The definitive answer to Spirits and Stun Weapons, Really. Options

[Sengir]

Some tourists in the Chicago Museum of Natural History are marveling at the dinosaur bones. One of them asks the guard, "Can you tell me how old the dinosaur bones are?"
The guard replies, "They are 73 million, four years, and six months old."
"That's an awfully exact number," says the tourist. "How do you know their age so precisely?"
The guard answers, "Well, the dinosaur bones were seventy three million years old when I started working here, and that was four and a half years ago."

No matter how precise your deduction is, if the starting point was already vague and imprecise (as the rules in this case are) the result won't get any better.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

No matter how precise your deduction is, if the starting point was already vague and imprecise (as the rules in this case are) the result won't get any better.

I like the Quote that you provided there Sengir... Awesome! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Keep the Faith

[Mäx]

There may indeed be creatures with Immunities to things like fire and cold (Good catch there Mäx), but in general, Spirits are not one of those creatures (Not sure about Things like Shedim, Bugs or the Horrors (if you are using them))... And even if Shedim, Bugs or Horrors are immune to things like that, they would be listed in the description of their abilities and powers. Since General Spirits (The 10 available to Player Characters) do not list such things, then using ITNW to mimic that is not a correct useage of the ITNW ability, it is a Houserule.

Powers name is Immunity, natural weapons are only one of multiple thinks a critter can have that power for.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Powers name is Immunity, natural weapons are only one of multiple thinks a critter can have that power for.

No, I understand the Rationale... but when a power is assumed to have properties that it does not truly have (In this case, ITNW and Elemental Effects), then problems arise... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Keep the Faith

[Mäx]

No, I understand the Rationale... but when a power is assumed to have properties that it does not truly have (In this case, ITNW and Elemental Effects), then problems arise... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

If you read those post up there you notice that noone was assuming anythink like that, they where talking about different immunity powers not ITNW. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

If you read those post up there you notice that noone was assuming anythink like that, they where talking about different immunity powers not ITNW. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

Actually no, there were several people (Lanlaorn, who thinks that it is this way by default, and Yerameyahu, who knows that his useage is a Houserule, and is not arguing it is from the RAW, to name just two) who stated outright that ITNW completely protects spirits from such mundane things as Electricity, Acid, or any other non-magical Elemental damage, said assumption of which is blatantly wrong in this case... Lanlaorn specifically, is assuming something about ITNW (any non-magical elemental effect is irrelevent) that is incorrect. Its use as a Houserule does not bother me (which is why I do not implicate Yerameyahu in this statement), its declaration that ITNW works that way by RAW does... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)


Keep the Faith

[Lanlaorn]

Listen, you may not be aware of how an argument works so let me fill you in. You need to support your position with some form of reasoning, you can't just declare yourself the winner and make multiple posts where you constantly say that I'm incorrect and using a houserule. That's the height of arrogance and simply insulting.

I've been saying "in my opinion" but fuck that. Tymeaus Jalysnfein you are wrong. You are specifically assuming that, for some reason, Electricty, Acid, or any other non-magical Elemental damage is not a Normal Attack. The book very clearly defines Normal Attack as non-spell, non-foci, non-dual natured. Is your taser a spell, weapon foci or part of a dual natured critter (i.e. spirit possessed)? No? Then you are wrong by RAW and I encourage to admit the rule you play by is a houserule, as it rightfully is.

Also you really should learn to reply to multiple people in one post, because having 5-6 posts on a page be all you is annoying.

[Mordinvan]

Vehicles have no skin, so no contact vector.

'skin' would be the external painted surface

Vehicles don't breathe, so no inhalation.

Any car using fuel cells, or an I.C.E. engine sure does

Vehicles have no digestive system, so no ingestion.

Same as above

Vehicles have no bloodstream, so no injection.

Cars have plenty of circulating fluids in them.

Spirits don't have a nervous system for a tazer to disrupt, and tazers are far too high tech to be 'mystical' enough for the electricty they generate to be magical in nature.

Spirits don't have atomic matter in them, no protons, electrons, or molecular bonds for acids to interact with, so they can not be chemically affected by acids.

They have no physiology any mundane chemical could conceivably disrupt, so they can not be drugged or poisoned.

[Mordinvan]

The point that you miss there, Mordinvan, is that ITNW does not Grant TOTAL IMMUNITY... it provides them with Increased Resistance against things that are not Magical... therefore, even if it is not magical it can still hurt them if powerful enough... Most Elemental Effects reduce that ITNW from Force x2 to just Force... they can still be hurt... it just takes more than it otherwise would... against a human with 6 points of Impact Armor, A tazer acts as if the Armor is only 3... against a Force 6 Spirit with ITNW (12 points of Armor vs non-magical things) then it acts as Armor 6 for the purposes of Damage against Tazers...

Only if you think a tazer could actually hurt it in the first place.

You can claim that the rules for ITNW makes them invulnerable, but you claiming it does not make it so... ITNW, as an armor, which it is, is still subject to the AP properties of the weapon used against it. Just like ALL OTHER ARMOR IN THE GAME.

No I don't claim it is simply the ItNW which does, I claim it is the total absence of any component upon which the tazer could act to harm the spirit.

It is really simple, one rule for how armor interacts to cover all the various permutations out there... the only caveats to that one simple rule is that Vehicle Armor ignores any Stun Damage (Can't Stun a Vehicle after all), and ITNW ignores Damage if the DV is below the Modified Armor Value (Again, Can't hurt a Spirit if their "Armor" protects them completely; Oddly enough, it is a lot like Vehicle Armor, except Spirit's do have a Stun Track). Now, when that Modified Armor value is lower than the DV of the Weapon, the Spirit takes damage. But they still get to resist that damage with their Armor (remember, it is still treated like Armor) + Body Attribute. They may Still take no damage from the attack, but it is not so certain anymore.

Only if the form of attack is something to which the spirit could conceivably be vulnerable to.

All weapons have the potential to harm a spirit by RAW (Yes, even Poisons)...

I'm afraid they are no more vulnerable to it by RAW then cars are. RAW says spirits are not made out of matter, and do not have vital organs or biological processes, you know the things which make you actually vulnerable to poisons.

Anything else is just a house rule. You can use that Houserule you are so fond of (the gaming police are not going to knock down your door and take you off to the reesucation camps for it), but please don't make the mistake that it is RAW... It isn't.

This is a point I have to disagree on. Pg 92 of SM makes it rather clear that they do not possess any of the required components or systems to allow a toxin to function.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Listen, you may not be aware of how an argument works so let me fill you in. You need to support your position with some form of reasoning, you can't just declare yourself the winner and make multiple posts where you constantly say that I'm incorrect and using a houserule. That's the height of arrogance and simply insulting.

I've been saying "in my opinion" but fuck that. Tymeaus Jalysnfein you are wrong. You are specifically assuming that, for some reason, Electricty, Acid, or any other non-magical Elemental damage is not a Normal Attack. The book very clearly defines Normal Attack as non-spell, non-foci, non-dual natured. Is your taser a spell, weapon foci or part of a dual natured critter (i.e. spirit possessed)? No? Then you are wrong by RAW and I encourage to admit the rule you play by is a houserule, as it rightfully is.

Also you really should learn to reply to multiple people in one post, because having 5-6 posts on a page be all you is annoying.

Blah, Blah, Blah... The argument HAS been supported, by more than just me, and you continue to ignore how it works. That is okay, just don't claim it is RAW when you do so... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Keep the Faith

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Only if you think a tazer could actually hurt it in the first place.

No I don't claim it is simply the ItNW which does, I claim it is the total absence of any component upon which the tazer could act to harm the spirit.

Which the Rules refute... they take damage just like us squishy humans do...

Only if the form of attack is something to which the spirit could conceivably be vulnerable to.

Which they are... By RAW

I'm afraid they are no more vulnerable to it by RAW then cars are. RAW says spirits are not made out of matter, and do not have vital organs or biological processes, you know the things which make you actually vulnerable to poisons.

Which has been explained... tehy have analogous systems that take damage like Humans do... ergo, they are susceptible...

This is a point I have to disagree on. Pg 92 of SM makes it rather clear that they do not possess any of the required components or systems to allow a toxin to function.

Except again, their "Magical Systems" still react to the same types of damage that Humans and metahumans do... read it again, you will see it in there...

And again... All of your above arguments have been refuted by more than one person. We are getting no where in this discussion except for getting on a Merry-go-round. We keep coming back to the exact same place... You do not think that Non-Magical Elemental Effects matter, while many of the rest of us do... Your interpretation is a House Rule, and that is okay... Keep your house rule, and have fun... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Keep the Faith

[Lanlaorn]

Blah, Blah, Blah... The argument HAS been supported, by more than just me, and you continue to ignore how it works. That is okay, just don't claim it is RAW when you do so... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Keep the Faith

You know you're a failure when your opposition can literally repeat your argument word for word and it is equally true. Hell I'm going to go ahead and explicitly do it just for fun.

Blah, Blah, Blah... The argument HAS been supported, by more than just me, and you continue to ignore how it works. That is okay, just don't claim it is RAW when you do so...

[WearzManySkins]

Long Ago like 2+ years ago Synner made a comment in a thread very similar to this one.

The Gist of his statement/post Spirits do not have muscles/nervous systems to for SnS/Tasers to affect, ergo such weapons have no effect on spirits.

But I like others here have attempted many times to relocate that post.

Conspiracy Theory Nutz claim it was edited out or deleted but but again that is only a theory. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

I am not the only one that recalls that post by Synner also.

In my game SnS does not exist, and tasers/non corrosive/chemically active chemicals have any effect on Manifested Spirits.

[Mordinvan]

Which the Rules refute... they take damage just like us squishy humans do...

No nerves, no muscles, no damage.

Which they are... By RAW

No nerves, no muscles, no damage.

Which has been explained... tehy have analogous systems that take damage like Humans do... ergo, they are susceptible...

Can you find a RAW quote indicating that a spirit has an analogous nervous system? I can't. Expecially look for quotes indicating said nervous system may be conductive, or otherwise effect or be effected by electrical currents of a low enough power as to be unable to kill human cells.

Except again, their "Magical Systems" still react to the same types of damage that Humans and metahumans do... read it again, you will see it in there...

It only says they react to damage, not that acids, or poisons are capable of chemically reacting with the non matter they are composed of.

And again... All of your above arguments have been refuted by more than one person.

Pot... Kettle... Black...

We are getting no where in this discussion except for getting on a Merry-go-round. We keep coming back to the exact same place... You do not think that Non-Magical Elemental Effects matter, while many

But by no means all

of the rest of us do... Your interpretation is a House Rule,

Keep telling yourself that.

[D2F]

It only says they react to damage, not that acids, or poisons are capable of chemically reacting with the non matter they are composed of.

Acid burns (to name an excemple) are a form of damage. I'm not going to join the debate, as quite frankly it became a pointless circle jerk, but please stop to dodge the elephant in the room by redefining the meaning of the word "damage" just to remain right.

[Mordinvan]

Acid burns (to name an excemple) are a form of damage. I'm not going to join the debate, as quite frankly it became a pointless circle jerk, but please stop to dodge the elephant in the room by redefining the meaning of the word "damage" just to remain right.

acids burn by cause reactions between them, and other chemicals. Spirits are NOT comprised of chemicals. Thus acids can not react with them. Basics definitions of acids involve transferring a proton from the acid, to the chemical the acid is reacting with. Since spirits do not have proton accepting chemicals in their makeup, I don't see this working well.

[D2F]

acids burn by cause reactions between them, and other chemicals.

Which matters about as much as a sack of rice dropping in china as far as the rules are concerned. Also, where is your proof that "recombinant protoplasm that replicates function, mass, texture and properties near enough as to provide no physical difference" does not consist of protons amonst other elemental particles?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

You know you're a failure when your opposition can literally repeat your argument word for word and it is equally true. Hell I'm going to go ahead and explicitly do it just for fun.

Blah, Blah, Blah... The argument HAS been supported, by more than just me, and you continue to ignore how it works. That is okay, just don't claim it is RAW when you do so...

But that only works if you are actually right, which you really aren't... And of course, that is your right to play as you see fit... I have given up trying to actually convince you of this (which is different than failure), because it is pretty futile at this point... we will continue to play the way we play... and you know what? That is entirely okay by me... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

I have enjoyed the discussion though...

Keep the Faith

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Which matters about as much as a sack of rice dropping in china as far as the rules are concerned. Also, where is your proof that "recombinant protoplasm that replicates function, mass, texture and properties near enough as to provide no physical difference" does not consist of protons amonst other elemental particles?

Hey, D2F, it reallly is okay, he will not be convinced, even with the quotes and rules sitting right in front of him... He enjoys his houserule... that's oky by me... after all, it really is just a pointless circle jerk at this point. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Keep the Faith

[D2F]

Hey, D2F, it reallly is okay, he will not be convinced, even with the quotes and rules sitting right in front of him... He enjoys his houserule... that's oky by me... after all, it really is just a pointless circle jerk at this point. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Keep the Faith

I know, that's why I won't bother any further. It just baffles me, how he can simply postulate the very law that stems his entire argumentation and never even thinks of providing any supporting evidence...

[Mordinvan]

Which matters about as much as a sack of rice dropping in china as far as the rules are concerned. Also, where is your proof that "recombinant protoplasm that replicates function, mass, texture and properties near enough as to provide no physical difference" does not consist of protons amonst other elemental particles?

The fact there is a profound absence of any mention of matter being consumed to create a spirits body, or matter being left behind when a spirit is disrupted. Since matter does not exist on the astral, as proof of concept in that even astral gateways leave your body laying on the floor, the material spirits are made of is not matter as we know it, and thus likely not terribly susceptible to chemical reactions.

[Mordinvan]

I know, that's why I won't bother any further. It just baffles me, how he can simply postulate the very law that stems his entire argumentation and never even thinks of providing any supporting evidence...

because I already have, and you don't see to comprehend that. We could start at that point.

[Johnny Hammersti...]

Ah, the old expect magic to work like real science.

While we're at it, can you explain what happens when a spirit materializes?

Ultimately, there is the text in the book, RAW if you will, and our interpretations of it. there is no game with just one, you need both the functional rules set and the user's interpretation.

With the least amount of interpretation based on what it says in the book, you can SnS a spirit all you want, and it will work. at your table, this doesn't have to be the case. This is very much a GM fiat game, thank GOD. with that in mind, really, everyone is correct. There will be no definitive correct until the guy at Catalyst who can speak officially for the rules tells us.


Let's not get all ad hominem.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Let's not get all ad hominem.

There you go, throwing around all that Logic Speak... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
But you are very correct in that it really does not matter in the end... Maybe our interpretations will change with a valid argument, and maybe they will not... but you never know unless you try. In the end, We will all use the rules as we have interpreted them... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Keep the Faith

[Tomothy]

Tymeaus: Where in the rules does it explicitly state that elemental weapons are exempt from ITNW?