Spellcasting While Shapeshifted, Can magicians spell cast while shapeshifted? Options

[Mordoth]

I did a search to try finding info on this topic, but most of the results were about shapeshifting, shapeshifters, etc, but I didn't find a discussion on spellcasting while shapeshifted.

I've read the Shadowrunner's Companion on Shapeshifters and Drakes. Both sections specifically state that Adept powers are available to the shapeshifter in either form. They also state that shapeshifters' 1 Magic doesn't confer the ability to cast spells, assense, astral project, conjure, etc, unless they also take the Magician (& etc) qualities. But I haven't seen mention about whether they will be able to cast while in their animal form or drake form. The spellcasting rules state that all a spellcaster needs to do is concentrate to cast a spell. Seems to me like you can concentrate just as well in either form. This is assuming of course no incantation, gesture type geasa have been taken.

So would a spellcaster be able to cast spells while in their animal or drake form? Or what about spellcasters who have used a shapeshifting critter form spell? (Which would require sustaining the spell and of course applying the modifier for sustaining.)

Thanks!

My first post.

[Lanlaorn]

The shapechange spell explicitly says that you can cast spells in the new form. I don't know about the others, however.

[Yerameyahu]

Definitely yes. Why wouldn't you be able to? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[MortVent]

since you don't need to speak or gesture to cast spells unless you have a geas for it, yes

Remember the guy giving you the evil eye across the street... could be reading your surface thoughts and thinks you should be ashamed of yourself for thinking of doing those things to that teenager in front of you...

[Mordoth]

My thoughts on it were that it shouldn't be a problem casting while shapeshifted. I am just returning to Shadowrun after a long absence (since 2nd Edition). Starting playing with a new group and asked the GM this question and he wasn't sure, so I thought I would ask the people on this forum.

PS...I think the guy staring at me from across the street is wondering if I can take him because I'm counterspelling his mind probe and he's not getting nothing from me! AND I might just shapeshift and eat him.

[Lansdren]

Based on the shapechange spell I would also concur that yes they can. Additionaly logic would say that a natural shifter would feel more comfortable and able in his other suit then a mage in a shifted spell form so why wouldnt the shifter get the skills he paid for.

Even a talking / singing geas shouldnt be a problem but now I have a image of that dog from futurama singin walking on sunshine to cast a spell

[Mordoth]

Based on the shapechange spell I would also concur that yes they can. Additionaly logic would say that a natural shifter would feel more comfortable and able in his other suit then a mage in a shifted spell form so why wouldnt the shifter get the skills he paid for.

Even a talking / singing geas shouldnt be a problem but now I have a image of that dog from futurama singin walking on sunshine to cast a spell

In the case of a Drake, they aren't capable of speech, although they can learn Dragon Speech if they have a teacher. In the case of animal shapeshifters, I'm not sure that they are capable of speech in their animal forms. Dancing I guess is relative, how about a tiger doing the macarana? or a drake? Interesting.

[Lansdren]

In the case of a Drake, they aren't capable of speech, although they can learn Dragon Speech if they have a teacher. In the case of animal shapeshifters, I'm not sure that they are capable of speech in their animal forms. Dancing I guess is relative, how about a tiger doing the macarana? or a drake? Interesting.

Speaking is a relative term, a drake cant speak like us but he can make noises.

I would put forward the idea that if the sounds are still supposed to be the words of a incantation then it counts. The limitation is in the body not the way he's casting.

[CeeJay]

I have another question (and I'm too lazy to open a new thread (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) )

How about adept powers? Do you still have access to them when shapshifted? Let's say I'm an adept and have Critical Strike (or even better Elemental Strike).
Can I still use this when I'm shapeshifted into a wolf for example and attack someone with my new wolf claws or when I bite someone? Personaly I would say yes..
And what about Imrpoved Attribute? Does it also improve my attribute when I shapeshift (via the spell)?

Just wondering...

-CJ

[CanRay]

Yes you can cast Spells while shapeshifted.

Just hope you don't have a Gaes for "Chanting in Latin" while you're in Lupine form, however. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Lansdren]

I have another question (and I'm too lazy to open a new thread (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) )

How about adept powers? Do you still have access to them when shapshifted? Let's say I'm an adept and have Critical Strike (or even better Elemental Strike).
Can I still use this when I'm shapeshifted into a wolf for example and attack someone with my new wolf claws or when I bite someone? Personaly I would say yes..
And what about Imrpoved Attribute? Does it also improve my attribute when I shapeshift (via the spell)?

Just wondering...

-CJ

YEs adept stuff crosses over very nicely for the most part, far less fidderly then the spell casting.

[sn0mm1s]

I have another question (and I'm too lazy to open a new thread (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) )

How about adept powers? Do you still have access to them when shapshifted? Let's say I'm an adept and have Critical Strike (or even better Elemental Strike).
Can I still use this when I'm shapeshifted into a wolf for example and attack someone with my new wolf claws or when I bite someone? Personaly I would say yes..
And what about Imrpoved Attribute? Does it also improve my attribute when I shapeshift (via the spell)?

Just wondering...

-CJ

Yes, but don't get Elemental Strike. It is a waste of adept points. You are better off casting Elemental Aura out of Street Magic because that adds DV to your attack along with the elemental effect. I made a mystic adept recently with 6 Magic (5 power points, 1 magic) that shifted into an Eagle. (Level 2 Improved Reflexes, Level 6 Critical Strike, and Heightened Concentration were the adept powers)

The eagle had 20/80 flight movement so as a melee character it was easy to close the distance. I had 3 level 2 sustaining focuses for Shapeshift and Elemental Aura and Improved Invisibility. I would overcast to make them Force 2 spells.

Base attack DV = 3P
+6 DV for critical strike.
+3 DV for martial arts.
+2 DV for whatever elemental aura you choose plus halving armor plus an elemental effect.

That is a minimum of 15DV with any successful attack at half armor.

[iategod]

Yes, but don't get Elemental Strike. It is a waste of adept points. You are better off casting Elemental Aura out of Street Magic because that adds DV to your attack along with the elemental effect. I made a mystic adept recently with 6 Magic (5 power points, 1 magic) that shifted into an Eagle. (Level 2 Improved Reflexes, Level 6 Critical Strike, and Heightened Concentration were the adept powers)

The eagle had 20/80 flight movement so as a melee character it was easy to close the distance. I had 3 level 2 sustaining focuses for Shapeshift and Elemental Aura and Improved Invisibility. I would overcast to make them Force 2 spells.

Base attack DV = 3P
+6 DV for critical strike.
+3 DV for martial arts.
+2 DV for whatever elemental aura you choose plus halving armor plus an elemental effect.

That is a minimum of 15DV with any successful attack at half armor.

don't you get -2 for each sustained spell?

And i wouldn't discount elemental attack, the secondary effects are really awesome sometimes. I have one with a sound elemental effect, every time i do damage more than the target's Will they start vomiting and can't attack for 3 rounds, not to mention it ignores armor, deafens them for 10 min, and double wound modifies for 10min. I tend to use my sustaining spells on defensive spell such as armor, deflection.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Yes, but don't get Elemental Strike. It is a waste of adept points. You are better off casting Elemental Aura out of Street Magic because that adds DV to your attack along with the elemental effect. I made a mystic adept recently with 6 Magic (5 power points, 1 magic) that shifted into an Eagle. (Level 2 Improved Reflexes, Level 6 Critical Strike, and Heightened Concentration were the adept powers)

The eagle had 20/80 flight movement so as a melee character it was easy to close the distance. I had 3 level 2 sustaining focuses for Shapeshift and Elemental Aura and Improved Invisibility. I would overcast to make them Force 2 spells.

Base attack DV = 3P
+6 DV for critical strike.
+3 DV for martial arts.
+2 DV for whatever elemental aura you choose plus halving armor plus an elemental effect.

That is a minimum of 15DV with any successful attack at half armor.

I would not let you use the Martial Art in Eagle Form, Sorry... I just have a hard time visualizing an Eagle performing Martial arts at all, let alone while flying... So... No... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Just Sayin'

Keep the Faith

[sn0mm1s]

don't you get -2 for each sustained spell?

And i wouldn't discount elemental attack, the secondary effects are really awesome sometimes. I have one with a sound elemental effect, every time i do damage more than the target's Will they start vomiting and can't attack for 3 rounds, not to mention it ignores armor, deafens them for 10 min, and double wound modifies for 10min. I tend to use my sustaining spells on defensive spell such as armor, deflection.

Yes, but a sustaining focus removes the penalty. I am not discounting the elemental attack. I am just saying don't use adept powers for it - use a spell for it. You can have Elemental Aura: Sound as a spell and it doesn't require Killing Hands as a prerequisite.

[sn0mm1s]

I would not let you use the Martial Art in Eagle Form, Sorry... I just have a hard time visualizing an Eagle performing Martial arts at all, let alone while flying... So... No... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Just Sayin'

Keep the Faith

Really? The Martial Arts rules are nonsensical to begin with. Would it be better if I was in kangaroo or bear form?

[iategod]

I have another question (and I'm too lazy to open a new thread (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) )

How about adept powers? Do you still have access to them when shapshifted? Let's say I'm an adept and have Critical Strike (or even better Elemental Strike).
Can I still use this when I'm shapeshifted into a wolf for example and attack someone with my new wolf claws or when I bite someone? Personaly I would say yes..
And what about Imrpoved Attribute? Does it also improve my attribute when I shapeshift (via the spell)?

Just wondering...

-CJ

In my experience, yes. Within reason. I mean ya can't use power throw if you shape change into an eagle, nimble fingers as a seal, or face sculpture. Although it really depends on the GM in the end. Critical strike is awesome for ya, at max crit strike it's like having an additional 12 str. I would consider penetrating strike, or elemental strike. Oh, and don't forget counterstrike. It's better than riposte.

[Cabral]

I made a mystic adept recently with 6 Magic (5 power points, 1 magic) that shifted into an Eagle.
...
I would overcast to make them Force 2 spells.

By my reading, that's not overcasting under 4A. I haven't checked the FAQ, but with 5 points of adept powers and 1 point of magical ability, you can cast up to Force 6 spells (overcast Force 12) but just have a dice pool of skill+1 (+ any modifiers) to cast with.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Really? The Martial Arts rules are nonsensical to begin with. Would it be better if I was in kangaroo or bear form?

No! Why do you persist in such nonsense? Martial Arts are formatted for metahuman forms, not animal forms... Show me an animal capable of performing any current martial art, AT ALL, and I might reconsider, but since you cannot, and I am sure that you know that you cannot, then abolutely not...

I mean Really... Sheesh... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Keep the Faith

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

By my reading, that's not overcasting under 4A. I haven't checked the FAQ, but with 5 points of adept powers and 1 point of magical ability, you can cast up to Force 6 spells (overcast Force 12) but just have a dice pool of skill+1 (+ any modifiers) to cast with.

This is indeed correct... By SR4A rules anyway... The FAQ sucks in this regard as it directly contradicts the book in this matter.

Keep the Faith

[DireRadiant]

No! Why do you persist in such nonsense? Martial Arts are formatted for metahuman forms, not animal forms... Show me an animal capable of performing any current martial art, AT ALL, and I might reconsider, but since you cannot, and I am sure that you know that you cannot, then abolutely not...

I mean Really... Sheesh... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Keep the Faith

Soooo... what about all the other skills? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Aren't they all also "formatted" for metahuman forms and brains?

What makes Sorcery ok to work shapeshifted, but not Unarmed Combat?

[CanRay]

Show me an animal capable of performing any current martial art, AT ALL

Show me an animal that's been able to learn a Marshal Art in the first place. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Show me an animal that's been able to learn a Marshal Art in the first place. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Exactly... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Keep the Faith

[CanRay]

Exactly... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Actually, I think the closest you can get for an animal that had a Martial Art was Private Wojtek. And I don't think the "Art of Carrying Ammunition" counts.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Soooo... what about all the other skills? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Aren't they all also "formatted" for metahuman forms and brains?

What makes Sorcery ok to work shapeshifted, but not Unarmed Combat?

Sorcery requires no gestures, speech or anything else for that matter... it is all in the mind... But I can guarantee you that an Eagle will not be allowed to make a Hardware Check in my game, nor a Computer check, or a Pistols Check, etc... Infiltration is okay though... it is obviously going to be skill dependant...

As for Unarmed Combat, that is okay... but martial arts are NOT the same as unarmed combat... they are something else entirely (as evidenced by the need to have an actual Positive Quality to be able to use it)... Joe Blow get Kung Fu Martial Art, Bear gets Unarmed Combat, and if Bear tries to perform a Martial art, he fails outright, it just will not work...

See... Joe Blow can perfrom mundane Unarmed Combat, or the more intensive Martial Art... Bear only gets Unarmed Combat...

I know that you know that Dire Radiant...

Keep the Faith