The definitive answer to Spirits and Stun Weapons, Really. Options

[IKerensky]

I wouldn't see guards using Ex or EX-EX... especially in a weapon manufacture...

I would see them use electric dart, bristle ammo or such things more often than not.

[Lansdren]

I wouldn't see guards using Ex or EX-EX... especially in a weapon manufacture...

I would see them use electric dart, bristle ammo or such things more often than not.

Whats bristle ammo?


But yea I can see your point what I was really getting at was if your making cool stuff ammo wise your more likely to dish it out to some of your guards as its a low cost item when balanced against the cost to risk ratio. A few bucks more money to drastically up your security effectivness in combat seems fair in some instances.

[IKerensky]

Bristle ammo are from the Arsenal, I am unsure how they are named in english. Thoses are the ammo that disintegrate against solid surface, supposedly specialties for Security Forces in sensible area and airplanes...

[Mordinvan]

The ADPS stuff I would save for specialised teams or those expecting to deal with vehicles because that's what its for. If you have a game where everyone and their dog is running round with some ultra hard to get forbidden ammo then that's between you and your GM. Personally I think power creep can get very silly if your not paying attention to it.

Ok, cause I was just asking, I've seen it said repeatedly that even gangers should have that kind of bullet in their guns, and I was wondering where everyone except the players were getting them from.

I like my games to be plausible.

I think we're on roughly the same page then.

[IKerensky]

If APDS are peculiarly efficient against high force spirit, shouldn't they be given to sec. forces that expect thus kind of opposition ? even if not expecting armored vehicules.

Sound also cheaper and more efficient to have one APDS magasine with a high penetration gun as a specialist in a squad than to provide real anti-tank weaponary. Even if he is not supposed to use them in every situation.

[Lansdren]

Ok, cause I was just asking, I've seen it said repeatedly that even gangers should have that kind of bullet in their guns, and I was wondering where everyone except the players were getting them from.



I think we're on roughly the same page then.

I think sometimes people get caught up with the power play stuff. It seems to me that all discussions end up based on some high end level to prove how bad the rules are, which is where the power gaming comes in with people quoting about ADPS and Milspec weapons.

Take this thread for example, on the whole the imunity against natural weapons thing can be a pain and some people have different opinions on how it should be dealt with but to me it seems relativly straight forward and not a major hassel with spirits from F1 to F5 once your hitting F6 and above its getting to the point where you need to break out the heavy weapons but surely thats the point of a F6+ spirit is for big engagements not small stuff.

[Mäx]

Take this thread for example, on the whole the imunity against natural weapons thing can be a pain and some people have different opinions on how it should be dealt with but to me it seems relativly straight forward and not a major hassel with spirits from F1 to F5 once your hitting F6 and above its getting to the point where you need to break out the heavy weapons but surely thats the point of a F6+ spirit is for big engagements not small stuff.

I dont know, considering that you can have multiple bound force 6 spirits straight out of chargen.

[Lansdren]

I dont know, considering that you can have multiple bound force 6 spirits straight out of chargen.

True with a cost of +25BP to get that magic at six and then minimum of 1bp per spirit so say 3 spirits with 3 services each is 9BP

So ok its possible to have three force six spirits at gen for only 34BP then the avererage mage spends.

It seems alot of BP to spend on something that if you really want you can get in game. But hey people do silly things all the time.

But as a comparison
For the less BP cost a Street Sam can have

Heavy Weapons 5 = 20BP
Specialised for assult cannon = 2Bp
Restricted gear for Panther XXL = 5Bp
Panther XXL with gyro harness smartlink and a load of ex ex ammo = 2BP

Have BP left over and be able to shoot though the said F6 spirits without to much hassle.

[Mäx]

True with a cost of +25BP to get that magic at six and then minimum of 1bp per spirit so say 3 spirits with 3 services each is 9BP

So ok its possible to have three force six spirits at gen for only 34BP then the avererage mage spends.

It seems alot of BP to spend on something that if you really want you can get in game. But hey people do silly things all the time.

But as a comparison
For the less BP cost a Street Sam can have

Heavy Weapons 5 = 20BP
Specialised for assult cannon = 2Bp
Restricted gear for Panther XXL = 5Bp
Panther XXL with gyro harness smartlink and a load of ex ex ammo = 2BP

Have BP left over and be able to shoot though the said F6 spirits without to much hassle.

Why on earth are you counting the sixth magic point in for this, do you always make mages that start with only magic 5.
And also that sammy is now slugging around a big ass piece of forbidden weaponry, not exactly subtle.
And the fact that the sammy has to get an assault cannon speaks volumes for the power of spirits, also there no such think as assault cannon ex-ex rounds.
And you need an other restricted gear quality for the ammo.

Also my point was only that force 6 spirits arent exactly something rare.

[Mäx]

Damm, multipost

[Lanlaorn]

Bristle ammo are from the Arsenal, I am unsure how they are named in english. Thoses are the ammo that disintegrate against solid surface, supposedly specialties for Security Forces in sensible area and airplanes...

In English they're called Frangible rounds.

Why on earth are you counting the sixth magic point in for this, do you always make mages that start with only magic 5.
And also that sammy is now slugging around a big ass piece of forbidden weaponry, not exactly subtle.
And the fact that the sammy has to get an assault cannon speaks volumes for the power of spirits, also there no such think as assault cannon ex-ex rounds.
And you need an other restricted gear quality for the ammo.

Also my point was only that force 6 spirits arent exactly something rare.

And his point was that neither are heavy weapons, using the same criteria of "I can have them coming out of chargen".

[Draco18s]

Why on earth are you counting the sixth magic point in for this, do you always make mages that start with only magic 5.

In order to have a bound F6 spirit at chargen, the mage would need to, at chargen, buy Magic 6. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Traul]

In order to have a bound F6 spirit at chargen, the mage would need to, at chargen, buy Magic 6. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Yes, but his point was that any mage should start with Magic 6, bound spirits or not, so this is not an extra cost. I tend to disagree, but that's another topic.

[Lansdren]

Why on earth are you counting the sixth magic point in for this, do you always make mages that start with only magic 5.
And also that sammy is now slugging around a big ass piece of forbidden weaponry, not exactly subtle.
And the fact that the sammy has to get an assault cannon speaks volumes for the power of spirits, also there no such think as assault cannon ex-ex rounds.
And you need an other restricted gear quality for the ammo.

Also my point was only that force 6 spirits arent exactly something rare.

Your right on the canon I'm afraid it was a very fast put together and I didnt sense check it, but truth be told the point still stands using the answer "I can at gen" isnt a very strong one there is alot of things one can do at gen but that doesnt mean one should if you want any form of flexibility and dont just want to be a one hit wonder.


As to the Magic six issue. Your right I assummed not running with magic six at character gen mostly due to my own preference of soft capping magic as the cost for that one point of magic seems somewhat out of balance. 25Bp which is the same as 50Karma to most people. This seems to me to fall in the not worth it side of a cost to benefit analysis in my mind and I think quite a few other people on here agree.

But this still goes back to my point on one hit or balance Magic six while fun is very costly same as having a bunch of bound F6 spirits.

But just to bring this down to a more normal level of mayhem as I would know it.

A F6 spirit could be taken out with a perfectly ordinary Ruger 100 rifle using common explosive rounds with only four net hits (base of 7DV +1 for explosive rounds +4 net hits Giving a modified DV of 12 against modified armour rating of 11). Ok would take a couple of shots and some good rolls but is doable in my mind.

[Mäx]

As to the Magic six issue. Your right I assummed not running with magic six at character gen mostly due to my own preference of soft capping magic as the cost for that one point of magic seems somewhat out of balance. 25Bp which is the same as 50Karma to most people. This seems to me to fall in the not worth it side of a cost to benefit analysis in my mind and I think quite a few other people on here agree.

Yes i gotto admit that going for magic 6 is stupidly exspensive in BP-gen, but i prefer to use karmagen anyway its just better and makes more sense using the same cost for stuff as asfter chargen

A F6 spirit could be taken out with a perfectly ordinary Ruger 100 rifle using common explosive rounds with only four net hits (base of 7DV +1 for explosive rounds +4 net hits Giving a modified DV of 12 against modified armour rating of 11). Ok would take a couple of shots and some good rolls but is doable in my mind.

Heh, hold-out loaded with S&S needs one nethit to damage that spirit, its gonna take a few shot but that spirit will go down.
I wasn't trying to say force 6 spirits are super strong, just that theyr not that rare.

[Warlordtheft]

Bristle ammo are from the Arsenal, I am unsure how they are named in english. Thoses are the ammo that disintegrate against solid surface, supposedly specialties for Security Forces in sensible area and airplanes...

I forget what they are called in Asenal---but the RL version are called frangible rounds. Great for damaging soft flesh, and basically disentigrate when they hit something solid like a wall or armor plate.

[darthmord]

I like tagz's house rules suggestion. Sweet, simple, to the point.

Coming from SR1 through current day, I see damage like so:

Normal
Elemental
Magical

ItNW works against Normal weapons. Thus against those, you get full effect. As historically, Elemental gives -1/2 and Magical gives -100%. Has always worked in games I've played in or ran.

SnS is rather cheesy. I think it would have worked better had it just given a flat damage that multiple rounds (hitting the target) would would stack. Something akin to each round that hits does 2 Stun, multiple rounds striking the target stack damage.

A sonic gun is an elemental attack. ItNW would still apply. Armor equal to Force would still be in the resistance roll.

A large part of the problem with some of the rules in the BBB is that their writers have tried to get fancy or clever with the rule instead of keeping it simple.

[Matsci]

A sonic gun is an elemental attack. ItNW would still apply. Armor equal to Force would still be in the resistance roll.

The Sonic gun disagrees with you

The Screech sonic attack can be projected as a narrow, medium, or wide spread beam, using the same rules as shotguns (see p. 144, SR4) for determining the number of targets affected and the DV modifier. The Screech is resisted with Willpower instead of Body. Armor does not apply, but damper earware (p. 333, SR4) provides 2 dice for the resistance test. A Hush or Silence spell reduces the Screech’s DV by –1 per ht on the Spellcasting Test. Targets hit by a Screech beam suf er the ef ects of disorienta-tion and nausea (see p. 245, SR4).

[JohnNoSIN]

SnS is rather cheesy. I think it would have worked better had it just given a flat damage that multiple rounds (hitting the target) would would stack. Something akin to each round that hits does 2 Stun, multiple rounds striking the target stack damage.

sticknshok rounds arent that bad if you make them shotgun rounds only like reality. shotguns should be onlly gun allowd to use weird shot materials, cause they're hard to hide unlike a tiffany self defender.

[Yerameyahu]

The Screech is not a sonic blasty gun. It's a metahuman-ear painful noise gun.

Yeah, that's the first thing I'd suggest if S&S are a problem in your game, and it's been suggested a lot in the past. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Shotgun-only.

[Mäx]

That just doesn't make any sense from the advancment of technology angle, we allready have that stuff for shotguns, are you saying you think there would be no advancement in the next 60+ years.
Personally i would prefer the shotgun version being more powerful then the rest as it's so much bigger round. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

[darthmord]

Matsci, I understand that as written it disagrees. I believe that to be incorrect and would rule as such at my table.

That said, it would still have its normal effect on metahumans. It just wouldn't be the panacea against Spirits as some would like. It uses an elemental process so it should follow that path.

IOW, if the game keeps making exceptions to the rules, then why bother having rules?

[Yerameyahu]

Nothing makes sense from the 'advancement of tech' angle. If you're gonna start worrying about that, you've got bigger problems. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)