The definitive answer to Spirits and Stun Weapons, Really. Options

[Lucyfersam]

Thats only a problem for direct combat spell, indirect ones fry droned nicely.

Indirect combat spells face the drones armor, which is usually significant, and always hardened, and at that point are facing the same problem that drones face against spirits.

[Ol' Scratch]

The issue is cleared up really easily by just looking at any number of direct references on the subject.

Street Magic p. 94, Disruption: "If a spirit in astral or materialized form suffers Physical or Stun damage sufficient to fill its damage track, the spirit is disrupted. [...] Watchers are never disrupted; knocking them out permanently destroys their fragile energies."

I really don't see how there's any argument about it.

[DireRadiant]

You know what we need?

To combat spirits ITNW Armor we need ITNW DV!

Even better...

Pink Armor is vulnerable to Pink DV!
Red Armor is vulnerable to Red DV!
Green Armor is vulnerable to Yellow DV! (Just for a change...)

[Mäx]

Indirect combat spells face the drones armor, which is usually significant

Highest armor a stock drone has is 12 and as indirect combat spells used are usually elemental that is halfed to 6, i wouldn't exactly call that significant.
That's avarage of 2 damage resisted, addindg the drones body of 4 raises that to 3 damage resisted.

[Lucyfersam]

See, the idea of balance is an interesting one.* In the context of ShadowRun the fulcrum should be that each option (in this case: mundane weapons, spells, spirits, etc.) each have something that they're good at taking down (and is not itself) and is weak to something else.

E.G. Rock beats paper, paper beats scissors, and sc--

Er. Wow, my head is clearly somewhere odd. Let me try again.

E.G. Rock beats scissors, scissors beats paper, and paper beats rock.

Which means even if it takes paper 3 turns to beat rock, but scissors only needs one to beat paper, there's still balance. Paper beats rock and scissors does not.

Mages can beat spirits, yes, but they also summon spirits thereby invalidating the idea of balance that mages are good against spirits (in RPS terms its trying to argue that Rock beats Rock--it doesn't work that way). If mages are "weak" to drones, then what are drones "weak" to? Mundanes? Hardly! Drones are mundane, non-magical, lead-throwing machines, just like the cybersam! Except slightly more resistant to some classes of spells (and weaker to others).

Spirits are supposed to be the support a mage brings in in order to beat another mage. A mage can't throw spells at a mage very well, mundanes can't identify the mage (so can't geek him first). A spirit on the other hand is "strong" versus mages (due to having powers that mages can't counter). Unfortunately it's also "strong" versus mundanes, throwing our entire RPS model out the window.

*Alternatively we can make everything super-overpowered in such a way that it will take decades for people to figure out which combo is the most overpowered, at which point the game will have already died from natural causes.

I fail to see how drones are any different than spirits in your argument... Drones are something anyone can bring and are basically strong against everything. Also, I don't think an RPS models either SR, the real world, or the various fiction sources SR is drawn from that that well, so I don't use it to try to define how the system should work. For a pure game, the balance of each option in some way (be it RPS, direct Vs., or whatever method), is very important, but for me it gets in the way of the interactive storytelling on the role-playing side. It's a difficult balance between the two, and every group will likely prefer a different balance point .

[DireRadiant]

Shadowrunners are all unbalanced to begin with, otherwise why are they running the shadows instead of stealing cars?

[Doc Chase]

You know what we need?

To combat spirits ITNW Armor we need ITNW DV!

Even better...

Pink Armor is vulnerable to Pink DV!
Red Armor is vulnerable to Red DV!
Green Armor is vulnerable to Yellow DV! (Just for a change...)

Whoa whoa whoa, Citizen.

Only laser barrels classified 'Green,' 'Blue,' 'Indigo,' or 'Violet' can damage armor classified as 'Green.'

Dare you disagree with Friend Computer?
(only communists disagree with Friend Computer)

[SkepticInc]

Whoa whoa whoa, Citizen.

Only laser barrels classified 'Green,' 'Blue,' 'Indigo,' or 'Violet' can damage armor classified as 'Green.'

Dare you disagree with Friend Computer?
(only communists disagree with Friend Computer)

Scooped.

[Draco18s]

Whoa whoa whoa, Citizen.

Only laser barrels classified 'Green,' 'Blue,' 'Indigo,' or 'Violet' can damage armor classified as 'Green.'

Dare you disagree with Friend Computer?
(only communists disagree with Friend Computer)

Oh man, I love Paranoia. Got to play this last weekend (we blew up a sector of Alpha Complex by overloading its reactor--I'm not entirely sure, still, if it was anyone's intention or not. I just know it wasn't our sector that blew up after power was re-routed to the other sector).

[Dumori]

Drone armour isn't hardened something to keep in mind they just lack a stun-track.

Now please answer my question. If tasers, lasers and flamethrowers are -half ITNW then you also believe that sonic rifles completely bypass ITNW, correct? Do the spirits also suffer from nausea? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

To answer this hmmm and yes. By the rules nausea isnt just feeling sick it's pain, panic ect and dose not exclude spirts as far as I am able to tell.

The soinic rifle poses an odd issue it sates its not effected by Regular armor. This raised the question dose hardened/hardened like armor apply here? As far as I know its to only mundane sonic effect magic can produce them as well but they would bypass ITNW.

[DireRadiant]

Sonic Armor! For Sonic Rifle DV.

All those Ares Predators is why my Armor Jacket is made from Ares Predators.

[Doc Chase]

Sonic Armor! For Sonic Rifle DV.

All those Ares Predators is why my Armor Jacket is made from Ares Predators.

Y'know, a dedicated commlink with a mic and playback speakers to send a interference pulse when the sonic weapon was fired would make an effective form of 'Sonic' armor...

[Shinobi Killfist]

I don't much care for balance actually, mundanes should not be balanced against magic. That's why it's magic, it's better than mundane. If I want a system bowing down to balance as all important, I'll go play DnD 4th ed.


Besides, A drone or vehicle system is mundane and will still raise hell with a magician even if it has spirits, as they are not going to be much more effective against a good drone than they are against the spirit, and the drone then is mostly free to focus on the mage.

There is balance and there is balance. I don't need 4e D&D style balance and I do not even want it. And heck the idea of what SR seems to try to go for of where you want a mage to deal with a mage, a decker to deal with a decker is fine and dandy. But I think there is no you need a combat monster to deal with a combat monster moment. They decided to try and 4e D&D it and make everyone combat monsters just in different ways so the Sam and phys adept there rolls are almost worthless in comparison, because you don't need them to deal with normal physical threats and heck the decker and the mage might actually deal with those ordinary physical threats better on top of handing there niche protected threats.

Thing is a drone can be dealt with fairly easily by a mage in 3 ways direct combat spells if he has a good pool, indirect elemental spells, and nothing stops a mage from just shooting it like everyone else. When facing a spirit what do non-mages have as an option, well stick and shock and running away. Take away the stick and shock and all you got it running away. And ever if drones were just as big of a hassle to mages as spirits are to everyone else until drones could poof in out of thin air its not much of a comparison.

Total balance is not needed, but balance so there is some kind of need or desire beyond roleplaying to be an archtype that is supposed to be part of the game world is needed.

[Lanlaorn]

Eh if we're going to argue from a balance persepctive I'd say SnS is "too easy", you don't even need to change weapons just pop in a fresh mag and off you go. If we're doing thing purely for table balance of your party members then let flamethrowers or laser weapons work I guess. They're at least exotic and not trivial to carry around.

[The Dragon Girl]

..isn't this what we have phys adepts for anyhow? Punch the spirit in the face! Works real good, especially when killing hands is combined with some of the other powers..

[Mäx]

Eh if we're going to argue from a balance persepctive I'd say SnS is "too easy", you don't even need to change weapons just pop in a fresh mag and off you go. If we're doing thing purely for table balance of your party members then let flamethrowers or laser weapons work I guess. They're at least exotic and not trivial to carry around.

Well luckily Acid filled capsule rounds also work nicely by just popping a new mag, no need for any stupid excotic weapons.

[Yerameyahu]

I hope you were being sarcastic about spirits suffering nausea. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Draco18s]

Y'know, a dedicated commlink with a mic and playback speakers to send a interference pulse when the sonic weapon was fired would make an effective form of 'Sonic' armor...

Sorry, but sound doesn't really work that way. As soon as the mic can pick up the sound wave you've already been effected. Trust me, I've used feedback killers (takes 5 seconds for it to detect feedback and its the longest 5 seconds ever).

Also, such an interference pulse would have to be properly timed to produce the inverted wave and then it would only line up in some locations.

[Doc Chase]

Sorry, but sound doesn't really work that way. As soon as the mic can pick up the sound wave you've already been effected. Trust me, I've used feedback killers (takes 5 seconds for it to detect feedback and its the longest 5 seconds ever).

Also, such an interference pulse would have to be properly timed to produce the inverted wave and then it would only line up in some locations.

Good to know.

[Draco18s]

Note: in other locations the effect would be worse. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[svenftw]

Indirect combat spells face the drones armor, which is usually significant, and always hardened, and at that point are facing the same problem that drones face against spirits.

Vehicle (and drone) armor is actually superior to Hardened Armor. On vehicles, you compare the armor value to the damage taken *after soaking* to determine if any damage gets through.

[Yerameyahu]

Wait, what? That's absurd. I think you're being confused by the (confusing) order of the sentences there, but modified DV is just (DV + Net hits), not 'post-soak damage'.

[svenftw]

I thought so too, and I agree that it's absurd, but they even give an example of it.

[Yerameyahu]

Jesus. Thank god for rule 7: 'if it's stupid, it's wrong, especially if there's a simpler, more general, and better way already built into the game'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[biccat]

Your semantic argument is without flaw, and it's end result is that you are treating Immunity to Normal Weapons as a new type of Armor to go with the Armor, Hardened Armor, and Mystic Armor critter powers. You are presenting the exact argument that I was attempting to prove or disprove by making a mathematical-type proof. Basically, if what you say is the case (as I thought), then prove it by re-deriving it using the other rules in the books. This exercise lead me to a different conclusion, but if you don't agree with the concept of a proof-style argument holding weight here, that's fine.

I don't know what you mean I'm considering ITNW as "a new type of armor." Does it function differently than Hardened Armor? Yes, because it's a different power than Hardened Armor and Armor. There aren't any other critter powers that are dependent on other powers, so why should ITNW be any different?

Your argument isn't a proof, as I've pointed out, because it ignores language in the relevant rules. The issue is far from being "definitive".