What should I do about this?, my players please stay out, also may be Ghost Cartels spoilers Options

[tagz]

So, my group is playing Ghost Cartels right now. They just completed the "Dirty Pretty Money" run. Please stop reading now if you don't want any spoiler info, but I'll try to keep it to a minimum. My players should stay out of this thread please.




So, they ended up in a firefight with the Yakuza in the garage, that scenario. Long story short, they escaped by car just after the FBI finished dropping men on the roof via chopper.

So naturally, the chopper pursues them. Since they are downtown at noon their escape options by car are limited to say the least. I ask the driver if he's going to stop at red lights and obey traffic laws, and he says "No, I'll do whatever I need to to keep moving." So, running lights, driving in oncoming traffic lanes, etc. The player is unwilling to ditch the car, think "BA from the 'A-Team' and his van" type attachment. Also it doesn't help that he has a rocket launcher in the trunk.

Anyhow, they decide the only thing they can do is go to the Aztechnology Pyramid for it's extraterritoriality. They have the NPC hacker arrange a bribe and favor to let them on the property despite the chopper pursuit. Amounted to 20,000 and a favor to an Aztec manager to be handled later. Before leaving the property they visited an on site dealership and got a repaint from the garage.

So, I feel like they payed pretty harshly for this, but they forgot something important. They didn't do anything about the plates. They ran red lights so that means the traffic cams took pictures, not to mention the chopper's video surveillance. So the car is still driving around with the license plates that links them to that scene... I don't know what to do in a "fairness" perspective. They already dropped a big wad of cash and owe a favor that may very will get them into huge trouble... Should I just let it slide? Should I pursue it as they overlooked a very important detail? I need a few opinions.

[MortVent]

bwahahahahahahahahahah! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/devil.gif)

Drop the hammer on them... it's a harsh world and the little things will get ya (like the kanmusha drone rigged with the injector needle and chamelon coating...)

[Martin_DeVries_I...]

I agree with Mort but I would add: wait.
Finish up the Ghost Cartels stuff you want for your campaign. Wait a couple of months in-game. Meanwhile Lone Star has noticed activity on those plates, the FBI has taken that data and is using it to build a case against the runners, their contacts, their fences, smugglers, etc. They use surveillance and traffic data to get a big file on them. And just when the team has forgotten about it...

...in comes the FBI with a warrant. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/vegm.gif)

Best of all, you can run this in two ways: if you want to punish them, you can do the whole arrest/jail/trial/conviction route. Or you can have the FBI say, "We'll drop the case, if you take care of a few things for us..."

[chinagreenelvis]

Have a third party contact them and attempt to blackmail them. Perhaps he's someone close to them who was watching the whole time, hacked into the systems. He cleared up the data, allowing them to get away with it, but kept copies of it all for himself and is threatening to use it against them if they don't pay up or do something for him. Another run, maybe.

[chinagreenelvis]

Or that FBI thing is a pretty good idea, as well. Those bastards are just as corrupt in 2070 as anyone else. I'm sure Uncle Sam goes through shadowrunners like flouride.

[tagz]

That's a definite possibility. Have the FBI work up a case against them and THEN force them to rat out on the cartel, or the Seapola Ring. And in that manner it doesn't HAVE to be a complete 'F YOU situation coming from me, it could just be a new plot element they could have to dig themselves out of.

[Falanin]

Honestly, if they're going to the trouble of working with other people to clean up their traces (presumably professionals who want repeat buisness, or at least to not get busted), then said other people will POINT OUT the glaring problems, unless they're deliberately fucking over your team.

There is a fine line between knowing what precautions to take, and encouraging your players to take them... and punishing the players because they didn't think of EVERY SINGLE angle that you did as the GM. As the GM, you can have shit go wrong... at any time. The questions in this case are:is it appropriate to hit them now, will it encourage them to RP better in the future, and will it cause bad feelings at the table when you drop this on them.

In the case of your players, who tried really hard to lose the tail... It IS appropriate to hit them for not changing the plates/transponder. Any chop shop they deal with, however, is GOING to tell them that just a paint job isn't going to save their hoop. It might be an obvious thing, but if your players honestly don't know the kinds of precautions to take, than punishing them for not knowing better is kinda pointless. Now, if they're just being stupid, go for it. You might want to hold off even if they're being stupid, though, because of the third thing. If your players feel like you're just being a jerk, having their escape fail despite all the work they put into it, that could provoke some serious arguments and resentment. (I have had multiple games fall through from these kinds of arguments, so that's why the kinda harsh tone)

Hope this helps.

[Yerameyahu]

I'd just tell them and fix it. Don't forget, characters know things players don't.

[tagz]

Well, the thing is it wasn't a chop shop, it was a legal garage and they actually went to lengths to keep the guys doing the repaint from knowing it was to disguise the car. The only people who had reason to help them were the gurards they bribed and the manager they never talked to. And they guards DID help them, gave them some advice, etc.

I think what I'll do is give them a strong hint and if they don't figure it out then I'll work it into the story and try not to use it strictly as punishment.

[Falanin]

Yeah, the problem with not being able to trust anyone is having to do EVERYTHING yourself. This is how villains end up with plans an average 10-year old could foil.

[Saint Sithney]

I'm confused.
He cares about his car and hasn't spent the piddly 500 yen for a morphing license plate or 1500 more for a spoof chip?

Please tell me he has standard street tires too.

[Yerameyahu]

Not everyone is careful to read through every item in the books (poor bastards). I say let the characters at the very least roll for Don't-Be-Stupid. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[toturi]

If I was GMing this scenario (and I have), I would first look to see if any of the characters have any Knowledge skill at all that would point him to avoid such mistakes. This is those times where despite the player not knowing something, the character should (or he should not have survived in the shadows to this point).

If I recall correctly, the FBI team doesn't have a mage. I am not sure whether this is an oversight or a deliberate design "flaw" in the scenario (I vaguely remember a dev/writer saying that this was intended, but I can't recall who said it); but if there is a PC mage, the PCs have many ways to elude pursuit.

[agustaaquila]

I would think that the contact would point out something as basic as changing the license/transponder. This would be a matter of insuring that the group is still alive when Aztech comes calling to cash in on the favor. They would also bring in someone to do this while the other techs were out at lunch, to keep it out of their knowledge.

I also think that Aztech would just happen to keep a copy of the changed codes themselves, so that they could track down the characters whenever they wanted. I wouldn't give players hints about this, as it should be something they have to figure out. Of course, the codes would stay even after they paid the favor back. Nothing says AAA like a call from an old friend while your in the middle of a run against them, asking why they are on Aztech property. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Critias]

If I was GMing this scenario (and I have), I would first look to see if any of the characters have any Knowledge skill at all that would point him to avoid such mistakes. This is those times where despite the player not knowing something, the character should (or he should not have survived in the shadows to this point).

This.

[Yerameyahu]

Huzzah, consensus.

[phillosopherp]

Here is how I would run it (every pun intended). I would say that it was something that the Azzie Manager that they owe the favor caught it before they drove off the Azzie territory, told his hackers to pull the tapes from the light cameras, and the helo. When he calls in that favor now its not just a big issue but a HUGE issue. One in which he will call in soon after the Ghost Cartel story is over so as to have the info still mean something. Basically they still have to pay the price for not thinking of something that is pretty obvious, didn't think to give themselves an option of asking you for a Sec knowledge roll to get anything that they missed, and yet still not a big hammer just something to add more to the story.


Just my way that I would handle it.

[Martin_DeVries_I...]

Yeah, after reading over everyone else's input, I have to agree; this should be a situation in which the characters should have a chance to figure it out. Sometimes, we as players slip and forget a detail or two. It shouldn't frag the entire run.

Though I do still like my FBI idea. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[imperialus]

There is a fine line between knowing what precautions to take, and encouraging your players to take them... and punishing the players because they didn't think of EVERY SINGLE angle that you did as the GM. As the GM, you can have shit go wrong... at any time. The questions in this case are:is it appropriate to hit them now, will it encourage them to RP better in the future, and will it cause bad feelings at the table when you drop this on them.

I would tend to agree with this. No group of players is ever going to think of every possible angle that would prevent them from being traced at all. In all honesty making a break for the Azzie pyramid was a stroke of brilliance and the players should be rewarded for it. I like the idea of having the azzie manager call in the favor sometime down the road, it serves as a great plot hook, but at the end of the day you need to ask yourself "Does this increase the fun factor for the people who come over to my house on Friday evenings to drink a few beers, order pizza and pretend to be criminal elves with machine guns?" If the answer to that is no, then don't do it.

Just as an example, when my group did the run to snatch that reporters body from the DocWagon clinic one of my players had his docwagon bracelet go off. I posted about it here. Lots of people posted perfectly legitimate suggestions that I have DocWagon go for the throat in tracking him down and punishing him. Me, I'm happy letting it slide with him just having to scrub his SIN and get a new one. I even made him roleplay out a two week interval where his lifestyle was 'couchsurfer' because he couldn't even check into a motel room. I'm going to leave it at that, mainly because continuing to have DocWagon pursue him would no longer be fun.

[Makki]

[ Spoiler ]

The Azzies will return later in the book

i'm not sure if you can/want to integrate that manager into the original plot

[Caadium]

I agree with Mort but I would add: wait.
Finish up the Ghost Cartels stuff you want for your campaign. Wait a couple of months in-game. Meanwhile Lone Star has noticed activity on those plates, the FBI has taken that data and is using it to build a case against the runners, their contacts, their fences, smugglers, etc. They use surveillance and traffic data to get a big file on them. And just when the team has forgotten about it...

...in comes the FBI with a warrant. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/vegm.gif)

Best of all, you can run this in two ways: if you want to punish them, you can do the whole arrest/jail/trial/conviction route. Or you can have the FBI say, "We'll drop the case, if you take care of a few things for us..."

If you decide to go this way I would suggest tweaking it a bit. Depending on the loyalty of their contacts, word of whats going down might wind up with the players before the investigation can be done. One high loyalty contact tips the group off, they can attempt to get underground, possibly create new identities, etc. This charade can go on for a lont time depending on how careful they are and what contacts they can trust.

If the group went out of their way to make sure that the garage didn't know it was a disguise paint job, then check the knowledge skills, or possibly give them an intuition roll, or even possibly tell them a story before the game about someone you know getting a red-light ticket mailed to them with the picture of their license plate (just make it part of the small talk before you get started and give them a chance make the connection or not).

In the end though, a lot depends on how black-hat, and how pink mohawk you want things. If you want uber-black hat, there are always things that players and characters will forget to get them into trouble. Go with what works for the game you and your group want to play.

[tagz]

Totori:
Yeah, I like the idea of using knowledge skills often and for things like this, but sadly nobody had anything even close to being useful, and that was with me applying them liberally.

Also, the FBI ERT team does have a mage, with 4 bound F5 spirits no less. In addition, my group has been going through a few personnel changes, both in game by changing a few characters with new ones, and out of game with a few people not coming as often. This random roulette of characters yielded zero magic support on this run.

imperialus:
Sadly they DIDN'T really come up with it... The team uses an NPC hacker that I roleplay. He came up with the idea to use extraterritoriality, they asked him to do a search for one that would work, he came up with the Azzie Pyrimid AND he secured the negotiations to arrange the bribe and deal. I hand-held them a fair amount in that one since they were kinda boned. The NPC hacker ended up getting the extra karma. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)

Makki:
Mind reader.



So I guess what it comes down to is... is 20,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) and a to be called in favor enough of a punishment for having to hand them an escape route on a silver platter? My thinking is that I can use the footage of them on Auzzie property linking them to the vehicle and chase to ensure cooperation... but do I take it a step farther because even after giving them an easy out they still didn't clean up very well?

Part of me says to be forgiving, they may have just had an off day. The other part of me is more like, "I had to spoon feed them a way out and they don't even have the decency to wipe their own mouths afterward".

I think what I'll do is let the person with Common Sense know that they definitely forgot something vital in regards to the car, but not tell them precisely what it is.

[Yerameyahu]

Whoa whoa. One of the characters actually *had* Common Sense this whole time? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Dude!

[tagz]

I can only use it so much before I'm just playing his character n_n

Also, KNOWING something's a bad idea doesn't mean you don't do it anyhow.

And finally, he wasn't WITH the car owner when the repainting was going on. I'd have pointed it out to him then.

[Yerameyahu]

Hah, well if he's been abusing the worst Positive Quality in the game, sure.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) In the world of Matrix 2.0, can you ever *not* be with people?