[X] My Assistant

[Shinobi Killfist]

You end up in a crappy music video?

Sometimes I forget how Awesul the early 80's were.

[Wounded Ronin]

So your saying that becouse all of that wasn't mentioned in a short block post(longer article in the subject is linked at bottom) a round concisting of a armor piercing sub-munition surrounded by a larger disgarding sabot isn't an APDS round, i'm pretty sure that covered all parts of the name APDS. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)
Ofcource its not officially called that becouse the manufacturer doesn't even call it a AP round saying that is just a bonus attribute, whichs is kinda hilarious when you see what it does to an armor.

But as I understand it, it's NOT technically APDS. I remember asking a firearms instructor maybe 7 years ago if anyone made APDS for small arms since at that time I played Shadowrun but was just a novice at shooting. He explained to me how while there were a few attempts to do something resembling APDS with a sub munition that these designs were not very successful and that APDS was not technically the right way to refer to those.

Around the same time I asked a different instructor about APDS and he started talking about tanks.

So I don't think that design you're citing is either a "first" or truly APDS.

[Wounded Ronin]

You end up in a crappy music video?

That is what a deadly stun looks like.

[Doc Chase]

But as I understand it, it's NOT technically APDS. I remember asking a firearms instructor maybe 7 years ago if anyone made APDS for small arms since at that time I played Shadowrun but was just a novice at shooting. He explained to me how while there were a few attempts to do something resembling APDS with a sub munition that these designs were not very successful and that APDS was not technically the right way to refer to those.

Around the same time I asked a different instructor about APDS and he started talking about tanks.

So I don't think that design you're citing is either a "first" or truly APDS.

I disagree. By the wiki you posted a few posts back, this round fits the definition of a small/medium bore APDS round. It has a tungsten ball in a plastic sabot - the tungsten ball qualifies it as an armor piercing round, the plastic case is the discarding sabot. Consider that this round does actually punch through steel plate as evidenced by the article, and defeats up to Class IV armor. For what amounts to a 9mm round, that is beyond fantastic for penetration.

[KarmaInferno]

The term "APDS" in real life is usually reserved for vehicular weapon scale ammo.

The technically correct term for small-arms scale saboted rounds is SLAP, or Saboted Light Armor Penetrator, though only the .50 caliber version has seen any real use. The smaller 7.62 size was experimented with but dropped after several catastrophic failures with jamming and at least one case of the projectile exiting by punching a hole through the side of the barrel. Also, it was determined that smaller calibers did not gain enough extra penetration ability to be worth the extra cost and trouble.




-karma

[Doc Chase]

The term "APDS" in real life is usually reserved for vehicular weapon ammo.

The technically correct term for small arms scale saboted rounds is SLAP, or Saboted Light Armor Penetrator.




-karma

I'm shaking my fist at you right now. Technicalities!

[hobgoblin]

Sometimes I forget how Awesul the early 80's were.

mostly i miss the synth sounds, as unlike today, they added something extra rather then just being a electronic piano.

[Mäx]

But as I understand it, it's NOT technically APDS.

Maybe not by the most trict definition of the term, but definedly close enought that my point in the OP stands.
Maybe we just have to agree that the terms meaning has enlaeged in the 60 years time so that in 2070 it encompasses smallarm rounds like this too. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

[PBTHHHHT]

It's only $200 to get the permit to cut the barrel off...

Yup, but it's easier for the gunsmith to later cut with the fake suppressor portion after acquiring the short barrel license. My friend did that, and till one does get the license, the rifle just looks better with the fake suppressor on it.
I know, 200 dollars, but I'm saving up for a wedding so I have different priorities. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Wounded Ronin]

I'm shaking my fist at you right now. Technicalities!

Dude, you play role playing games. Technicalities are what it is all about.

[Shrike30]

How you get a shotgun to be armor piercing:
1. Got to gun store.
2. Buy slug rounds.
3. Shoot at body armor.

My recollection is that both type II and type IIIA armor are capable of stopping a shotgun slug. While there's a few kinds of shotgun slugs that are essentially entirely steel, significantly increasing their velocity and intended to damage or penetrate hard armor (type III/IV), your basic lead shotgun slug doesn't have enough energy delivered to a small enough area to punch through body armor.

[MortVent]

My recollection is that both type II and type IIIA armor are capable of stopping a shotgun slug. While there's a few kinds of shotgun slugs that are essentially entirely steel, significantly increasing their velocity and intended to damage or penetrate hard armor (type III/IV), your basic shotgun slug doesn't have enough energy delivered to a small enough area to punch through body armor.

It might not punch through, but trama plates or no. The armor just means you die without holes in your corpse.

But most sabot slugs will penetrate especially at closer ranges, but the hydrostatic shock regardless is going to be nasty

[Daylen]

It might not punch through, but trama plates or no. The armor just means you die without holes in your corpse.

But most sabot slugs will penetrate especially at closer ranges, but the hydrostatic shock regardless is going to be nasty

that's wrong in almost every way...

perhaps you should peruse and read thoroughly the below links.

http://www.chiefsupply.com/Law_Enforcement/Body_Armor

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballistic_vest

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blunt_trauma

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballistic_trauma

http://www.pinnaclearmor.com/body-armor/ballistic-chart/

[Daylen]

My recollection is that both type II and type IIIA armor are capable of stopping a shotgun slug. While there's a few kinds of shotgun slugs that are essentially entirely steel, significantly increasing their velocity and intended to damage or penetrate hard armor (type III/IV), your basic lead shotgun slug doesn't have enough energy delivered to a small enough area to punch through body armor.

But who's armor are you trying to penetrate?

1. someone who has to wear a ballistic vest every day all day?

2. SWAT or marines as they kick in your door?

3. the Bradley fighting vehicle that is being called to location because of the huge explosions?

4. the M1A2 main battle tank that you left behind after using but might come after you later?

5. the naval vessel that you shot at with the tank?

most of the time I'd hope to be shooting against someone wearing comfortable armor like #1 would have which would be no use against a slug. When marines kick in doors they have a good chance of having type 4 on, which can stop a 30-06 round which is impressive. And after that 50BMG's will look small. So yea shotguns are not a magic wand but they can do darn good against so many threats in so many ways and are so cheap. And really moving up to something like a 375H&H or 338Lapua is no fun in many ways.