RL: APDS ammo for pistols, For all of those that say it unrealistic Options

[Sengir]

Ah I do remember something about someone trying to ban sharp point kitchen knives after the gun bans over in the EU.

IIRC it was briefly discussed in the UK after a doctors' association called for it, but the idea failed to get political support and was shelved.

What followed was the usual reaction when a politician somewhere in the world makes a weird proposal, no matter how insignificant the guy is, or how broadly the idea was ignored: Several weeks later a commentator somewhere else in the world stumbles upon the story, writes a "look what looney law they are trying to pass today" story, the story quickly goes viral because it fits a preconceived notion of country X, and sooner or later the story evolves into "look what looney law has been passed today" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)


PS @Dumori: The German law bans carrying two kinds of knives:
- knives which can be opened with one hand and have a locking blade (for example...box cutters)
- fixed blades of more than 12cm length

There's also a general ban on OTF knives, nunchucks and a long list of other stuff, with an equally long list of exceptions (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Shinobi Killfist]

Here in California a lot of "gang" weapons get banned. Switchblades, butterfly knives, shuriken(ninja movies) all not because of the danger but the image associated with them. Heck for a long time it was easier to get a gun than a taser, laws don't make sense in many cases.

[MortVent]

I live in Ga... I go to walmart and get a 12 guage. It defeats 90%+ of the body armor available...

And with a sabot slug it has decent range too...

[Daylen]

and dirt cheap!

[KarmaInferno]

Heh. The first time many folks ever saw "APDS" rounds was in that movie Alien Nation, where a guy was using a shotgun loaded with APDS rounds. In a drum clip.

The movie kinda overstated their effect, though, having the rounds go through a steel engine block and blow open the chest of a cop hiding on the other side.



-np

[kzt]

Shotguns have a lot of energy, it's a lot more likely that you could make an effective AP round than you could out of a handgun.

[KarmaInferno]

How you get a shotgun to be armor piercing:

1. Got to gun store.

2. Buy slug rounds.

3. Shoot at body armor.

Ta-da!



-karma

[Snow_Fox]

if you ever get your hands on stuff (1) don't brag (2) don't waste it all on a target.

About a year ago I bought a RL PS90 carbine and 2 boxes of 5.7X28mm ammo. One box was normal but the other had blue tips and a higher charge 40 gr as opposed to 27gr. I havn't seen the higher charges since but at the range use the mosre commonly found lighter rounds.

[emouse]

yea there is. Don't vote for those who try to infringe upon individual rights, especially if they say its for the good of (insert a group here such as children).

So what you're saying is don't vote for anyone?

[Creel]

APDS doesn't mean "tungsten carbide cored", or "steel cored", which is what a real armor piercing round would be. APDS is "Armor Piercing Discarding Sabot", which basically means that the projectile is encased in another piece that flies out of the barrel of the weapon and is discarded while the projectile, which I guess is fin stabilized if I recall correctly, continues to fly to the target. It's like the sniper rifle in the first Halo. If you watched the firing animation closely you noticed something falling out of the barrel besides for the actual projectile.

So you could always get steel cored ammunition for your weapons, but that's not what SR APDS is. SR APDS is something ridiculous like a smaller diameter fin-stabilized pistol round that's been accelerated by coming out the barrel in an extra container. If someone did something that comically over engineered with a pistol in real life it would probably be so small and high velocity that it wouldn't cause very much trauma to a living target.


By the way, if you want to have solid object penetration from your pistol but don't want to pay ridiculous amounts of money for armor piercing rounds at a gun show, just go with 7.62 x 25 Tokarev. It has excellent penetration for a pistol cartridge. And it is really cheap. The only hard part is finding a pistol that fires it. But J&G Sales has one available right now!

The CZ-52 is a 7.62x25 pistol built on the Makarov frame. It's a lot of fun to shoot, and can be converted to 9mm with a quick barrel change for variety. I like to load it with .22 bullets in a .30cal discarding sabot. Very velocity for a pistol, and tons of fun.

[PBTHHHHT]

if you ever get your hands on stuff (1) don't brag (2) don't waste it all on a target.

About a year ago I bought a RL PS90 carbine and 2 boxes of 5.7X28mm ammo. One box was normal but the other had blue tips and a higher charge 40 gr as opposed to 27gr. I havn't seen the higher charges since but at the range use the mosre commonly found lighter rounds.

Cool, I shoot a few rounds on the PS90 awhile back, and enjoyed. What stopped me from buying one was the ammo cost and also the barrel length (something about the extension to make it legal rifle length always bugged me, the mp-5 carbine I have has the fake suppressor extension rather than just a long barrel) and instead I bought the FS2000 instead. Plus, yeah, the FS fires rifle rounds so less worries about any penetration.

[Snow_Fox]

I don't mind the longer barrell, it means it's more acurate. sure it would be cool to look just like the weapon from GitS but it's RL and I like accurate.

Over engineered by the nice guys at FN it's a wonderful example for SR of someone customizing a weapon so far that it is a great gun but horribly expensive. Designed as a carbine for tankers should they have to bail out the guys at FN kept overengineering it until the list price is over $1k each, for a back up weapon that will hopefully never be used, that's more than a front line rifle for an infantry man. The weapons are popular with specfocres but it never made it to the tankers.

[kzt]

Cool, I shoot a few rounds on the PS90 awhile back, and enjoyed. What stopped me from buying one was the ammo cost and also the barrel length (something about the extension to make it legal rifle length always bugged me, the mp-5 carbine I have has the fake suppressor extension rather than just a long barrel) and instead I bought the FS2000 instead. Plus, yeah, the FS fires rifle rounds so less worries about any penetration.

It's only $200 to get the permit to cut the barrel off...

[Daylen]

It's only $200 to get the permit to cut the barrel off...

and for the same price I think ya can have a real suppressor to save your ears.

[Daylen]

So what you're saying is don't vote for anyone?

No I'm saying don't put up with bullshit excuses that are used for taking away individual human rights. When a politician shows he is against individual liberty vote the bum out. When its all bums try helping someone who is not a bum (or has the potential to be a nonbum) get in office.

And yes I'm saying when anyone uses children as a scapegoat for taking away constitutionally protected (or really any other rights as well) rights they need to be ousted from office or any govt position.

[Daylen]

Yeah! What have children ever done for us?

nice sarcastic example of the strawman argument I am speaking about.

[Johnny Hammersti...]

Does this frustration against politicians who limit our freedoms carry over to the war on terror/patriot act or is it just guns?

I'm with you basically re: those who try to limit our freedoms, but I'm more concerned with privacy, speech and religion.

[Method]

Just a friendly reminder that discussions of real world politics are against the ToS, since they tend to degenerate into heated (and unfriendly) debates. Please stick to discussing SR.

[Johnny Hammersti...]

my bad. So er, spirits and stick n shock, what do ya think?

[Daylen]

Does this frustration against politicians who limit our freedoms carry over to the war on terror/patriot act or is it just guns?

of course. all are important.

[Daylen]

oops shouldn't let pages sit so long. comment no more I shall.

[Wounded Ronin]

my bad. So er, spirits and stick n shock, what do ya think?

This is what I think would happen if you got hit with stick and shock:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6zBjYIyz-0...feature=related

[Wounded Ronin]

So i guess you didn't read the article i linked to at all.
Becouse 6.5x25mm CBJ really is a APDS pistol round for 9mm pistols/SMG:s.

Oh and that condesending tone is really not needed.

Real quickly here, since I am going to bed, quick definition from Wikipedia of APDS: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/APDS

The sabot of a large calibre APDS consists of a light high strength alloy full diameter pot and base unit, which is screwed together. The front part of the pot has 3-4 petals (sabots) which are covered with a centering band (often a nylon derivative). The rear half has a rubber obturator and driving band (again nylon) held in place by the screw-in base unit. The base unit, if a tracer element is attached to the sub-projectile, has a hole located at the centre. Before firing, the sub-projectile and sabot are locked together. Due to the high setback forces, friction between the pot and sub-projectile allows spin to be transferred, so stabilising the sub-projectile. Small/medium calibre APDS use a lightweight high strength alloy base pot and three or more plastic petals. To transfer the spin to the core in small/medium calibre weapons, the core tends to have a notch at its base. Under bore acceleration, which can be higher than 100,000 g, the uneven base is forced into the softer pot material, locking the sub-projectile to the pot and imparting spin. Not all small/medium calibre APDS rely on this technique, another method for spin coupling is by using the forward plastic petals. The petals are of a slightly larger diameter than the lands in the rifled bore. This forces the petals tightly against the core, increasing the friction between them and allowing the spin to be transferred.
...
When a large calibre APDS is fired and while still within the bore, the setback forces shear the forward petals, partly unlocking the sub-projectile from the sabot, but still holding it rigidly within the pot. Gas pressure is used to delay the unlocking of the pins holding the rear part of the sub-projectile by gyroscopic forces. Once outside the barrel, the pins, centering band and forward petals are released or discarded by projectile spin, the aerodynamic drag removes the pot/base unit. As an APDS sub-projectile does not require driving bands and the core is supported at the base and ogive region, a far more aerodynamic projectile shape can be chosen. This, in combination with the sub-projectiles’ higher sectional density, gives the resulting sub-projectile vastly reduced aerodynamic drag in comparison to the APCR. Both the higher initial velocity and the reduced drag result in high terminal velocity at impact. This also lowers flight time and improves accuracy. Accuracy can suffer if there are unwanted sabot/sub-projectile interactions during discard.

Are you telling me that all that stuff was covered in the article you linked to as being part of the cartridge in question? I mean, maybe it was, but I don't remember having read all of that in the original article.


If you don't want a "condescending tone" then don't read it back to yourself in a condescending tone. Read it in a nice friendly and genial tone. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Mäx]

Real quickly here, since I am going to bed, quick definition from Wikipedia of APDS: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/APDS
Are you telling me that all that stuff was covered in the article you linked to as being part of the cartridge in question? I mean, maybe it was, but I don't remember having read all of that in the original article.

So your saying that becouse all of that wasn't mentioned in a short block post(longer article in the subject is linked at bottom) a round concisting of a armor piercing sub-munition surrounded by a larger disgarding sabot isn't an APDS round, i'm pretty sure that covered all parts of the name APDS. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)
Ofcource its not officially called that becouse the manufacturer doesn't even call it a AP round saying that is just a bonus attribute, whichs is kinda hilarious when you see what it does to an armor.

[SkepticInc]

This is what I think would happen if you got hit with stick and shock:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6zBjYIyz-0...feature=related

You end up in a crappy music video?