Does psychology change that much in 50 yrs? Options

[blackwulf]

I feel like putting a cat among the pigeons, so I have to ask, Does anyone else suspect that humans no matter what the advantage are not normally going to have there limbs hacked off or the eyes scooped out? I mean every operation aver performed has x failures, I can see it now, I am sorry sir but your system does not tolerate cybereyes I am sorry but the waiver you signed makes us free of responsibility oh we keep the money but here is a seeing eye gerbil. From a street doc it would be oops better break him for parts. Opinions?

[Yerameyahu]

These things would certainly begin as replacements for lost or damaged parts, and it's not really 'normals' who are chroming out. It's crazy criminals, and the people who fight them.

[BlueMax]

I feel like putting a cat among the pigeons, so I have to ask, Does anyone else suspect that humans no matter what the advantage are not normally going to have there limbs hacked off or the eyes scooped out? I mean every operation aver performed has x failures, I can see it now, I am sorry sir but your system does not tolerate cybereyes I am sorry but the waiver you signed makes us free of responsibility oh we keep the money but here is a seeing eye gerbil. From a street doc it would be oops better break him for parts. Opinions?

Your thinking about the stable and sane, yes?
About a society that has norms, rights and cares, yes?
About educated and mature individuals, yes?

Now throw that all away.
Think about the addicted and downtrodden.
Think about a society without support for its members, without rights, without any real government.
Think about 13 year olds who are out on their own in the Barrens trying to get by and who their idles may be.

Psychology never changes, society does.

BlueMax

[Doc Chase]

Life is cheap; surgery is easy. People who need the edge are going to get the operations - hell, most stuff is outpatient in the 70's. Are most people going to shy away from body mods? Probably, though the people who normally go in for plastic surgery may be the ones that go a little farther. People who need performance enhancers are going to be driven to it. People who lose limbs - well, that's pretty obvious there.

If your corp is going to foot the bill and it's been 'strongly' suggested that you will get promoted for installing a cyberware piece - well, you're probably going to do it. Body mods are so prevalent in 2070's society that yeah, the psychology of homo sapiens isn't going to view it with the distrust we do now.

[Lanlaorn]

This is not going to only be people who "need the edge" or people who are pressured into it, etc.

Are you guys familiar with how modern laser eye surgery works? They literally cut a flap of eyeball, flip that up, let the laser carve a lens into your eye and then let that heal. They are scarring your lens prescription into your eyes by burning away parts of it. And there are, as always, cases where it goes wrong.

And yet it's a casual operation that people constantly get and the vast majority of them have no problems whatsoever.

I wouldn't get a cyberlimb because even the synthetic ones are obviously false to the touch, according to the rulebook, and I'm a fan of flesh on flesh contact (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Eyes? Maybe, I wouldn't be able to tell the difference and it'd be strictly superior. Ears? Definitely, what do I care how my inner ear works.

Any other internal thing like commlinks, sim modules, etc. I wouldn't even question. I don't care what my bones are made of and I don't think anyone else does either. Not only is there a precedent with knee and hip replacement surgery but just do a thought experiment: if every bone in your hand was metal instead of bone and you couldn't notice the difference besides them being harder to break, would you care? I sure wouldn't.

[Doc Chase]

Quite familiar with eye surgery. Burnt eye smells...different.

[Yerameyahu]

Obviously, it's a cultural acclimation process. No one gets elective heart replacement, but, yes, they get corneal correction. Replacing that eye with a machine? That's a lot harder sell, and one that the world has to very slowly get used to, just as the technology gets better and better.

The whole question is a no brainer. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

Obviously, it's a cultural acclimation process. No one gets elective heart replacement, but, yes, they get corneal correction. Replacing that eye with a machine? That's a lot harder sell, and one that the world has to very slowly get used to, just as the technology gets better and better.

The whole question is a no brainer. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

It depends on the kind of people you ask and how you ask.
I'm majoring in Computer Sciences, there is a class calle "History and Future of Computer Sciences". Half the class wear glasses, including the teacher. He asked us if it was possible to change our eyes for cybernetic ones who could have imaging scope, low-light vision, image link, etc. who would change them.
Only me and 3 more in class raised hands. Then he added, the fact that you do this, gives you an edge against other people and this could aventually lead to better jobs, promotions etc. Only 3 people did not raise their hands.

Me? Give a pair of cybereyes and a sleep regulator and I'll be a happy man (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

Right, different people are different. But that's already factored in. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[nezumi]

Does anyone else suspect that humans no matter what the advantage are not normally going to have there limbs hacked off or the eyes scooped out?

1) And upon this theory we build the basis of cyberpunk - the psychological trauma of replacing your natural flesh with unyielding chrome. CP2020 represented this with cyberpsychosis. In Shadowrun, it's represented by essence, the fact that most cyberware is so sleek it's nearly undetectable, and by the average population having an essence value of 5 (with the only truly common cyberware, datajacks, being an absolute requirement of doing business).

2) It's absolute bunk. Turn back the clock and ask people, 'how many of you would voluntarily get the tip of your willy nicked off/punch holes your ears, nose, etc./ink yourself/walk around in public in your underwear/go hurtling through the air at a few hundred miles an hour/etc. The difference being, unlike most of those things, cyberware has a quantifiable advantage. If you ask people with cochlear implants if that was really a choice, I'll wager most would say no - minor cyberware implants is an easy price to pay for the advantage of hearing. Similarly, an easy price for the advantage of low-light vision, or jumping over cars, or just flashing some chrome.

Not only will culture change, culture already is changing. It's just creeping up (thanks to the steep price of medical technology) slow enough that you're not noticing it.


What is really interesting is that most people who are getting these implants (cochlear implants and a brain implant whose function I've forgotten being the most significant and common) do not generally consider these 'foreign bodies' changing how they behave. It becomes part of you. Your ego is robust enough to happily accept silicon as part of its self-identity. Sure the idea of the SURGERY might be freaky, but the surgery is short.

[Dumori]

It depends on the kind of people you ask and how you ask.
I'm majoring in Computer Sciences, there is a class calle "History and Future of Computer Sciences". Half the class wear glasses, including the teacher. He asked us if it was possible to change our eyes for cybernetic ones who could have imaging scope, low-light vision, image link, etc. who would change them.
Only me and 3 more in class raised hands. Then he added, the fact that you do this, gives you an edge against other people and this could aventually lead to better jobs, promotions etc. Only 3 people did not raise their hands.

Me? Give a pair of cybereyes and a sleep regulator and I'll be a happy man (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

Oh a sleep regulator how I need you. It would make insomnia easier to cope with. At least I wouldt start going wacky at 50-60 hours sleep dep tit would be closer to 100+

[JohnNoSIN]

Quite familiar with eye surgery. Burnt eye smells...different.

thinking LASIK. also no OSHA so people are more likely to loose bits in general. no real traffic control, lots of weapons available to five-year olds, and the need to get at least some implants for any normal job such as skillwires. I also think most objections to implants are goiing away as soon as cereberal boosters and nmenonic enhancers come onto the market. thzt said, you make a good point. I dont see hacking off my legs just so I can get the latest raptor feet mod. chemeleon cloak dermal sheathing might be worth it.

[Ed_209a]

The sleep regulator is an excellent example. I want one too!

I think stuff that is discreet will be accepted much sooner and easier than things like chrome limbs. Things we can hide from others, we also hide from ourselves. This is especially true of things that don't remove parts of us, but just cram more stuff inside. The Datajack is a perfect example.

[Critias]

Does anyone else suspect that humans no matter what the advantage are not normally going to have there limbs hacked off or the eyes scooped out? I mean every operation aver performed has x failures...

Ever seen the number of people getting cosmetic surgery, in real life, to look a little younger? The number of people taking laser beams to their eyes, just to avoid having to wear glasses? The number of people getting gutted like a trout, having their digestive tract modified, then getting sewn up, because they can't/won't stick to a diet? The number of people getting stabbed and injected with ink over and over again just to draw a pretty design on their skin?

Never underestimate the capacity for humans to do silly things with their bodies for no good reason. Tack on a good reason -- quantifiable benefits to your strength, your overall health, your ability to perform tasks that are important to your everyday survival and ability to do your job -- and the sky's the limit.

[Draco18s]

There are a few stories on 365 Tomorrows that I'd love to point out, if I could find them.

One had a paralyzed athlete insistent on getting a full cybernetic body in order to get back out and competing as soon as possible. The doctor threw her an orange and she caught it. After the surgery he tossed her another, she crushed it into a pulp and only then realized what she'd done.

Another one about the discrimination against cybernetics in the Olympics and the main character having a cyberleg because of an accident with a large saw and having to keep it a secret at work because of the fear that the cyber-enhanced would steal all of their jobs.

Another about a girl picking out a replacement arm and wanting a "combat ready" one and the street doc advising against it because "It'd be illegal. It'd be picked up at every security checkpoint, airplanes, banks, everwhere, and having that arm would be like owning a gun that you're not registered to have, permanently attached to your body. Your future would be the streets; you're too smart, too well off to want that."

[Adarael]

Edit: Critias largely beat me to this post...


There are about 6.5 million automobile accidents in the USA every year, with 35,000 of them being fatalities. Yet we still drive. What's more, every 5 kph of excess speed above the limit roughly doubles your chances for an accident. So in a 60 kph zone, 65 is about 4%, 70 is 8%, 75 is 12%, etc. Yet I still speed. Why? Because when risk is low enough, people will do things that are mathematically irrational.

Witness plastic surgery and the dangers therin. With the advances in medical technology by 2070, the dangers for basic cyber implantation are about on par with current day plastic surgery, if not lower. And what's more, having access to Type 0 cloned parts means that the final risk for any operation is so low as to be negligable. If you're a SINner, your medical insurance will cover clonal parts. Why? It's cheaper than breeding a new worker, and less time-consuming.

[Ascalaphus]

The more the body is studied, the more we can describe and understand and feel about it as a machine - a vehicle for our personality. And when a vehicle gets outdated, or its performance isn't all it could be, you upgrade.

For another example of fairly invasive elective surgery, consider sex change operations.



Cybereyes? Well, my eyesight isn't all it could be, so I'd think about it. AR? Very nice. Playback of things I've seen? Data mining things I've seen? Nice indeed.

Cyberears? My hearing definitely could use an upgrade. Also, no more worries about hearing damage at concerts. Please add in easily-searchable playback and I'll never be embarrassed again for forgetting someone's name or what we talked about last.

Sleep regulator: likely one of the most popular implants in the industrialized world.

Dietware: for about 2500 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) you will never fear being overweight anymore. If you compute the long-term savings in health care this might net you, that alone should justify it. But simply guiaranteeing an ideal weight will probably make this the other most-popular implant.

Cybersafety: the certainty that your kid won't accidentally shoot himself with your gun? That's worth surgery. Also, it might save your life if someone pickpockets your gun or wrestles it from your grasp.

Cerebral booster: an implant that increases your IQ by about 20-60? What could that do to your career?

[blackwulf]

I will throw in thought that the mental trauma of losing a limb is massive. A friend of mine as needed to scratch an itch on his right leg since 1993. It does give a certian amount of problems when you realize he lost it to an incoming shell in 93. On the other side how many people would take cyber eyes if it had 5 or 10% chance of leaving you blind? that is why the question occured to me.

[Draco18s]

Cybereyes? Well, my eyesight isn't all it could be, so I'd think about it. AR? Very nice. Playback of things I've seen? Data mining things I've seen? Nice indeed.
Cyberears? My hearing definitely could use an upgrade. Also, no more worries about hearing damage at concerts. Please add in easily-searchable playback and I'll never be embarrassed again for forgetting someone's name or what we talked about last.
Sleep regulator: likely one of the most popular implants in the industrialized world.
Dietware: for about 2500 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) you will never fear being overweight anymore. If you compute the long-term savings in health care this might net you, that alone should justify it. But simply guiaranteeing an ideal weight will probably make this the other most-popular implant.
Cybersafety: the certainty that your kid won't accidentally shoot himself with your gun? That's worth surgery. Also, it might save your life if someone pickpockets your gun or wrestles it from your grasp.
Cerebral booster: an implant that increases your IQ by about 20-60? What could that do to your career?

Eyes: Later in life, maybe.
AR: yes. I'd do contacts or glasses
Ears: no
Sleep: probably yes.
Diet: no
Safety: no
Cerebral booster: no. 20-60 points would put me off the charts, I'm already not-using the smarts I have (I need something that makes me not lazy).

[LurkerOutThere]

Actually frankly I see it going the exact oposite of the way the OP suggests especially by 2070. I forsee those unmodded being the wierd abnormality outside of those who are magically active. If you give people the option to be stronger, smarter, more employable, more attractive etc etc they will jump on it. But one of the legacies from cyberpunk is that even in a far future setting where most cyberware can be done outpatient getting cybered is "wierd" it's also completely bs that they havn't gotten a real feeling cyberlimb yet. Human skin isn't that complex.

More cyberhate in Magicrun, woo!

[Doc Chase]

thinking LASIK.

Mmm hm. LASIK is a laser beam that sears the eye. You're awake for the procedure.

And you can smell it.

[Draco18s]

Mmm hm. LASIK is a laser beam that sears the eye. You're awake for the procedure.

And you can smell it.

Laser eye surgery still scares me. Hell, I went under to have my wisdom teeth removed.

[Doc Chase]

Those I know who have had the procedure done haven't had that particular option. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[nezumi]

The more the body is studied, the more we can describe and understand and feel about it as a machine - a vehicle for our personality. And when a vehicle gets outdated, or its performance isn't all it could be, you upgrade.

The more our body is studied, the more we realize dualism is a false premise. Altering your body is in fact altering you, your personality. That is more of a concern to me than what blackwulf brought up. If I have a device that lets me see through time or whatnot, that fundamentally changes who I am on the inside (even if only slightly).

I will throw in thought that the mental trauma of losing a limb is massive. A friend of mine as needed to scratch an itch on his right leg since 1993. It does give a certian amount of problems when you realize he lost it to an incoming shell in 93. On the other side how many people would take cyber eyes if it had 5 or 10% chance of leaving you blind? that is why the question occured to me.

The mental trauma of losing a limb is massive. The mental trauma of having a limb changed cosmetically is not - and replacing an organic limb with a cyber one, as far as your brain is concerned, is indeed primarily cosmetic. As for the 5-10% chance of leaving you blind... You must be playing a different game. The rules don't even account for that possibility of catastrophic failure. By the time of Shadowrun, both of those concerns are erased. The only time you'll be facing those sorts of penalties is when you're using something still undergoing testing. It's a fringe case, and not really worth discussing.

[Doc Chase]

The mental trauma of losing a limb is massive. The mental trauma of having a limb changed cosmetically is not - and replacing an organic limb with a cyber one, as far as your brain is concerned, is indeed primarily cosmetic. As for the 5-10% chance of leaving you blind... You must be playing a different game. The rules don't even account for that possibility of catastrophic failure. By the time of Shadowrun, both of those concerns are erased. The only time you'll be facing those sorts of penalties is when you're using something still undergoing testing. It's a fringe case, and not really worth discussing.

Mhm. When you have nanotech establishing and maintaining the neural connections from meat to machine, biological hardware cultured from your own cells, and 'Type O' organs that anyone can utilize without fear of rejection, well, the only risk of blindness or complication is from a poor doctor and a crappy surgical drone. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)