[X] My Assistant

[chinagreenelvis]

Quickening: A magician who has learned this power can manipulate her sustained spells so that they sustain themselves, rather than relying on the magician for power. The magician must cast the sustained spell normally. While sustaining the spell, she takes a Complex Action and spends 1 Karma point per point of Force. The spell will then sustain itself indefinitely. Spells sustained in this manner are still active and may be tracked back to the magician, but they do not inflict a dice pool modifier for sustaining. Quickened spells add extra dice equal to the Karma used to quicken them for any tests they must make, including against dispelling (an initiate may even spend extra Karma on a quickened spell—up to the Force extra—to make it harder to defeat). If a quickened spell is disrupted (such as losing to an astral barrier), the spell will end. The magician can also end the spell at any time as long as she can astrally perceive it. Regardless, when a quickened spell ends it is irrevocable and the magician’s Karma points spent to quicken it are lost. The initiate is automatically aware if a quickened spell is dispelled or otherwise ended.

Expenditure of 1 Karma for every point of force for the self-sustainment of a single spell? Total crap.

Most spells are downright worthless unless they're cast at force 4 or higher. Who in their right mind is going to permanently expend 4 or more points of Karma just to avoid a -2 dice pool penalty? At that kind of price, this would be rationally used once or twice in the entire course of a character's lifetime. It would have to be reserved for the most awesome kick-ass spell that would hopefully last over many, many game sessions - in which case you could wind up spending almost as much karma as it cost just to get the damned metamagic in the first place. Seems like a waste of an initiation grade on something that could be a lot more fun if able to be used on a regular basis. Surely there must be a better way of regulating it?

Discuss.

[Demerzel]

Horses, pay good money to buy them hay and they just give you crap.

[Summerstorm]

While it is VERY, VERY... VEEEERY costly i regard it as one of the best metamagics.

First: You can make enchantments for/on OTHER people. If you are rich enough (and legal enough) you can get some quickened spell cast on you. For example you could get anchored reflexes (which work as wired ones without ANY loss of ANYTHING but money) or a permanent boost to attributes, shieldings, etc.

Second: if you cram them full of extra-karma they are pretty much indistructable. If you have a Force 6 spell with 6 extra karma it throws 18 dice to defend against counterspelling. And you could overcast it surely even harder without much problems.

Overall: Yes, one spell can easily cost as much karma as an familar (Ally Spirit) but rich, mundane people will always pay a lot for magical powers.

[Piersdrach]

I like Quickening. I guess it depends on 'how you play' whether or not quickening will be useful.

Combat Sense,, Increased Attribute, Increased Reflexes, Agony.... the list goes on. Again it depends on how you play that determines alot about what is useful.

[Mordinvan]

While it is VERY, VERY... VEEEERY costly i regard it as one of the best metamagics.

First: You can make enchantments for/on OTHER people. If you are rich enough (and legal enough) you can get some quickened spell cast on you. For example you could get anchored reflexes (which work as wired ones without ANY loss of ANYTHING but money) or a permanent boost to attributes, shieldings, etc.

Which are disrupted your first trip through a warded area, which according to many on dump shock pretty much permeate the known universe. So that high class hotel you like? Warded. That wonderful doctor? Warded. Your Lawyer's office? Warded. Your Favorite clothing store? Warded.

Second: if you cram them full of extra-karma they are pretty much indistructable. If you have a Force 6 spell with 6 extra karma it throws 18 dice to defend against counterspelling. And you could overcast it surely even harder without much problems.

How much money do you think it costs to have an already karma starved mage cast that on you? They are making good money working for the corp anyway, and are not going to sacrifice the advancement of almost a complete grade of initiation just so you can have improved reflexes spell cast an your pampered behind.

Overall: Yes, one spell can easily cost as much karma as an familar (Ally Spirit) but rich, mundane people will always pay a lot for magical powers.

Now find a mage willing to sacrifice the amount of karma needed to produce an ally spirit so a mundane can feel a little more confident about himself? I'm sorry, but the costs associated with this are absurdly high, and no mage would likely ever agree to pay them for someone else's benefit, especially when a single event such as travel on a suborbital, or exposure to the background count many people also insist permeates the planet can and will destroy the spell, work, and karma put into it.

[Caadium]

One thing that is being overlooked here is the fact that not all spells have to be cast on a person (that may or may not run into wards and such).

You can use quickening to create some nasty permanent wards, illusions, etc. Think of it like the movie, "The Shadow" when they realize that the entire hotel has been hidden.

[Wasabi]

A force 1 quickened Spatial Sense is a great way to tell if there is a ward nearby.
(as the spatial sense has to beat the ward and at F1 it will consistently show a blank on the mental map.

That trick is great for anyone with quickened spells so they can tell when they may need to penetrate a ward before they do so.

Edge should always be used to uncap hits on something that may be quickened.

[Demerzel]

Which are disrupted your first trip through a warded area, which according to many on dump shock pretty much permeate the known universe. So that high class hotel you like? Warded. That wonderful doctor? Warded. Your Lawyer's office? Warded. Your Favorite clothing store? Warded.

Quickening may be used on any sustained spell, not all of which must be targeted at a moving object that may pass a barrier. Want an AoE Orgy in that room forever, no prob, a few Karma and you're in business.

How much money do you think it costs to have an already karma starved mage cast that on you? They are making good money working for the corp anyway, and are not going to sacrifice the advancement of almost a complete grade of initiation just so you can have improved reflexes spell cast an your pampered behind.

Now find a mage willing to sacrifice the amount of karma needed to produce an ally spirit so a mundane can feel a little more confident about himself? I'm sorry, but the costs associated with this are absurdly high, and no mage would likely ever agree to pay them for someone else's benefit, especially when a single event such as travel on a suborbital, or exposure to the background count many people also insist permeates the planet can and will destroy the spell, work, and karma put into it.

People do mathematically idiotic things every day in real life (take the lottery for example). What makes the argument that it's not a good use of resources meaningful?

[Summerstorm]

Wards do not break your quickening... Your quickening breaks wards *g*. But true, only high level karma-enhanced ones of course.

And with the price: i would charge about 20.000 per Karma point maximum. But it is hard to pinpoint the costs. Maybe from 5.000 upwards, if someone REALLY likes you (You know the old, dying sorceror whose life you saved and wants to pass on some money before he dies).

So yes, people pay half a million for a super-spell. They also pay a million for some delta-move-by-wire, yes? Oh, make it more, a million is Wired Reflexes.

I had, for example in one of my campaigns one older gentleman, a CEO of a banking corporation. Who had a quickened spell cast on him, allowing him to feel if someone lies to him. He had it done, because he is rich and eccentric (he had a tick with truth). Hell, i wouldn't be surprised if people RESEARCH and design a spell exclusivly for one casting on one customer.

A Magician specializing in enchantments could invest time into magical goods (they costs just few karma to make) and his karma for quickening. I think it is a nice living he can make of it.

[Wasabi]

In some cases a focus, spirit, or even a character may be unintentionally forced into a situation where either they or the barrier must give. For example, a character who unknowingly walks through a mana barrier carrying an active focus, or a dual being in an elevator that passes through a ward on its way up. In this case, make the same Opposed Test described above (using Force x 2 for spells, spirits, foci, etc.). If the barrier wins, however, the item or entity still breaks through but is automatically disrupted. Disrupted spells immediately end and disrupted foci deactivate.

[Whipstitch]

Eh, I'm sure there's someone out there with a quickened Force 1 Orgasm and few regrets.

[Makki]

i'd quicken Force 1 Water Wall spells all over Africa because i'm a Magician without Borders! Ever lasting fountains that hurts a little...
other thought. what about a quickened Alter Temperature for my arctic research base?
A quickened Reinforce spell for even more armor and structure points on a vehicle of your choice, probably no problems with wards either..

[Mordinvan]

Eh, I'm sure there's someone out there with a quickened Force 1 Orgasm and few regrets.

Or not, put it in your guest bedroom, and take your partners there?

[Mordinvan]

People do mathematically idiotic things every day in real life (take the lottery for example). What makes the argument that it's not a good use of resources meaningful?

Its called cost benefit ratio. Even the lottery costs little to play. The amount of Karma needed to sustain the high force spells people were talking about, with the additional Karma costs needed to reinforce them. That is a quantity no mage would be to eager to part with, and the quantity of money they would demand in return would be one that no one would part with easily either.

[Wasabi]

Or not, put it in your guest bedroom, and take your partners there?

Two words: "Anchoring Focus"

;-)

[darthmord]

Never mind the fact that the spell can be tracked back to the mage...

[Grinder]

Minor details. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[chinagreenelvis]

I think that I would at the very least adjust the Karma cost to 1 for every 2 points of force. That seems more reasonable, given everything that has been laid out here. Right?

[augmentin]

I think that I would at the very least adjust the Karma cost to 1 for every 2 points of force. That seems more reasonable, given everything that has been laid out here. Right?

Doubt it'll ever happen. It's been part of the mechanic since at least SR2.

[Piersdrach]

Its called cost benefit ratio. Even the lottery costs little to play. The amount of Karma needed to sustain the high force spells people were talking about, with the additional Karma costs needed to reinforce them. That is a quantity no mage would be to eager to part with, and the quantity of money they would demand in return would be one that no one would part with easily either.

Except you are blurring the lines between "game reality"(used very loosely) with game mechanics.

[DireRadiant]

It's good to have choices in a game, especially choices that are not all equivalent. Gives options for all players, each of whom are different.

I have had players that use quickening, and some that don't. It would be a boring game without those choices.

Also keep in mind some options are great for NPCs. Nothing like a recurring opponent obtaining magical powers to get the PCs thinking.

[Dr.Rockso]

It's good to have choices in a game, especially choices that are not all equivalent. Gives options for all players, each of whom are different.

I have had players that use quickening, and some that don't. It would be a boring game without those choices.

Also keep in mind some options are great for NPCs. Nothing like a recurring opponent obtaining magical powers to get the PCs thinking.

This

[Ol' Scratch]

The only time Quickening isn't a liability for shadowrunners is if the GM completely ignores everything about the magical side of the game world. Background counts, wards, dual-natured security critters, uppity spirits, astral perceivers, and so on and so forth will make walking around with a permanent, uncontrollable spell and signature tied to you a nightmare. It's not even about a GM focusing on you for having it, it's just a fact of the game world. It's a horrible, horrible metamagic technique for any kind of criminal. Not just for the repercussions of having a permanent spell active for all to see, but because at any time it can go 'pop' and you lose all the Karma you poured into it seemingly for no reason whatsoever.

If you could activate and deactivate it on a whim, like tapping a tattoo or something, then it'd be a very viable technique to know and use. But one major ward or a hefty background count, and you're screwed.

The only characters that would benefit from it (by reducing the crippling effects) would be those who already suffer all those problems, like Ghouls, Shapeshifters, or other dual-natured beings. You may as well go all out at that point since you'll need/want to avoid background counts and just fight your way through wards if you don't have Masking and Extended Masking anyway.

I honestly suggest approaching your GM (assuming you're not the GM) and asking for some means of deactivating/reactivating them along the lines of foci.

[Lanlaorn]

If you could activate and deactivate it on a whim, like tapping a tattoo or something, then it'd be a very viable technique to know and use. But one major ward or a hefty background count, and you're screwed.

You've described a sustaining focus (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Considering the "up front" karma cost of wasting an initiation on Quickening you'd even have to cast a few quickened spells before even matching the karma price of the equivalent foci.

[Ol' Scratch]

No, I didn't just describe a sustaining focus. The biggest benefit of Quickening is having it placed on other people; to pay someone to have a spell quickened on you. And at only 2 Karma per Force, no, you're not getting some huge bargain. One pop-and-renew and you've matched its cost, but are still nowhere near its benefits when used solely on yourself. (Nevermind that sustaining foci are versatile, allowing you to sustain entire categories of spells without any additional cost.)