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 Spellcasting While Shapeshifted, Can magicians spell cast while shapeshifted? |
 Jul 9 2010, 04:39 PM
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#26
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Prime Runner Ascendant  Group: Members Posts: 17,568 Joined: 26-March 09 From: Aurora, Colorado Member No.: 17,022  |
QUOTE (CanRay @ Jul 9 2010, 10:36 AM)  Actually, I think the closest you can get for an animal that had a Martial Art was Private Wojtek. And I don't think the "Art of Carrying Ammunition" counts. Heheheh... Yeah, well there is that... and I would agree with you on that one... Keep the Faith |
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Jul 9 2010, 04:45 PM
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#27
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 250 Joined: 16-January 09 From: Nowhere near you... unless you happen to be near Cologne. Member No.: 16,776 |
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 9 2010, 06:39 PM) See... Joe Blow can perfrom mundane Unarmed Combat, or the more intensive Martial Art... Bear only gets Unarmed Combat... Ahh, come on now. Isn't there a Kung Fu style "Art of the Bear" for the poor beast? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) -CJ -Edit: Come to think of it: Kuma from Tekken likes to disagree with you (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) |
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Jul 9 2010, 04:47 PM
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#28
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Prime Runner Ascendant Group: Members Posts: 17,568 Joined: 26-March 09 From: Aurora, Colorado Member No.: 17,022 |
QUOTE (CeeJay @ Jul 9 2010, 10:45 AM) Ahh, come on now. Isn't there a Kung Fu style "Art of the Bear" for the poor beast? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) -CJ Yeah, Yeah... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif) Keep the Faith |
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Jul 9 2010, 05:04 PM
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#29
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 139 Joined: 7-June 10 Member No.: 18,672 |
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 9 2010, 04:31 PM) No! Why do you persist in such nonsense? Martial Arts are formatted for metahuman forms, not animal forms... Show me an animal capable of performing any current martial art, AT ALL, and I might reconsider, but since you cannot, and I am sure that you know that you cannot, then abolutely not... I mean Really... Sheesh... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif) Keep the Faith What bout martial arts that are made to mimic animals? Monkey Kung fu? Perhaps Wildcat... i would guess.... |
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Jul 9 2010, 05:05 PM
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#30
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 139 Joined: 7-June 10 Member No.: 18,672 |
QUOTE (CanRay @ Jul 9 2010, 04:33 PM) Show me an animal that's been able to learn a Marshal Art in the first place. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kRb06w_XPo |
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Jul 9 2010, 05:06 PM
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#31
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 158 Joined: 27-January 10 Member No.: 18,083 |
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 9 2010, 09:39 AM) Sorcery requires no gestures, speech or anything else for that matter... it is all in the mind... But I can guarantee you that an Eagle will not be allowed to make a Hardware Check in my game, nor a Computer check, or a Pistols Check, etc... Infiltration is okay though... it is obviously going to be skill dependant... As for Unarmed Combat, that is okay... but martial arts are NOT the same as unarmed combat... they are something else entirely (as evidenced by the need to have an actual Positive Quality to be able to use it)... Joe Blow get Kung Fu Martial Art, Bear gets Unarmed Combat, and if Bear tries to perform a Martial art, he fails outright, it just will not work... See... Joe Blow can perfrom mundane Unarmed Combat, or the more intensive Martial Art... Bear only gets Unarmed Combat... I know that you know that Dire Radiant... Keep the Faith So, let's say I shapeshift into a mouse are you saying you wouldn't let me try to pick a lock. You wouldn't let an Eagle push a few buttons? What if I shifted into a gorilla - would you not let me try to drive a car? or use a first aid kit on someone? or use the wrestling martial art? I really don't care one way or the other - but couldn't the player say he practices fighting people in his shapeshifted form? I mean, he would have to right? Do you not let your players fly shapeshifted because there is no way a person could ever just know how to fly just because they are shapeshifted? |
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Jul 9 2010, 06:02 PM
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#32
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Target Group: Members Posts: 90 Joined: 3-June 08 From: San Jose, California Member No.: 16,029 |
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 9 2010, 09:31 AM) No! Why do you persist in such nonsense? Martial Arts are formatted for metahuman forms, not animal forms... Show me an animal capable of performing any current martial art, AT ALL, and I might reconsider, but since you cannot, and I am sure that you know that you cannot, then abolutely not... I mean Really... Sheesh... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif) Keep the Faith Show me an animal that can shapechange as an innate ability. As to an animal that could learn a martial art, how about a monkey or gorilla. They have roughly the same form as a human and the movements would be roughly the same. At that point, the only difference is the intelligence level, which is moot because shapeshifters are automatically sentient, if uneducated. |
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Jul 9 2010, 07:21 PM
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#33
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The Dragon Never Sleeps Group: Admin Posts: 6,924 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,667 |
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 9 2010, 10:39 AM) I know that you know that Dire Radiant... Keep the Faith In the end I'm somewhat of a reductionist. PC shape changes into an eagle and says "Now I want to drive my motorcycle." I'll just go, "Ok, use your Eagle body Reaction + your Pilot Vehicle skill, and reduce the pool by 4 since you don't have hands. Or are you going to stick on some trodes and do it VR, which might be an issue since trodes are made for metahuman brains, not bird brains?" My challenge at the table is to take the players request for an action, figure out the appropriate dice pools, if any, and have fun with the outcome of the roll of the dice. the base mechanics involve an Attribute + Skill + modifiers and I haven't seen any restrictions on Skills being dependent on the physical shape of the PC. The only restrictions on skills relate to defaultable skills. Now I do think hefty modifiers for performing some skills while shapechanged are perfectly reasonable, but removing them entirely based on the shapechanged is an another step I don't think is justified as rules based, though perfectly suitable for any personal campaign house rules. In principle where do you draw the line? The available metahuman variants are diverse enough physically that once you start doing the "I don't think an X form could have that skill." you are going down a slippery slope. Think about some of the odder metahuman variants, Naga for example. |
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 Jul 9 2010, 07:36 PM
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#34
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 734 Joined: 30-August 05 Member No.: 7,646 |
QUOTE (CanRay @ Jul 9 2010, 11:33 AM) Show me an animal that's been able to learn a Marshal Art in the first place. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) Kangaroo. Or is boxing not a martial art? |
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Jul 9 2010, 08:01 PM
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#35
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Advocatus Diaboli Group: Members Posts: 13,994 Joined: 20-November 07 From: USA Member No.: 14,282 |
Possibly not the way the kangaroo does it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) It doesn't matter, because we're not talking about kung-fu natural animals.
It is reasonable to say, 'no, you're an eagle, you're not getting +3DV from human Kung-Fu; no, not even Eagle Claw'. That's the GM's job, to decide on a case-by-case basis. |
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Jul 9 2010, 08:23 PM
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#36
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 158 Joined: 5-April 10 Member No.: 18,418 |
QUOTE (Cabral @ Jul 9 2010, 03:36 PM) Kangaroo. Or is boxing not a martial art? I'm sorry, but that kangaroo from the ol' Bugs Bunny toon was insanely devastating... But for the record, I think a humanoid form would be required to use the martial art qualities... |
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Jul 9 2010, 10:41 PM
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#37
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 734 Joined: 30-August 05 Member No.: 7,646 |
Additionally, since Kung-fu is based upon the movement of animals, shouldn't those animals receive a bonus?
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Jul 9 2010, 10:53 PM
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#38
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Prime Runner Ascendant Group: Members Posts: 17,568 Joined: 26-March 09 From: Aurora, Colorado Member No.: 17,022 |
QUOTE (sn0mm1s @ Jul 9 2010, 10:06 AM) So, let's say I shapeshift into a mouse are you saying you wouldn't let me try to pick a lock. You wouldn't let an Eagle push a few buttons? What if I shifted into a gorilla - would you not let me try to drive a car? or use a first aid kit on someone? or use the wrestling martial art? I really don't care one way or the other - but couldn't the player say he practices fighting people in his shapeshifted form? I mean, he would have to right? Do you not let your players fly shapeshifted because there is no way a person could ever just know how to fly just because they are shapeshifted? Skill useage in Animal Form is dependant upon the animals ability to actually perform the skill... In your example... No, Mouse does not lockpick... Eagle could maybe peck a few buttons, but if it is a skill check, then maybe not... Gorilla driving a car? Is it a troll modified car? Other wise probably not, he won't really fit very well... Fighting in a shapeshifted form is Unarmed Combat, not Martial Arts... already covered that... animals can practive unarmed combat all they like... but not martial arts. I would allow flight, swimming, tunneling, whatever... it is a mode of movement, and as such I have no issues regarding that... but notice, movement has no actual skill to perform the basic movement, so there again, no skill roll... any skills that are pertinent are for increasing said movement (Flight, Running, Swimming, whatever) Are you really serious here about letting an animal perform skills that a human pewrforms? Really? As I said earlier, some skills I can see, but the vast majority of them would not work in my game as an animal. Sorry... Just not going to happen. Won't call the gaming police if you do so in your game, it just strikes me as a bit silly to let an animal perform most skills. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif) Keep the Faith |
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Jul 9 2010, 11:27 PM
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#39
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Advocatus Diaboli Group: Members Posts: 13,994 Joined: 20-November 07 From: USA Member No.: 14,282 |
Haha, Cabral. No.
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Jul 10 2010, 01:08 AM
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#40
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 158 Joined: 27-January 10 Member No.: 18,083 |
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 9 2010, 04:53 PM) Skill useage in Animal Form is dependant upon the animals ability to actually perform the skill... In your example... No, Mouse does not lockpick... Eagle could maybe peck a few buttons, but if it is a skill check, then maybe not... Gorilla driving a car? Is it a troll modified car? Other wise probably not, he won't really fit very well... Fighting in a shapeshifted form is Unarmed Combat, not Martial Arts... already covered that... animals can practive unarmed combat all they like... but not martial arts. I would allow flight, swimming, tunneling, whatever... it is a mode of movement, and as such I have no issues regarding that... but notice, movement has no actual skill to perform the basic movement, so there again, no skill roll... any skills that are pertinent are for increasing said movement (Flight, Running, Swimming, whatever) Are you really serious here about letting an animal perform skills that a human pewrforms? Really? As I said earlier, some skills I can see, but the vast majority of them would not work in my game as an animal. Sorry... Just not going to happen. Won't call the gaming police if you do so in your game, it just strikes me as a bit silly to let an animal perform most skills. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif) Keep the Faith Well, Unarmed Combat does have a specialization of martial arts so they are essentially the same thing. Now, if you didn't allow any martial art bonuses for the shapeshifted animal I would definitely argue that no other melee combatants would get martial art bonuses against the shapeshifted form. Unless your martial artist trains against flying eagles or bears I have a hard time believing their training is worth all that much. If the martial art was designed for the metahuman body it was also designed to fight other metahumans. |
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Jul 10 2010, 04:17 AM
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#41
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Advocatus Diaboli Group: Members Posts: 13,994 Joined: 20-November 07 From: USA Member No.: 14,282 |
That's true, but it's not the whole truth. Techniques of striking, blocking, etc. are generalizable; you might be a little confused fighting against a bird, but not half as confused as if you WERE (temporarily) a bird.
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Jul 10 2010, 03:01 PM
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#42
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Prime Runner Ascendant Group: Members Posts: 17,568 Joined: 26-March 09 From: Aurora, Colorado Member No.: 17,022 |
QUOTE (sn0mm1s @ Jul 9 2010, 07:08 PM) Well, Unarmed Combat does have a specialization of martial arts so they are essentially the same thing. Now, if you didn't allow any martial art bonuses for the shapeshifted animal I would definitely argue that no other melee combatants would get martial art bonuses against the shapeshifted form. Unless your martial artist trains against flying eagles or bears I have a hard time believing their training is worth all that much. If the martial art was designed for the metahuman body it was also designed to fight other metahumans. I don't know about you, but I would not even attempt to engange a Bear or Eagle in Hand to hand combat (that is just dumb), that is what a gun is for after all... I have yet to see a bird capable of standing up to a shotgun, and even if you are possessed, you are still probably going down as a bird... Just sayin' Keep the Faith |
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Jul 10 2010, 03:16 PM
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#43
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Advocatus Diaboli Group: Members Posts: 13,994 Joined: 20-November 07 From: USA Member No.: 14,282 |
Sometimes, you don't get to choose your battles. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Especially if it's some crazy bastard shapeshifted into/possessing that bear or eagle.
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Jul 10 2010, 03:22 PM
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#44
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Immortal Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 14,358 Joined: 2-December 07 From: Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada Member No.: 14,465 |
Didn't a member of Dr. Raven's crew have a martial art's form called "Fights Like Wolf"?
Oh, wait, that was just the canine part of his mind taking over, never mind. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) |
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Jul 10 2010, 03:49 PM
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#45
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Prime Runner Ascendant Group: Members Posts: 17,568 Joined: 26-March 09 From: Aurora, Colorado Member No.: 17,022 |
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jul 10 2010, 09:16 AM) Sometimes, you don't get to choose your battles. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Especially if it's some crazy bastard shapeshifted into/possessing that bear or eagle. So... DO YOU stand and fight the bear, or do you run? Me personally, If I do not have a gun, or it does not work against the bear, I run... You don't melee with a bear, regardless of whether it is a shapeshifted mage or a real bear... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif) Just Sayin' |
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Jul 10 2010, 04:17 PM
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#46
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,431 Joined: 3-December 03 Member No.: 5,872 |
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 10 2010, 11:49 AM) So... DO YOU stand and fight the bear, or do you run? Me personally, If I do not have a gun, or it does not work against the bear, I run... You don't melee with a bear, regardless of whether it is a shapeshifted mage or a real bear... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif) Just Sayin' Doesn't that kind of depend on the character and campaign. I cold cocked a t-rex in a hero pulp adventure game, insane yes but I dazed him on the move through when we did the math. Damn near took my self out as well. In shadowrun I can see a Troll willing to tussle with a bear they are of similar size and strength you got a knife or a really big fist and it has claws, and any physical adept might be game if you can knock down brick walls you can probably also punch through a bear. And if a eagle was on top of me clawing away, yes I'd punch it. If it kept swooping in and out, I'd shoot it if I had a gun. |
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Jul 10 2010, 04:25 PM
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#47
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,336 Joined: 25-February 08 From: San Mateo CA Member No.: 15,708 |
Killfist,
Your suffering from being an old time Shadowrunner. The revisionists have made trolls much smaller in 4th edition. Shaq is almost out of Orc and into troll territory now. Andre almost certainly in the Troll range. Pink Mohawk game: Hell yes, we are the "heroes" after all. That other time of game: "Given the high muscle density and low nerve endings of bears and the mass ratios........." you may fall asleep as Genmo covers the technical aspects and statistics. BlueMax |
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Jul 10 2010, 04:29 PM
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#48
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Immortal Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 14,358 Joined: 2-December 07 From: Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada Member No.: 14,465 |
I'm pretty sure the Bear can cast "Transmute Flesh to Hamburger" even if it isn't a magician. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
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Jul 10 2010, 04:46 PM
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#49
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Prime Runner Ascendant Group: Members Posts: 17,568 Joined: 26-March 09 From: Aurora, Colorado Member No.: 17,022 |
QUOTE (CanRay @ Jul 10 2010, 10:29 AM) I'm pretty sure the Bear can cast "Transmute Flesh to Hamburger" even if it isn't a magician. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) My Point Exactly... Keep the Faith |
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Jul 10 2010, 04:48 PM
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#50
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,431 Joined: 3-December 03 Member No.: 5,872 |
QUOTE (BlueMax @ Jul 10 2010, 12:25 PM) Killfist, Your suffering from being an old time Shadowrunner. The revisionists have made trolls much smaller in 4th edition. Shaq is almost out of Orc and into troll territory now. Andre almost certainly in the Troll range. Pink Mohawk game: Hell yes, we are the "heroes" after all. That other time of game: "Given the high muscle density and low nerve endings of bears and the mass ratios........." you may fall asleep as Genmo covers the technical aspects and statistics. BlueMax Well even in the trolls are just taller humans with horns edition they outweigh the typical grizzly, and 8ish strength is where I am guessing the game puts a bear, I only see great cat in the main book and the juggernaut was so dandified I don't see a bear being all that absurd in strength. Though my PDF collection does not include any critters beyond SR4A so who knows because I'm too lazy to get my book. |
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