The definitive answer to Spirits and Stun Weapons, Really. Options

[SkepticInc]

The soinic rifle poses an odd issue it sates its not effected by Regular armor. This raised the question dose hardened/hardened like armor apply here? As far as I know its to only mundane sonic effect magic can produce them as well but they would bypass ITNW.

$imon$ez:
Arsenal p39
Ares Screech Sonic Beam Rifle: Another nonlethal weapon designed for riot control purposes, this rifle projects a beam of intense high-frequency sound that creates disorientation and nausea in metahuman targets.
The Screech sonic attack can be projected as a narrow, medium, or wide spread beam, using the same rules as shotguns (see p. 144, SR4) for determining the number of targets affected and the DV modifier. The Screech is resisted with Willpower instead of Body. Regular armor does not apply, but damper earware (p. 333, SR4) provides 2 dice for the resistance test. A Hush or Silence spell reduces the Screech’s DV by –1 per ht on the Spellcasting Test. Targets hit by a Screech beam suffer the effects of disorientation and nausea (see p. 245, SR4).
Screech attacks are powered by peak-discharge power packs (see p. 36). The Screech consumes 1 power point per shot. It uses shotgun ranges.
$imoff:

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Please use references, if you can.

The answer lies in whether or not use count Spirits as metahuman targets. I can find no reference that equates metahumans and Spirits, even under the Free Spirit character creation section of Runners Companion. So at this point, the rifle does squat.

Now we turn to the damage itself and see if it is something that can be applied to Spirits. The damage is sonic in nature, and there is an entry under Elemental Effects in the spell creation section of the Street Magic book that is sonic damage, and an Elemental Attack power for critters. Critter Powers are considered magical enough to get around Immunity to Normal Weapons.

$imon$ez:
Street Magic 165
Sound
Sound hits the target with a wave of unbelievably loud noise and gut-churning vibrations. Sound damage is treated as Stun damage. Armor has no effect, but sound dampers and spells like Silence and Hush add their rating/hits to the defender’s dice pool (effectively acting like sound armor). If the target suffers more damage boxes than his Willpower, he suffers the effects of nausea (p. 245, SR4) and is deafened for 10 minutes.
$imoff:

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$imon$ez:
SR4 p287
Elemental Attack
Type: P • Action: Complex • Range: LOS • Duration: Instant
A critter with Elemental Attack can release a projected blast of damaging or negative energy, be it flame, intense cold, electricity, water, and so on. The power is treated as a ranged attack (see Ranged Combat, p. 140) using the critter’s Agility + Exotic Ranged Weapon to attack. The attack’s DV equals the critter’s Magic, and is treated as Cold, Electricity, or Fire damage (see p. 155), as appropriate to the attack. Such attacks are resisted with half Impact armor. The type of elemental attack used by a spirit is appropriate to their element and chosen at the time of its summoning; once chosen, it cannot be changed.
$imoff:

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$imon$ez:
SR4 p288
Immunity to Normal Weapons: This immunity applies to all weapons that are not magical (weapon foci, spells, adept or critter powers). If the critter has the Allergy weakness, then the Immunity does not apply against non-magical attacks made using the allergen.
$imoff:

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Have I answered the question? No. The only way to do that would be to show that Critter Elemental Attacks, Sorcery Indirect Combat spell's Elemental Effects, and mundane sonic attacks are equivalent. I will not attempt that here, but someone else is welcome to.

[Dumori]

Eh if we're going to argue from a balance persepctive I'd say SnS is "too easy", you don't even need to change weapons just pop in a fresh mag and off you go. If we're doing thing purely for table balance of your party members then let flamethrowers or laser weapons work I guess. They're at least exotic and not trivial to carry around.

A super warhawk with APDS works well up to force 6 as well. And is cheaper than loading it with SnS. If harder to get hold of. SnS isn't that uber it juts makes holdouts godly.

[svenftw]

The answer lies in whether or not use count Spirits as metahuman targets. I can find no reference that equates metahumans and Spirits, even under the Free Spirit character creation section of Runners Companion. So at this point, the rifle does squat.

This is a good point. IRL these sonic nausea devices work by upsetting a person's equilibrium and giving them an instant and severe case of motion sickness, it's not a solid wall of damaging sound or anything of that nature. In fact, the human ear doesn't even hear most of it.

I would say that spirits are not susceptible to that effect at all.

[Mäx]

I thought so too, and I agree that it's absurd, but they even give an example of it.

Referance or quote please, you dont just get to make that kind of claims with out one of those.

[Yerameyahu]

Ditto, Screech are metahuman only, *possibly* certain critters. It's not the nausea that's Meta-only, it's all of the effect, Stun, whatever.

[Dumori]

I'm afriad it still does stun damage. And RAWly it might not inflict the effects of disorientation and nausea. But it still will deal 5s stun resited by willpower. Though I skipped over the meta-human part. In all reallyit I'd leave it to a GM decistion on what it effects. As currently it effects any thing with a stun track.

[svenftw]

Referance or quote please, you dont just get to make that kind of claims with out one of those.

SR4A, pg. 170 under the heading "Vehicle Damage". Sorry, I thought that one was a no-brainer.

[svenftw]

Ditto, Screech are metahuman only, *possibly* certain critters. It's not the nausea that's Meta-only, it's all of the effect, Stun, whatever.

Possibly, but quadrupeds aren't going to have the same equilibrium as bipedal creatures I would assume.

[Yerameyahu]

svenftw, no, I assumed you had another example reference. The one on 170 just means 'don't roll soak if you're soaking less automatic # boxes".

[svenftw]

I disagree. The example can only make any sense if it works the way I was saying. Think it through for a minute and I think you'll come to the same conclusion. I didn't want to believe it either, and assumed all the same things everybody else is assuming at first.

The relevant text:

"Whenever a vehicle is hit by an attack, it resists damage as normal, rolling
Body + Armor. If the attack’s modified DV does not exceed the
vehicle’s modified Armor, no damage is applied. Note that since many
vehicles will have large Body dice pools, gamemasters are encouraged
to use the trade-in-dice-for-hits rule (4 dice equals 1 hit) to simplify
tests. Your average tank, for example, will automatically get 4 hits on
a Body Test by trade in, so there is no point in rolling unless the hits
needed are higher than 4."

Meaning, if it can score enough automatic hits on the damage resistance roll to bring the DV below the armor rating, don't bother.

[Mäx]

SR4A, pg. 170 under the heading "Vehicle Damage". Sorry, I thought that one was a no-brainer.

My copy of the SR4A has zero examples in the whole vehicle combat section.
So i dont know what's going on in here, the last example my copy's combat chapter is right before the vehicle section starts in page 167.

[Yerameyahu]

No, the p170 example is very clearly nothing but an explanation of what the 'dice-for-hits trade' rule is, and it applies to the Resistance step.

[Draco18s]

Please use references, if you can.

The answer lies in whether or not use count Spirits as metahuman targets. I can find no reference that equates metahumans and Spirits, even under the Free Spirit character creation section of Runners Companion. So at this point, the rifle does squat.

Now we turn to the damage itself and see if it is something that can be applied to Spirits. The damage is sonic in nature, and there is an entry under Elemental Effects in the spell creation section of the Street Magic book that is sonic damage, and an Elemental Attack power for critters. Critter Powers are considered magical enough to get around Immunity to Normal Weapons.

Have I answered the question? No. The only way to do that would be to show that Critter Elemental Attacks, Sorcery Indirect Combat spell's Elemental Effects, and mundane sonic attacks are equivalent. I will not attempt that here, but someone else is welcome to.

I think your post there is a good reason why ITNW would grant its full value against sonic rifles. The ITNW would provide the same amount of "armor" against the sound attack as if it was damper earware.

Read it as "immunity to sonic attacks" and it works as intended: +N armor against sonic attacks. In this case only mundane sonic attacks apply (eg. the Screech Rifle and not critter powers or magic spells).

Of course. Then I just supplied a basis to have ITNW not get reduced from the "-half" AP of elemental weapons, so....YMMV.

[svenftw]

No, the p170 example is very clearly nothing but an explanation of what the 'dice-for-hits trade' rule is, and it applies to the Resistance step.

Read my edited post and think about it again. The example *only* makes sense if you roll resistance before the armor comparison.

[Yerameyahu]

Good, cuz it's my position that ITNW *isn't* subject to that AP. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

svenftw, I appreciate your effort, but I still don't see that. 'Hits needed' means, 'hits needed on the resistance test to reduce the incoming boxes of damage to 0'.

[Dumori]

No that's just saying if you are using the 4 dice for one hit rule then your don't need to roll resistance at all as you know its roll beforehand. IIf you didn't use that rule then you'd roll normally. Getting 33% more hits on average.

[Mäx]

My copy of the SR4A has zero examples in the whole vehicle combat section.
So i dont know what's going on in here, the last example my copy's combat chapter is right before the vehicle section starts in page 167.

Svenftw is the following text the one your basing your wild claim.

Vehicle Damage
Whenever a vehicle is hit by an attack, it resists damage as normal, rolling
Body + Armor. If the attack’s modified DV does not exceed the
vehicle’s modified Armor, no damage is applied. Note that since many
vehicles will have large Body dice pools, gamemasters are encouraged
to use the trade-in-dice-for-hits rule (4 dice equals 1 hit) to simplify
tests. Your average tank, for example, will automatically get 4 hits on
a Body Test by trade in, so there is no point in rolling unless the hits
needed are higher than 4.

If so then:
1.thats not an example, example are those green ones.
2.Nowhere does that say what you claim, it says vehicles resist damage normally and that if the attacks modified damage(base DV + nethits) doesn't exceed modified armor(armor - AP) no damage is made. I cant for life of me get where you got your wierd idea from that text.
If not then please provide a qote as my copy has no example there.

[svenftw]

Good, cuz it's my position that ITNW *isn't* subject to that AP. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

svenftw, I appreciate your effort, but I still don't see that. 'Hits needed' means, 'hits needed on the resistance test to reduce the incoming boxes of damage to 0'.

You're going down the same path I did at first... it's interesting to see it reflected back to me. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

But again - think about it - they are talking about a tank. How can it ever be taking 4 boxes of damage? Even if we apply the rules as we think they should work a tank can't be taking 4 DV. That coupled with the fact that rolling Body + Armor is listed as the *first* thing that happens when a vehicle takes damage makes the paragraph pretty clear.

If it doesn't work the way I'm saying, the writers failed miserably because it's intentionally misleading. Obviously nobody has to treat it this way, but my group is going to start to roll it like this and see what happens.

[SkepticInc]

I think your post there is a good reason why ITNW would grant its full value against sonic rifles. The ITNW would provide the same amount of "armor" against the sound attack as if it was damper earware.

Read it as "immunity to sonic attacks" and it works as intended: +N armor against sonic attacks. In this case only mundane sonic attacks apply (eg. the Screech Rifle and not critter powers or magic spells).

Of course. Then I just supplied a basis to have ITNW not get reduced from the "-half" AP of elemental weapons, so....YMMV.

True. Now we have to look at the Basic book's coverage of damage types.

$imon$ez:
SR4 154
Acid Damage
Corrosives and specific spells and critter powers may inflict Acid damage. Acid damage is treated as Physical damage and resisted with half Impact armor (rounded up). The chemical protection armor upgrade (p. 317) adds its full rating to the armor value.
$imoff:

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$imon$ez:
SR4 154
Cold Damage
Extreme environments and certain spells and critter powers may inflict Cold damage. Cold damage is treated as Physical damage and resisted with half Impact armor (rounded up). The insulation armor upgrade (p. 317) adds its full rating to the armor value.
$imoff:

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$imon$ez:
SR4 154
Electricity Damage
A wide variety of nonlethal weapons are designed to incapac- itate targets with electrical shock attacks, including stun batons, tasers, cyberware shock hands, and similar electrically-charged weapons. These weapons rely on a contact discharge of electricity rather than kinetic energy. Spells and critter powers such as Lightning Bolt and Energy Aura cause similar effects.
$imoff:

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$imon$ez:
SR4 155
Fire Damage
Certain types of flame or heat-based attacks inflict Fire damage, including (but not limited to): thermite, flares, Flamethrower and Fireball spells, and the Energy Aura and Engulf critter powers. Treat Fire damage as Physical damage, but Impact armor only protects against it with half its value (round up). The fire resistance armor upgrade (p. 317) adds its full rating to the armor value.
$imoff:

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All of these entries reference, but don't outright equate, elemental damage from natural causes, spells, and critter powers. Make of that what you will.

[svenftw]

Svenftw is the following text the one your basing your wild claim.

For the record (ignoring your attitude), this isn't my "wild idea" or "weird claim". This is what the book says. I don't agree with what the book says, but my group is going to try it out to see what happens.

[Mäx]

But again - think about it - they are talking about a tank. How can it ever be taking 4 boxes of damage? Even if we apply the rules as we think they should work a tank can't be taking 4 DV. That coupled with the fact that rolling Body + Armor is listed as the *first* thing that happens when a vehicle takes damage makes the paragraph pretty clear.

If it doesn't work the way I'm saying, the writers failed miserably because it's intentionally misleading. Obviously nobody has to treat it this way, but my group is going to start to roll it like this and see what happens.

That sentence doesn't make any sense what so ever anyway so its better to just ingnore it, there isn't even a relevant test called body test and a most tanks would probaply have a higher body then 16.
That sentence is just a stupidly written example on how the buying hits think works.

[Dumori]

Actually re-reading that. I believe svenftw has RAW right. If so it's a very odd peice of ruling that works counter to every other time damage is dealt with in SR. Gose to look at my none SR4A copy see if its changed there. It's basicly the same there as well. I don't think it's RAI though. I think its just been over looked for years.

[svenftw]

But there's more: "Hardened Armor" is just a critter power. Nothing else in RAW is treated as having "Hardened Armor" and nowhere else do the rules reference such a thing (that I'm aware of).

A vehicle can't have the Hardened Armor power. So if you forget the way Hardened Armor works and just read the Vehicle Damage paragraph it *does* make sense. If you're reading that paragraph while assuming vehicles work the same way as critters with the Hardened Armor power it doesn't make sense.

Regardless, you guys are preaching to the choir here if you're telling me it shouldn't work the way I'm saying it does. I agree with you. But the book apparently does not. After running through many test scenarios what I've found out is that if you use the rule this way all the sudden anti-vehicle weaponry really comes into its own. Gauss rifles, lasers, AV ammo/rockets/missiles, etc all become even more effective (almost to the level of being *required*) against vehicles than normal weapons are.

To me, that works. When you see that Citymaster roll up, you're going to have to put down the assault rifle and make a run to the car to get your Thunderstruck.

Regardless, this is way off topic so I apologize, Skeptic. It was just a strange and surprising quirk in the rules that a player in my group noticed.

[Ascalaphus]

Read my edited post and think about it again. The example *only* makes sense if you roll resistance before the armor comparison.

No, the advice refers to vehicles with (Body+Armor)/4 > Armor.

Modified DV vs. Modifier Armor comparison for vehicles happens at the same time as when you hit a character; before the resistance test. At that point, if the damage would become Stun (because the damage is low), the vehicle just doesn't take any damage.

Then, they try to be clever by pointing out that if the modified DV isn't at least 1/4th of the dice pool for damage resistance, you can simply dispense with the dice roll.

This all seems rather silly, until you notice that there are trucks with Armor 1, Body 20. At that point it makes sense, but the advice causes more confusion than it helps.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

You're chaining together loosely related sentences to arrive at the answer you desire, even if you were the correct the process looks something like this to me:

[ Spoiler ]

[img]http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/3x9.png[/img]

Now please answer my question. If tasers, lasers and flamethrowers are -half ITNW then you also believe that sonic rifles completely bypass ITNW, correct? Do the spirits also suffer from nausea? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Edit: Bah humbug, the board doesn't like .png files I suppose? Follow the link if you care.

I would say yes...

Keep the Faith