Weapon foci Options

[Tanegar]

So, I just add the cost of the focus (Force x ¥10,000) to the cost of the melee weapon? Any melee weapon?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

So, I just add the cost of the focus (Force x ¥10,000) to the cost of the melee weapon? Any melee weapon?

Yes... Why Not? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Keep the Faith

[Lanlaorn]

If this is during play and not chargen it's easier to just make it yourself, you can default on Enchanting, the threshold is 16 and the interval only a day. The formula, a few cheap reagents and a little downtime later you have your weapon for a fraction of the cost.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

If this is during play and not chargen it's easier to just make it yourself, you can default on Enchanting, the threshold is 16 and the interval only a day. The formula, a few cheap reagents and a little downtime later you have your weapon for a fraction of the cost.

Except, if you are defaulting, and your dice pool is reducing, you will never actually manage to make a focus in game...

Keep the Faith

[Lanlaorn]

Reducing skill dice for extended tests is just an optional rule for some tests. Because even in the examples in the books they've got people with low dice pools making these things. In the Enchanting section of Street Magic I believe the example had a character with 6 dice pool making a Force 5 Foci (-5 for the force +5 from her reagents so +0 net modifier), and hitting that 16 threshold would be nearly impossible with a reducing pool.

Some of the high threshold tasks would be outright pointless, like Ally Formulas at Force x5, even with 12 dice you're not going to pull off a threshold of 25, and considering the alternative is a metaplanar quest where you'll actually earn karma, well...

Even if you play with them for most extended tests I think for crafting you should forgo reducing the dice pool since having a small pool and taking many rolls increases the chances of a glitch dramatically, which is all the balancing factor you really need. Plus it adds a nice feel to a game to have characters actually writing their spells, coding their software, modifying their gear and so on during downtime rather than just buying it all out of a mail order catalog or having the Face run around town buying things up.

[phlapjack77]

I don't think you can default on Enchanting? At least, it seems you can't according to SR4A.

[Lanlaorn]

There appears to be some irregularity there, in the front of the SKills chapter where all the skills are listed niehter Arcana nor Enchanting are italicized, indicating they can be defaulted upon. However later in the chapter in their individual categories both say "No" under Default. Street Magic also has them as "No" for defaulting so I guess that should be how it's handled?

[phlapjack77]

Also, the skills list has Enchanting as a Logic-based skill, while the actual description puts it as Enchanting(Magic).

It does seem like they meant for all "Magic Active Skills" to be non-defaultable...

[Wasabi]

So, I just add the cost of the focus (Force x ¥10,000) to the cost of the melee weapon? Any melee weapon?

Even a monowhip with personalized grip and ruthenium coating, yes.
(although the mods add to the melee weapon cost as normal)

[Lansdren]

Even a monowhip with personalized grip and ruthenium coating, yes.
(although the mods add to the melee weapon cost as normal)

Whats the point of a Ruthenium coating on a item which is smaller then a pistol?

[Wasabi]

So the cops don't see it when you're in a Chameleon Suit?

:-)

[Lansdren]

So the cops don't see it when you're in a Chameleon Suit?

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Ahh right well I can see your point but I would say its a unnneeded expense.

The whips handle is same size/smaller then a pistol and as such shouldnt effect the suits benefits. From what I remember in Arsenal the coating is needed form anything bigger then a pistol so as not to mess up a suit.

[Aerospider]

Reducing skill dice for extended tests ... even with 12 dice you're not going to pull off a threshold of 25

Just to satisfy my pedant chip, you actually could reasonably expect to achieve 25 with a reducing DP of 12.

12+11+10+...+1 = 78 => 26 hits expected

Glitches make the overall probability less than 50% but it would still be quite doable.


The formula for the total number of dice available in a reducing extended test is

(n/2)(n+1)

where n is the starting size of the dice pool.

[Traul]

Don't forget Edge. Enchanting is serious business, it's definitely worth spending Edge on it.

[Ol' Scratch]

The rules never tell you that you have to pay the base cost of the weapon to my knowledge. It's not an accessory. It's not a mod. It's a unique item all its own with its own price tag... one so high that it renders the base cost of a normal melee weapon moot anyway.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

The rules never tell you that you have to pay the base cost of the weapon to my knowledge. It's not an accessory. It's not a mod. It's a unique item all its own with its own price tag... one so high that it renders the base cost of a normal melee weapon moot anyway.

Reducing skill dice for extended tests is just an optional rule for some tests. Because even in the examples in the books they've got people with low dice pools making these things. In the Enchanting section of Street Magic I believe the example had a character with 6 dice pool making a Force 5 Foci (-5 for the force +5 from her reagents so +0 net modifier), and hitting that 16 threshold would be nearly impossible with a reducing pool.

Some of the high threshold tasks would be outright pointless, like Ally Formulas at Force x5, even with 12 dice you're not going to pull off a threshold of 25, and considering the alternative is a metaplanar quest where you'll actually earn karma, well...

Everyone plays things different I guess...

AS for the Reducing Dice Pols... I have found that 12 Dice will generally allow you do do most things, even with a reducing Dice Pool... Edge expenditures (as well as superior Tools, and other possible bonuses to the Rolls indicated) will generally insure the completeion of said rolls... I have Coded Software (some at ratings above 6), Crafted Spells, Crafted Foci (upt to Rating 5), and created customized Hardware, all with reducing Dice Pools, and Often with less than 12 Base Dice, and have still succeeded... So your assumption that you will always fail is erroneous. My guess is that you have not been inclined to test this theory... I will admit, I was skeptical at first, but it has worked out wonderfully, and it provides a serious impetus to increase your skills if you are wanting to do the more powerful things, as you should... No one expects you to craft a Spell with a Skill of 1 and an Attribute of 3... it just isn't going to happen unless you are receiving some help somewhere...

Keep the Faith

[Lanlaorn]

It isn't going to happen with a skill of 1 and an Attribute of 3 because you have a very high chance of rolling a glitch.

I really like the rules entry on this topic since it echos how I feel: you should assume that a player will succeed if given enough time unless there's a story based element that should prevent that, and then choose to either limit the intervals or reduce the dice pool to make it a question.

Extended Tests assume that given enough time a competent character
will eventually complete a given task. Though it may seem that
characters are guaranteed of success over time, this might not always be
appropriate or dramatic. The character may have a limited timeframe
in which to accomplish the task, so she may run out of time before she
finishes the job. The gamemaster can also limit the number of rolls
under the assumption that if the character can’t finish it with a certain
amount of effort, she simply doesn’t have the skills to complete it.
The suggested way to do this is to apply a cumulative –1 dice modifier
to each test after the first (so a character with a Skill 3 + Attribute 3
would roll 6 dice in their first test, 5 in their second, 4 on their third,
etc). Note that a character can also fail an Extended Test by glitching
(see below).

It ultimately comes down to GM discretion but I'd rather just uncapped rolling for character appropriate tasks rather than trying to weasel as many bonuses as possible out of it, "So I mod my motorcycle during the down time and I have an AR display up of the instructions, my garage should count as a superior workshop, uh, all my tools are laid out in ergonomic and efficient ways, I arrange the lighting to better illuminate my work and, umm, I arrange myself and the motorcycle so the feng shui of the room is excellent".

I agree for the "more powerful things" you should be a specialist with 6 ranks in that crafting skill. But, for the enchanting example, that's things like unique enchantments and for technical skills anytime you try to build something expensive from it's component parts for the 50% price discount. Anyway regarding what you "should" be able to do realistically, if you've got 6-7 in Logic dice then you're in the genius levels and should be able to "slow and steady" your way through most anything. You'd be so smart you'd independently derive solutions that a more skilled craftsman is taught, it just slows you down (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I agree for the "more powerful things" you should be a specialist with 6 ranks in that crafting skill. But, for the enchanting example, that's things like unique enchantments and for technical skills anytime you try to build something expensive from it's component parts for the 50% price discount. Anyway regarding what you "should" be able to do realistically, if you've got 6-7 in Logic dice then you're in the genius levels and should be able to "slow and steady" your way through most anything. You'd be so smart you'd independently derive solutions that a more skilled craftsman is taught, it just slows you down (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I have known several geniuses personally, and within their own field, they are indeed... Geniuses... Oftentimes, though, when they were out of their element, they were more clueless than those who were considered less intelligent than they were... I know the game does not quite work like that, but it is something to remember...

As for the rules (optional though they are), if it is something that you eventually will succeed at (like your example of working on a car), yes, you will probably, eventually, complete the work (So we do not even roll). However, whenever we are actually rolling such things, it is generally because speed matters, and as such, the reducing dice pool works wonders. I am a big fan of it now, personally, as it removes "Eventually" from the equation...

But, it is definitely a preference... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Lanlaorn]

Yea if time matters than by all means, have at it. Given the long intervals of most of these tests it just seems like a productive use of downtime, almost like a hobby. A three month interval to write a combat spell formula is pretty crazy, especially when they're relatively quite cheap, but if it's not a something you need anytime soon it's just handy to roll whenever the time comes up. For example writing a thesis as an ordeal for initiation, given the karma cost of initiation you may not care how long it takes since you want to get X spells first or whatever and it'll be a while before you need it.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Yea if time matters than by all means, have at it. Given the long intervals of most of these tests it just seems like a productive use of downtime, almost like a hobby. A three month interval to write a combat spell formula is pretty crazy, especially when they're relatively quite cheap, but if it's not a something you need anytime soon it's just handy to roll whenever the time comes up. For example writing a thesis as an ordeal for initiation, given the karma cost of initiation you may not care how long it takes since you want to get X spells first or whatever and it'll be a while before you need it.

Indeed...

Keep the Faith

[Dumori]

Ahh right well I can see your point but I would say its a unnneeded expense.

The whips handle is same size/smaller then a pistol and as such shouldnt effect the suits benefits. From what I remember in Arsenal the coating is needed form anything bigger then a pistol so as not to mess up a suit.

It also makes the item harder to find.

[Jaid]

The rules never tell you that you have to pay the base cost of the weapon to my knowledge. It's not an accessory. It's not a mod. It's a unique item all its own with its own price tag... one so high that it renders the base cost of a normal melee weapon moot anyway.

the simple way to resolve this is to ask the question:

how would you feel about an ares thunderstruck enchanted as a rating 1 counterspelling focus? should it cost 5,000 nuyen and have an availability of 4R, or should it cost as much as the combined cost of the two and have the availability of the higher of the two? after all, you can select *anything* to be the telesma, so heck, as long as i'm gonna abuse the rules, i'll take a GMC banshee for 5,000 nuyen as well.


if you're dealing with a telesma that actually has a largely insignificant cost, not a problem really. a knife isn't expensive enough to worry about as a general rule. but if someone is buying a monofilament whip weapon focus, for example, you should definitely increase the cost appropriately. heck, i'd increase the cost in most cases; the person making the focus has to buy the telesma to enchant, and that cost should realistically be passed on to the customer.

for most other focus costs, however, you should be fine. after all, that wood ring you use as a sustaining focus may technically be worth another nuyen or two, but it's a sufficiently minor cost that it's basically negligible.

[Ol' Scratch]

Irrelevant. You're not gaining the Ares Thunderstruck and a focus, you're getting a focus that just happens to look like an Ares Thunderstruck. They're completely separate things. If you want a Counterspelling Focus that also works as a Thunderstruck, you buy both. Weapon Foci are completely different; the weapon is the focus. You can't have a Weapon Focus that isn't the weapon, and you can't use them separately.

[Yerameyahu]

Well, can't your gun be a Club focus? In any case, there's no good reason not to pay for the telesma, *whatever* it is. If it's unicorn bone, you have to get ahold of it somehow.

[Jaid]

Irrelevant. You're not gaining the Ares Thunderstruck and a focus, you're getting a focus that just happens to look like an Ares Thunderstruck. They're completely separate things. If you want a Counterspelling Focus that also works as a Thunderstruck, you buy both. Weapon Foci are completely different; the weapon is the focus. You can't have a Weapon Focus that isn't the weapon, and you can't use them separately.

so i get an ares thunderstruck enchanted to bash things over the head with. same situation.

you can choose whatever telesma you want for any kind of focus. if you choose an ares thunderstruck, it doesn't just look like an ares thunderstruck, it IS an ares thunderstruck. if you choose a maxed-out commlink, it doesn't *look* like a maxed-out commlink, it IS a maxed-out commlink.

you can enchant anything you wish to be a focus, you just need to have the formula for that form of focus.