. "Magic bullets" that are subpar to normal rounds due to their weaker construction, but which get past Immunity to Normal Weapons. Pay a hefty sum, get a minor perk against tougher spirits (but lose out against weaker ones where Ex-Ex or APDS would do a better job).

But then, I like things simple.
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Aarakin
post Jun 30 2010, 06:59 AM
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On the topic of the Chicago nuke blast and the bug spirits...

My interpretation is that the nuke would have pulverized any flesh form and manifested true form spirits at the site.

But... (you knew it was coming right?)

The the physical blast itself would have no effect on any true form spirits that were hanging around in the astral. However, the background count formed as a result of the blast will have a significant effect on the astral which will then have a flow on effect on the surviving spirits (as you can read about in Street Magic, p 122: The Cermak Blast Zone).
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BlueMax
post Jun 30 2010, 07:11 AM
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QUOTE (Aarakin @ Jun 29 2010, 11:59 PM) *
On the topic of the Chicago nuke blast and the bug spirits...

My interpretation is that the nuke would have pulverized any flesh form and manifested true form spirits at the site.

But... (you knew it was coming right?)

The the physical blast itself would have no effect on any true form spirits that were hanging around in the astral. However, the background count formed as a result of the blast will have a significant effect on the astral which will then have a flow on effect on the surviving spirits (as you can read about in Street Magic, p 122: The Cermak Blast Zone).



As a note, Magic and the Nu K U LAR have always had a special relationship in Shadowrun. Originally it wasn't clearcut. I am sure someone made a well thought out example to remove all the mystery and adventure somewhere.

BlueMax
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IKerensky
post Jun 30 2010, 07:16 AM
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Too bad you use failed logic since the start. Why did you decide it is Impact armor ?

The rules you quote speak about "see Hardened Armor above" and Hardened Armor is said to be: "Otherwise, Hardened Armor provides both Ballistic and Impact armor equal to its rating."

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IKerensky
post Jun 30 2010, 07:21 AM
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Anyway I fail to understand the initial problematic. It seems evident to me that Spirit are vulnerable to Stun weapon. I see no need for the lenghty demonstration.

What is more interesting is what happen to Spirit that drop unconscious ? I am fairly certain they de-materialize back to their astral body.
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Shinobi Killfist
post Jun 30 2010, 07:52 AM
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QUOTE (Aarakin @ Jun 30 2010, 01:59 AM) *
On the topic of the Chicago nuke blast and the bug spirits...

My interpretation is that the nuke would have pulverized any flesh form and manifested true form spirits at the site.

But... (you knew it was coming right?)

The the physical blast itself would have no effect on any true form spirits that were hanging around in the astral. However, the background count formed as a result of the blast will have a significant effect on the astral which will then have a flow on effect on the surviving spirits (as you can read about in Street Magic, p 122: The Cermak Blast Zone).



I don't really care about chicago for the purposes of what effects spirits now. SR4 changed a ton of things about how the world works, how the setting feels, and definitely how magic and spirits work. From 2e to 3e D&D there is no explanation why magic works differently than it used to in the Forgotten Realms. In fact one the there last and coolest(IMO) stories in the FR at the end of 2e is not possible under 3e rules on magic. Though they did explain the changes in magic in the transition from 3.5 to 4e. Basic thing is sometimes the rules change and past events would no longer be possible, just accept its a game and move on.
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Mäx
post Jun 30 2010, 08:44 AM
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QUOTE (IKerensky @ Jun 30 2010, 10:16 AM) *
Too bad you use failed logic since the start. Why did you decide it is Impact armor ?

Becouase all those attack in question are defended agains with impact armor, so ballistic doesn't matter.
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KCKitsune
post Jun 30 2010, 09:13 AM
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QUOTE (Shinobi Killfist @ Jun 30 2010, 03:52 AM) *
From 2e to 3e D&D there is no explanation why magic works differently than it used to in the Forgotten Realms.

One of the things that REALLY pissed me off about FR transition from 1ed to 2ed was Psionics. I mean honestly they could have just said "We don't believe that Psionics should be a part of the Forgotten Realms canon*", but no they went with a bullshit explanation of saying that when Mystra died she took Psionics with her. Not Magic (which she was the goddess of), but Psionics. Does that make ANY sense?

Now back on topic... SkepticInc, your argument is well thought out and I wish that a Developer would come in and say "Yes, this is the explanation of ITNW that we were looking for!", or "Sorry SkepticInc, while your thoughts are well organized, they do not fit our vision of Shadowrun."
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SkepticInc
post Jun 30 2010, 02:13 PM
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QUOTE (IKerensky @ Jun 30 2010, 08:16 AM) *
Too bad you use failed logic since the start. Why did you decide it is Impact armor ?

The rules you quote speak about "see Hardened Armor above" and Hardened Armor is said to be: "Otherwise, Hardened Armor provides both Ballistic and Impact armor equal to its rating."


I believe someone beat me to pointing out that Impact armor is the relevant stat because you use Impact armor to defend against lasers and electrical discharge weaponry.

QUOTE (IKerensky @ Jun 30 2010, 08:21 AM) *
Anyway I fail to understand the initial problematic. It seems evident to me that Spirit are vulnerable to Stun weapon. I see no need for the lenghty demonstration.

What is more interesting is what happen to Spirit that drop unconscious ? I am fairly certain they de-materialize back to their astral body.


It may seem obvious to you, but it is a topic of great and recurring debate.

Spirits do not drop unconscious, they are disrupted.

QUOTE (KCKitsune @ Jun 30 2010, 10:13 AM) *
Now back on topic... SkepticInc, your argument is well thought out and I wish that a Developer would come in and say "Yes, this is the explanation of ITNW that we were looking for!", or "Sorry SkepticInc, while your thoughts are well organized, they do not fit our vision of Shadowrun."


Thank you for the compliment.

A developer doesn't need to come in and decide, as this exercise is not meant to decide how things should be in the Shadowrun universe. The point of the exercise is to bring all of the relevant pieces of information together and show where the usual train of though goes. Gamemasters always have the final say, so this is merely a tool for them to work with, not a usurpation of their game rules.
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Mäx
post Jun 30 2010, 02:16 PM
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QUOTE (SkepticInc @ Jun 30 2010, 05:13 PM) *
I believe someone beat me to pointing out that Impact armor is the relevant stat because you use Impact armor to defend against lasers and electrical discharge weaponry.

As well as flamers and acid willed capsule rounds.
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Doc Chase
post Jun 30 2010, 02:22 PM
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QUOTE (BlueMax @ Jun 30 2010, 07:11 AM) *
As a note, Magic and the Nu K U LAR have always had a special relationship in Shadowrun. Originally it wasn't clearcut. I am sure someone made a well thought out example to remove all the mystery and adventure somewhere.

BlueMax



I heard somewhere that nookular weponz hit both physical and astral space. Now I'll have to go see where I read that.
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IKerensky
post Jun 30 2010, 02:24 PM
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What I mean is : Hardened Armor is both Impact and Ballistic as pointed out, that is written into the hardened armor reference.

I didn't see the need for all the demonstration of the first 3 paragraphe to determine if it is ballistic or impact.
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Doc Chase
post Jun 30 2010, 02:26 PM
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QUOTE (IKerensky @ Jun 30 2010, 02:24 PM) *
What I mean is : Hardened Armor is both Impact and Ballistic as pointed out, that is written into the hardened armor reference.

I didn't see the need for all the demonstration of the first 3 paragraphe to determine if it is ballistic or impact.


The need materializes when SkepticInc skips that step and an enterprising soul starts peppering the questions to leading to him making the demonstration after the fact.

Here we can follow the line of logic that was taken and either a: come to the same conclusion, or b: find a flaw in the logic and point it out.

Or, as this is Dumpshock, the forums, and the Internet in general c: lambast the logic process.
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SkepticInc
post Jun 30 2010, 02:37 PM
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QUOTE (Doc Chase @ Jun 30 2010, 03:26 PM) *
The need materializes when SkepticInc skips that step and an enterprising soul starts peppering the questions to leading to him making the demonstration after the fact.

Here we can follow the line of logic that was taken and either a: come to the same conclusion, or b: find a flaw in the logic and point it out.

Or, as this is Dumpshock, the forums, and the Internet in general c: lambast the logic process.


I welcome the criticism. If arguments are found to be invalid, they can be edited to the correct argument.
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Doc Chase
post Jun 30 2010, 02:54 PM
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QUOTE (SkepticInc @ Jun 30 2010, 02:37 PM) *
I welcome the criticism. If arguments are found to be invalid, they can be edited to the correct argument.


I'm happy to see it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) I prefer the argument itself to be criticized, not the line of research that leads to it.

In regards to the sonic weapon - could it be considered 'normal'? I'm not sure it can. Could a sonic pulse disrupt even a spirit? If it's made of rock, a sonic wave could shatter it. It could disrupt an air or water spirit - could even possibly quench a fire spirit. I think that a sonic rifle or a laser weapon qualifies as 'special.'
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HugeC
post Jun 30 2010, 02:56 PM
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So, if I'm reading this right, spirits get their Force in hardened impact armor against tasers or S&S (would normally be twice their Magic==Force, but it gets halved due to the taser's Armor Penetration). If the modified DV is less than or equal to the spirit's Force, the taser deals no damage; otherwise it deals damage as normal.

Given this, I'd say S&S is the best ammo you can buy unless you are trying to blow up a vehicle. Works well on spirits, and most "tough" targets have much smaller stun tracks than physical. I guess I see why people hate it so, it's too good.
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Doc Chase
post Jun 30 2010, 03:01 PM
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QUOTE (HugeC @ Jun 30 2010, 02:56 PM) *
So, if I'm reading this right, spirits get their Force in hardened impact armor against tasers or S&S (would normally be twice their Magic==Force, but it gets halved due to the taser's Armor Penetration). If the modified DV is less than or equal to the spirit's Force, the taser deals no damage; otherwise it deals damage as normal.

Given this, I'd say S&S is the best ammo you can buy unless you are trying to blow up a vehicle. Works well on spirits, and most "tough" targets have much smaller stun tracks than physical. I guess I see why people hate it so, it's too good.


It was outlawed in one of the last campaigns I played in for that reason.
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