ARSENAL : Modified Weapons., Are they avaliable at character creation, what cost, what avaliabil ? Options

[Mäx]

I am sorry if I feel a bit irritated but that's because all thoses people telling "Dude the price are right there into the tables", without carring to read what is written into the book.

No your just not reading what we're saying, chargen recourcer doesn't reprecent the character buying stuff from a shop and as just the list of prices in arsenal is enought for chargen.

[IKerensky]

But you are not understanding what I am telling you. Thoses price are not the price of the amelioration. By paying thoses price you character only buy the materials needed to build the amelioration.

You starting character start with a pile of metal bits and electronics and that is all that he paid for.

Just like when you buy something from any other table you only get what you paid for.

"Starting characters must have the money to cover the full cost of an item." SR4A p46
Full cost of amelioration include Tools and Plan.

I understand the comparation with Cyberware, but for Cyberware the table include the price of the finished things you are buying. You only got the medical interraction not to pay. If you buy a Cyberware later on you will paid the same price, there is no price listed for adding the cyberpart to the character.

For weapon modification the listed price is not the final price, and after creation you still wont get a full weapon modification for this price.

[Mäx]

I understand the comparation with Cyberware, but for Cyberware the table include the price of the finished things you are buying. You only got the medical interraction not to pay. If you buy a Cyberware later on you will paid the same price.

Yeah but then you just have an implant in a package/freezer not one implanted on your body.

And how about those 2 other points i mentioned.

[IKerensky]

A frozen implant is very different from a steel tube, several inches of wires, some electronic gadget and assembling parts. wich you have no knowledge on how to assemble and no tools to do so. And the implant is complete and ready to be implanted. There is no additionnal price listed for the actual operation, meaning that they are already included into the price (I could stand corrected if thus price are listed into Augmentation by example).

And when you buy a cyberlimb or implant there is no additionnal price mentionned on the rules or table. When you buy the ressource to make the modification there is several other element mentionned in the table (tools column) and rules (need for a plan, need for tests).

*Mages getting spell without having to buy a formulae

When mage buy a spell at character creation they pay it 3 BP, they dont refere at all to the standard procedure for buying/creating spell after character creation. Entirely different procedure with entirely different set of rules.

*Mages getting bound spirits without having to pay for summoning materials
Sames for bound spirit at creation, special case with special price and formula, not the standard one from the table.

Refering to the mages exemple, if weapon modification were supposed to be avaliable at character generation some kind of extrapolated procedure should have been present to use (just as for techno Sprite and Great Form). Arsenal rules lack the cost and procedure to buy amelioration at character generation.

[Deadmannumberone]

Character creation rules doesnt mention weapons nor vehicules modification in the gear that can be buyed. Of course they are after the arsenal.

Character creation also doesn't mention software, drug, toxins, explosives, armor/clothing, or tools as items that can be purchased, and only lists the items in the Street Gear chapter as being available. So if you go by that logic, all the stuff from the extended core books are out.

[Traul]

(I could stand corrected if thus price are listed into Augmentation by example).

They are, in the Medtech section.

And when you buy a cyberlimb or implant there is no additionnal price mentionned on the rules or table.

There is. It is the implant grade or type that determines the implantation cost.

[Draco18s]

But you are not understanding what I am telling you. Thoses price are not the price of the amelioration. By paying thoses price you character only buy the materials needed to build the amelioration.

So...you want two entries in the weapons mod table. One that says "cost to build" and one that says "cost to have, but only at chargen, because this shit can't be bought, ever, but you can start the game with it"?

For weapon modification the listed price is not the final price, and after creation you still wont get a full weapon modification for this price.

There isn't a full price. At least not one that can be listed, due to the number of combinations.

Weapon Price + Mod Price = Final Price.

Not knowing what weapon the player is looking at modding, they can only list the mod price and hope you can do simple math.

[Ol' Scratch]

Character Creation != Gameplay.

They have their own rules and guidelines for a reason. There's artificial limitations in character creation that have no bearing on actual gameplay (such as Availability and rating restrictions) and leftover nuyen isn't converted to gameplay nuyen on a 1:1 scale... or any scale at all. You don't have to pay service fees during character creation, whether that be for installing an implant, paying the various sundry tips/bribes/gifts required to secure that Loyalty 5-6 contact of yours, or having an accessory or modification applied to your weapon or vehicle. You don't have to roll to find an appropriate clinic. You don't have to roll Availability tests. You don't have to make Build/Repair tests. It's all assumed to be taken care of during the character creation phase. As long as you stay within the Availability/rating limits and your GM's house rules, you're fine.

I realize you don't care for that, and that's fine, too. Just call it one of your house rules and carry on, or simply disallow the use of weapon/vehicle modifications during character creation. That's your right as a GM.

[Yerameyahu]

Draco18s, that's not what he meant, I think. He's repeating that the prices don't include labor, plans, etc.

[Dumori]

If 8R was the avaliability of the modification it would mean you are prohibited from having a HVAR but could have a HV colt M223 or HV SMG. Wich make no sense AND ARE NOT WHAT IS WRITTEN IN THE RULES !!!

The availability of the modded gun is that of the highest involved if it needs to come up. AND OMFG AVAILABILITY RULES MAKING NO SENSE REALLY! they are arbitary already so yeah I have no probs with them remaining such.

[Draco18s]

Draco18s, that's not what he meant, I think. He's repeating that the prices don't include labor, plans, etc.

Which means it doesn't matter. Money at chargen is worth significantly more than money after chargen.

If he really wants to me a rules lawyer about it, he can go look up the "hired help" rules and figure out what it would cost to contract the modification work out to an NPC. It will almost certainly cost less than 1 BP to do all the work for all his guns.

[Yerameyahu]

*shrug*. I don't see how that alters the point that the weapon mods are explicitly parts-only list price.

[Caadium]

If you are worried about the use of modifications getting out of hand during character creation, perhaps you might want to consider the way I do it:

I treat weapons like contact lenses, and other similar things. By that I mean, you add the availabilities together, as well as the cost. Each modification makes it harder to get in my opinion, so I don't look at the individual availabilities for each mod.

I'm away from my books right now (and too be honest my players usually don't go that overboard), but I believe that unless you take restricted gear you wouldn't be able to get a HV modded weapon if you add the availabilities together; thus making it hard for a character to start wtih just like normal HV weapons. Of course, since I'm away from my books I could be wrong, but thats how I generally handle Mods to most things. If you buy it later and remod something, then you deal with just that availability; but if you do it bulk, availabilities combine.

[Yerameyahu]

Well, for contacts, I always thought adding was the lamest sneaky rule, so I usually ignore it. Basically, it encourages people to wear contacts with goggles. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Caadium]

Well, for contacts, I always thought adding was the lamest sneaky rule, so I usually ignore it. Basically, it encourages people to wear contacts with goggles. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

In my group I find it limits everyone having the one uber pair of contacts/glasses (based on style preference), but makes people think about what they will put where.

It hasn't come up yet, but perhaps later I'll look to see what this does to hackers and riggers. Perhaps keeping them from starting with the uber deck/vehicles by limiting what mods they want and forcing them be more broad. If I did look into doing this I'd also look at things like cyberlimbs and their mods, etc.

Also, I just looked, and it would be possible using the rule I suggest to start with a HV weapon.

AK-97 is base availability 4 so the +8 HV would work.
The same is true for the HK-MP5 and Uzi
Then again, Ares HVAR is base availability 11 so. . . .

[Yerameyahu]

Is the HV weapon an important touchstone or something? I feel like they're not any better than another gun, because you won't have enough RC.

[Ol' Scratch]

I don't really get it either. As mentioned, the Ares HVAR and Ingram Supermach are both freely available to characters during creation.

In my experience, it's when players catch on that they can have fully BF (and even FA if you really want to) Heavy Pistols through the weapons modification rules that it becomes a problem, and then only if you actually see that as a problem. I've never had trouble saying "no" myself, but that seems to be kind of a rare thing around these parts.

[Caadium]

I don't really get it either. As mentioned, the Ares HVAR and Ingram Supermach are both freely available to characters during creation.

In my experience, it's when players catch on that they can have fully BF (and even FA if you really want to) Heavy Pistols through the weapons modification rules that it becomes a problem, and then only if you actually see that as a problem. I've never had trouble saying "no" myself, but that seems to be kind of a rare thing around these parts.

I actually agree with you completely. I only focused on the HV because it was part of what the OP was focused on.

[Dumori]

BF heavy pistols are ok. They bearly carry enough ammo to really cause a problem in my games. Then I tend to play a game where an AR is a valid option in combat. Not a oh god in come the tanks as some people do. Its FA holdouts with SnS you have to look out for. 15dvS(e) from a gun that is hard to spot in a guys palm...

[Yerameyahu]

Can they even hold 10 whole bullets? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Ugh. That's why GM oversight is there. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Ol' Scratch]

In my group I find it limits everyone having the one uber pair of contacts/glasses (based on style preference), but makes people think about what they will put where.

As mentioned, that really only comes up during character creation, though. Availability is really lame in 4th Edition. It's not an actual limitation, it just dictates how long it takes to get something. And unless the number gets ridiculously high and you're using the optional(?) rule of degrading dice pools on Extended Tests, you can get your hands on just about anything before too long. Especially if you have an appropriate contact and some spare cash to throw at it.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

A frozen implant is very different from a steel tube, several inches of wires, some electronic gadget and assembling parts. wich you have no knowledge on how to assemble and no tools to do so. And the implant is complete and ready to be implanted. There is no additionnal price listed for the actual operation, meaning that they are already included into the price (I could stand corrected if thus price are listed into Augmentation by example).

And when you buy a cyberlimb or implant there is no additionnal price mentionned on the rules or table. When you buy the ressource to make the modification there is several other element mentionned in the table (tools column) and rules (need for a plan, need for tests).

*Mages getting spell without having to buy a formulae

When mage buy a spell at character creation they pay it 3 BP, they dont refere at all to the standard procedure for buying/creating spell after character creation. Entirely different procedure with entirely different set of rules.

*Mages getting bound spirits without having to pay for summoning materials
Sames for bound spirit at creation, special case with special price and formula, not the standard one from the table.

Refering to the mages exemple, if weapon modification were supposed to be avaliable at character generation some kind of extrapolated procedure should have been present to use (just as for techno Sprite and Great Form). Arsenal rules lack the cost and procedure to buy amelioration at character generation.

What you fail to notice though, mimicing your examples above, that you can treat modifications the same way... you buy the parts and ignore the cost to assemble... In game play goes by different rules... much like the summoning of Spirits and Spell purchase after game starts... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Keep the Faith

[Five Eyes]

I think what IKerensky's getting hung up on is that Arsenal, I believe, notes that the costs are for the materials to perform the modifications as a DIY sort of thing. Typically, base materials cost, what, half of the cost of the full item?

What his stance is, as far as I can tell, is that for most items the listed cost is the market value of the item, not including necessarily the cost to acquire it (i.e. your cyber-implant costs this much to buy but more to implant or to rent clinic hours to have the surgery performed, etc etc.) - anyone that has the capability of building that part can do so themselves for less.

i.e. Almost any listed item costs X in raw materials to make, and (if memory serves) 2X to purchase. It might also cost 2X+Y, where Y is the cost of getting access to it, but Y-based costs are ignored during chargen.

However, most people would not let a character with the relevant skills have a bunch of items at Cost X during chargen, even if they could have made them themselves, because of the abstract nature of chargen cash.

The modification rules suggest that the listed costs for a mod represent the price X, for DIYers, and the OP is asking what they should cost during chargen, where you can't get a half-price discount because you could hypothetically have built the thing yourself.

If you accept that chain of reasoning as regards what the listed price means for modifications (i.e. materials cost rather than market cost), then I'd suggest charging 2X as the item's "market price", whether as the cost to get it from a gunsmith or as the "cost" during chargen.

[Draco18s]

To which I respond in one of two ways:

1) Waving my arms around and going "wooba-wooba-woo" and point out that by RAW the cost is x, therefore the COST is x.

2) "He's a mage, right?"
"Yes, but I--"
"He used magic"
"But how did he--"
"MAGIC!"

[Yerameyahu]

I'd just double the Arsenal costs. 50% for materials is a perfectly good rule of thumb. It doesn't make sense to pay the material-only cost at chargen if you don't have the relevant skills, and they're explicitly listed as materials-only costs.