![]() |
![]() ![]() |
![]() |
![]()
Post
#1
|
|
Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 448 Joined: 20-July 09 From: Detroit Member No.: 17,413 ![]() |
I know that bullet trains now, are incredibly fast, but what would dumpshock's guess be at one's speed in 2072? How do you think they'd be driven? Riggers or Pilot programs? Would they have rigger adaptations? I'm planning my next mission around travel along the bullet train that stations in Tacoma at The Grand Royer Station and I'm wondering about alot of things. Like how long it would take before they gout out of the southern border of Seattle? Or, would jumping off of one be possible? (Doubting that, but you never know) Just trying to figure out things that may eventually come into play. Anyone have any ideas?
|
|
|
![]()
Post
#2
|
|
Running Target ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1,139 Joined: 31-March 10 From: UCAS Member No.: 18,391 ![]() |
Fast but probably not too much faster than the one's we have now. The one's we have now have plateu'd due to the ability of the thing to stop or take the turns with out flying off and crashing though a hill or neighborhood or something. Too much faster and the danger goes up. I mean if you're a person in the thing and it's going 1000 mph and suddenly rounds a corner, you're a splatter on the wall. Shadowrun doesn't have Star Treks Inturnal Dampeners.
|
|
|
![]()
Post
#3
|
|
Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 448 Joined: 20-July 09 From: Detroit Member No.: 17,413 ![]() |
Fast but probably not too much faster than the one's we have now. The one's we have now have plateu'd due to the ability of the thing to stop or take the turns with out flying off and crashing though a hill or neighborhood or something. Too much faster and the danger goes up. I mean if you're a person in the thing and it's going 1000 mph and suddenly rounds a corner, you're a splatter on the wall. Shadowrun doesn't have Star Treks Inturnal Dampeners. Haha, point made. I've never understood why they don't just incline turns to make them easier and less dangerous, similar to how nascar tracks do. I figure that would allow them to travel faster with less danger, but I'm no physicist |
|
|
![]()
Post
#4
|
|
Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 104 Joined: 19-May 10 From: Melbourne, Australia Member No.: 18,592 ![]() |
Haha, point made. I've never understood why they don't just incline turns to make them easier and less dangerous, similar to how nascar tracks do. I figure that would allow them to travel faster with less danger, but I'm no physicist If you ever need to make an emergency stop on one of those corners, you don't want your train hanging sideways. Banked corners are good, but are only suitable for a small range of speeds. Also, instead of squishing your passengers into the walls, you squish them into the floor just as hard. The only way to travel faster, is to make the corners more gradual, which isn't necessarily an option with extensive urbanisation. |
|
|
![]()
Post
#5
|
|
Great Dragon ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 ![]() |
|
|
|
![]()
Post
#6
|
|
Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 250 Joined: 16-January 09 From: Nowhere near you... unless you happen to be near Cologne. Member No.: 16,776 ![]() |
Well, today's bullet trains in China travel at almost 320 kph (200 mph) on average which is the fastest trip speed in the world at the moment.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-speed_rail_in_China And I think they could go even faster, but that really depends on track layout (no sharp turns and ideally no stops in between). And if this isn't fast enough for you, you could also consider using a maglev train. These can easily reach more than 400 kph. -CJ |
|
|
![]()
Post
#7
|
|
Running Target ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1,373 Joined: 14-January 10 From: Stuttgart, Germany Member No.: 18,036 ![]() |
you could add three spirit services: Movement, Guard and Guard (different Spirits, Redundancy!!!)
|
|
|
![]()
Post
#8
|
|
Runner ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 2,883 Joined: 16-December 06 Member No.: 10,386 ![]() |
Fast but probably not too much faster than the one's we have now. The one's we have now have plateu'd due to the ability of the thing to stop or take the turns with out flying off and crashing though a hill or neighborhood or something. Too much faster and the danger goes up. That's certainly part of it, but there's also the issue of conquering drag safely and efficiently. While maglevs are extremely efficient in general aircraft have the marked advantage of being able climb to high altitudes and thus face lower air pressure at cruise. That's part of why the ol' Blackbird could book so damn fast. As inefficient as getting off the ground may be, once you get up to 80,000 feet Newton's first law starts striking with a vengeance. As aerodynamic as maglevs are, they're still stuck at sea level or close to it. Which brings us to a fancy concept that I seriously doubt will be in heavy rotation even in a magical 2070: Vactrains. Basically, take a train, but run that bad boy in a vacuum. Theoretically, we're talking about something stupidly fast and tremendously efficient, but such an application mostly makes sense for transcontinental distances or else you just run into that whole, you know, having to actually stop as soon as you've began issue. And building a sucker THAT big would make the chunnel cost overrun look like chump change. So maybe there's some kind of "small" proof of concept model, but nothing out-pacing the fastest aircraft. |
|
|
![]()
Post
#9
|
|
Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 448 Joined: 20-July 09 From: Detroit Member No.: 17,413 ![]() |
Thanks for all the help (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)
I think I'm going to go with around 250mph. That seems reasonable for it to still have turns and technologies gotten better, but technology still can defeat physics. |
|
|
![]()
Post
#10
|
|
Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 144 Joined: 27-November 09 From: Los Angeles, PCC Member No.: 17,905 ![]() |
I know that bullet trains now, are incredibly fast, but what would dumpshock's guess be at one's speed in 2072? How do you think they'd be driven? Riggers or Pilot programs? Would they have rigger adaptations? I'm planning my next mission around travel along the bullet train that stations in Tacoma at The Grand Royer Station and I'm wondering about alot of things. Like how long it would take before they gout out of the southern border of Seattle? Or, would jumping off of one be possible? (Doubting that, but you never know) Just trying to figure out things that may eventually come into play. Anyone have any ideas? Seattle 2072, pg 8 QUOTE A sealed-tube, high-speed maglev train runs from San Francisco to Seattle through Tir Tairngire and the Salish-Shidhe Council. It is the only passenger rail-service into the metroplex. The trip takes about two hours and is primarily used by tourists and employees of corporations with interests in both cities. The maglev-tube is opaque and large portions of it are underground, so sightseeing opportunities are limited to departure and arrival points, as the maglev makes no stops along its route. It's just over 800 miles by road between the two cities, so that's an average of about 400 mph/645 kph to make the trip. As the tube is sealed, you probably couldn't just "jump off". There are probably access "airlocks" at intervals for emergencies. The team could, theoretically, acquire the locations of the "airlocks", cause an emergency for which the train would have to stop, exit the train into the tube (taking precautions for the low air environment), and get outside before the appropriate law enforcement (most likely local military) arrives to investigate/resolve the emergency. |
|
|
![]()
Post
#11
|
|
Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 448 Joined: 20-July 09 From: Detroit Member No.: 17,413 ![]() |
Seattle 2072, pg 8 It's just over 800 miles by road between the two cities, so that's an average of about 400 mph/645 kph to make the trip. As the tube is sealed, you probably couldn't just "jump off". There are probably access "airlocks" at intervals for emergencies. The team could, theoretically, acquire the locations of the "airlocks", cause an emergency for which the train would have to stop, exit the train into the tube (taking precautions for the low air environment), and get outside before the appropriate law enforcement (most likely local military) arrives to investigate/resolve the emergency. Hmm... that changes the dynamics of the mission I had in plan by a very large amount. Haha (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) Well back to the drawing boards. |
|
|
![]()
Post
#12
|
|
Runner ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 2,883 Joined: 16-December 06 Member No.: 10,386 ![]() |
Pfft, if it's a truly sealed tube I'm disappointed it takes a whole 2 hours. Must be those damned turns and piddly safety regulations. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
|
|
|
![]()
Post
#13
|
|
Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 165 Joined: 3-March 09 From: A top-secret federal party facility. Member No.: 16,929 ![]() |
Turns, I guess. Probably difficult to keep a total vacuum as well. At least with a full tube you can use magnetic repulsion around the whole circumference of the train.
|
|
|
![]()
Post
#14
|
|
Running Target ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1,139 Joined: 31-March 10 From: UCAS Member No.: 18,391 ![]() |
One thing that's been partially brought up here. While these things are kick ass in the straight aways, your 'turns' have to be huuuuge and gradual. Meaning you're dealing with very little right to left and almost totally straight lines.
And even with an average speed of 200... 250+ MPH... that's in the straight aways. The things are slowing down to 60.. 80 MPH in the long gradual turns then powering out of them and ziping along in the ( Relatively) Straight lines. I imagine in 2072, it's just cheaper and easier to fly. As long as a dragon doesn't take offense and decide to eat your plane. (( and really if that's happening, the dragon could just as easily take offense and eat your train so it's kinda a non- issue. Though it would be funny as hell if you're team is pulling "The train job" From Firefly, only to have a dragon try and munch on the thing.)) |
|
|
![]()
Post
#15
|
|
Running Target ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1,190 Joined: 31-May 09 From: London, UK Member No.: 17,229 ![]() |
That's certainly part of it, but there's also the issue of conquering drag safely and efficiently. While maglevs are extremely efficient in general aircraft have the marked advantage of being able climb to high altitudes and thus face lower air pressure at cruise. That's part of why the ol' Blackbird could book so damn fast. As inefficient as getting off the ground may be, once you get up to 80,000 feet Newton's first law starts striking with a vengeance. As aerodynamic as maglevs are, they're still stuck at sea level or close to it. Still, the current speed records are slightly less than 600 kph (and there is little difference between maglevs and wheeled trains). That is twice as much as the used cruising speeds. I think most of the obstacles are logistical, not technical. At some point the limit to the acceleration becomes the passenger comfort, not the train. So in order to reach maximal speed the train should not stop. Then the line loses potential clients and becomes non viable. But it would make sense in the Shadowrun context to have trains link Seattle or Denver to the rest of the UCAS without stopping in NAN territory. QUOTE Which brings us to a fancy concept that I seriously doubt will be in heavy rotation even in a magical 2070: Vactrains. Basically, take a train, but run that bad boy in a vacuum. Theoretically, we're talking about something stupidly fast and tremendously efficient, but such an application mostly makes sense for transcontinental distances or else you just run into that whole, you know, having to actually stop as soon as you've began issue. And building a sucker THAT big would make the chunnel cost overrun look like chump change. So maybe there's some kind of "small" proof of concept model, but nothing out-pacing the fastest aircraft. The Swiss have been pondering this for a while, and once again it seems that the obstacles are more political than technical. They cannot get the money together without asking the cantons to chip in, then every canton wants a stop, and so many stops just defeat the whole point. http://www.swissmetro.ch/en |
|
|
![]()
Post
#16
|
|
Runner ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 2,883 Joined: 16-December 06 Member No.: 10,386 ![]() |
At some point the limit to the acceleration becomes the passenger comfort, not the train. Yeah, that always slips my mind, which is kinda silly considering that human tolerances are a big part of why the military has an interest in unmanned aircraft. Anyway, I think a lot of people would be amazed in general with just how many crazy things people could build if cost and politics weren't an issue. Unfortunately, a lot of really clever ideas would be really stupid to implement. |
|
|
![]()
Post
#17
|
|
Wordsmith ![]() ![]() Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 598 Joined: 21-June 10 From: Leeds, UK Member No.: 18,740 ![]() |
I'd have to say the limiting factor would be the comfort of the passengers.
A rollercoaster would normally give a passenger intensities from -1 to about +5g, and a coaster ride might be 1-2 minutes long dependent on style. They can accelerate you to 60+ mph in fairly short track lengths, but we ride these things for thrills and excitement. On a passenger train, you're not going to want to subject your passengers to any negative vertical g's, probably a max of 1g pulling away from stations rising to 2g on an acceleration area to get up to speed. This limits the acceleration forces you can use, and based on track length and curvature as many have posted above, will limit the practical top speed. If you could get the optimum track layout - a straight platform with quick passenger loading, have all passengers seated before departure, accelerate smoothly out of the station on straight track, travel on a laser-like straight route to the destination, and then decelerate on the station approach into another straight line station, then you'd probably be able to raise your speed considerably using 2060-2070s technology. Hyperslick lubricants, new alloys for constructions, plentiful power from fusion reactors, super fast signalling and the reactions of rigger drivers or high level pilots would make faster speeds practical. On the other hand, if your train has to wend it's way around natural terrain, corporate enclaves, NAN burial grounds, 20th century rights of way, over mountain ranges and swamps, with constant variable bend curves, dips, climbs and the normal level of maintenance on public travel, your top speed is going to be much reduced. Joe Salaryman just won't want to take a train where he is subjected to apparent forces that make him feel twice as heavy for extended amounts of time. And as one of the posters above said, you want your two stations far apart to allow for an acceleration phase, a sustained high speed run, then a deceleration phase. If you're constantly stop-starting at local commuter stations or frequent city stops, you'll never reach your top speed. If a train operator can get the best possible route from A to B, making straight line travel possible, then it would unlock access to much greater speeds. I'd have thought it would be possible in a few places in the 6th world, but these would be the exception and not the rule. Those routes would probably be between a few key sprawls/megaplexes, have taken years to construct or fund, and be high profile. Shadowrun tastic material for a GM though... hiring runners to force out people on land wanted by the train company, sabotaging construction work on behalf of aviation companies or displaced land owners, working on either side on behalf of terra-first depending on their mood... |
|
|
![]()
Post
#18
|
|
Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 431 Joined: 15-April 10 Member No.: 18,454 ![]() |
Shadowrun tastic material for a GM though... hiring runners to force out people on land wanted by the train company, sabotaging construction work on behalf of aviation companies or displaced land owners, working on either side on behalf of terra-first depending on their mood... Going to steal this idea.... |
|
|
![]()
Post
#19
|
|
Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 431 Joined: 15-April 10 Member No.: 18,454 ![]() |
The other good thing about putting the trains in vac sealed tunnels is that the difficulty for placing physical barriers in front of the train goes up quite a bit. Nothing quite like 6 or 7 force 1 Physical barriers to force some control rolls off a pilot. And yes even the train can be forced to make control rolls under the right circumstances.
On another related topic, the maglev train in a sealed tunnel probably won't have the best matrix connection would it? |
|
|
![]()
Post
#20
|
|
Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 633 Joined: 16-March 05 From: 51° 16' North 7° 11' East Member No.: 7,168 ![]() |
And if this isn't fast enough for you, you could also consider using a maglev train. These can easily reach more than 400 kph. We have this great Transrapid riding around in circles for decades and made just about nothing out of the tech. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dead.gif) |
|
|
![]()
Post
#21
|
|
Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 250 Joined: 16-January 09 From: Nowhere near you... unless you happen to be near Cologne. Member No.: 16,776 ![]() |
We have this great Transrapid riding around in circles for decades and made just about nothing out of the tech. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dead.gif) No, we payed the Chinese to build a track... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif) |
|
|
![]()
Post
#22
|
|
Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 633 Joined: 16-March 05 From: 51° 16' North 7° 11' East Member No.: 7,168 ![]() |
No, we payed the Chinese to build a track... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif) Know what's going to happen? They'll copy it and sell it back to us. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotate.gif) |
|
|
![]()
Post
#23
|
|
Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 748 Joined: 22-April 07 From: Vermont Member No.: 11,507 ![]() |
SanFrancisco–Seattle:Call the sealed-tube maglev 1200 km for a nice round average of 600 kph.
However, compare 600 kph to:
|
|
|
![]()
Post
#24
|
|
Immortal Elf ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 10,289 Joined: 2-October 08 Member No.: 16,392 ![]() |
Keep in mind that the upper speed of the train depends on the distance between stops. Gotta speed up and slow down to hit the stations! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
E.g. the San-Fran to Seattle train could not ever stop in Portland Oregon or it would be unable to maintain its 600+ kph top speed. |
|
|
![]()
Post
#25
|
|
Prime Runner ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 3,996 Joined: 1-June 10 Member No.: 18,649 ![]() |
It doesn't need to hit Portland. Portland is really close by, relatively speaking. A regular 200KPH train would do for getting to Portland.
|
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() |
Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 4th July 2025 - 01:02 PM |
Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.