Regular Military vs. Shadowrunners Options

[LivingOxymoron]

I just wanted to get some people's opinions on this:

What are the comparative strength levels of a Regular Military squad vs. a Shadowrunner team? Should one necessarily be able to dominate the other the majority of the time in an even match? How would a typical infantry squad (not a SpecOps squad like Ghosts, Delta, or Wildcats) be outfitted, specifically as regards armor? What is the norm? Armor Jacket/Camo Suit? Security Armor? Light Military Grade Armor?

Understanding that the T/O doesn't allow for a mage to back-up every squad, what does the typical squad use to protect themselves against a single mage with an overcasted powerbolt from wiping them out, especially in a vehicle?

Any ideas, or things you've used in the past?

Personally, its my opinion that an army squad should be able to take on a typical team rather easily in a toe-to-toe match. Runners, on the other hand, can rely on a higher level use of magic at "street" level, and better hacker support to even the odds, and overcome a squad with the proper planning and use of their specialized skills.

[Hagga]

Pretty comparable. Your average grunt has 3 in his firearms group, 4-5 in his physical attributes and the like. A basic armour vest, helmet and some armoured fabric, but some good drilling and tac software so they work together much better than your typical runner crew. Light grade military armour, due to the cost, would probably be restricted to the spec-ops guys.

[Critias]

A group that's of similar numbers to a Shadowrunner team (which would, for the record, likely be called a "fire team")? Yeah, the Shadowrunners will probably take 'em out. Shadowrunners tend to be way over-magicked compared to everyone else, and given to levels of munchkinism and min/maxing you just don't see in your everyday, run of the mill, grunt. Individual gear will be better (or, at least, more specialized), more customized, and individual Shadowrunners will be slinging more dice with their (again, more specialized) actions, roll for roll, compared to your average grunt.

What makes a military dangerous isn't the individual soldier, though, US Army recruitment slogans notwithstanding. The regular military guys could/should have a transport, could/should have better communications and information, could/should have air/drone support, could/should have comprehensive tactical computer assistance, and -- most importantly -- are part of an army.

You don't really run into a fire team (4-5 guys) by itself, unless they are Tir Ghost, or Ares Firewatch, or Sioux Wildcats, or any flavor of real-life badasses. When you're dealing with everyday run of the mill grunts, if you're lucky you run into a platoon or two.

And a platoon or two of guys that train together, know how to lay down suppressive fire while the rest of them flank, all have grenades and are used to using them, have a clear chain of command for a solid "groupthink" response to a tactical situation, etc, etc, etc? That's a whole different ball of wax.

[Demonic357]

Based off of current regs a U.S. Army squad is nine guys, with a fire team being four. As previously noted their strength comes from long hours spent drilling together over common situations and responses (battle drills), and the various support elements they rely on, such as call for fire/reinforcements. The only elements you would be likely to run into in team size would be special operations, regular army doesn't prowl around in anything less than a squad, and even then usually only if at least one other squad is nearby.

Equipment of a regular army squad would probably be pretty basic for pricing reasons, and I would have to imagine that cyber/bio gear would be limited to what an individual soldier could buy for themselves (not very much). Depending on how the game is run (gritty gang style to high profile James Bond kind of stuff) the Shadowrunners are much more likely to have heavily invested in gear, cyber/bio, and personal training. The only real ace the regular squad would have is their small unit tactics training and any support nearby. I would vote on the Shadowrunners most of the time

[kzt]

Powerbolts don't do shit against armored vehicles. Treat it as a barrier. They can't overcome the armor defense roll + the 15 points of structure in the single roll, which is what the rules require.

Outside the squad spreads out. Typical interval internal that a modern fire team should maintain is 10 meters between members, so explosions only get one guy. This also works against magic, if they can locate the magician.

A typical squad would be linked into a tactical network and carried much heavier weapons than the typical runner group. The squad missile launcher designed to kill main battle tanks will kill anything else, and anyone else in the near vicinity.

And squads don't appear by themselves. A platoon is the smallest actual tactical organization you'd deploy, and it would more typically be a company. So they have access to a LOT more firepower via radio. The runners could be pretty confident that they have the fight under control until the company 120 mm mortars start each dropping a 14kg round every round on the runners....

[Saint Sithney]

Infiltration = surprise = "oh shi-"

I also expect runners to be using the kinds of weapons and tactics which would see a soldier court-marshaled.

[IKerensky]

Reading the sourcebook it seems that even the regular army use cybernetics, and from a long time, so perhaps not all of them have top notch prothesis but second hand older models should be the norm.

Dont forget that SR armies are very often battle blooded, far more often then not in fact. And that a lot of the gear not easily avaliable to Shadowrunner is military grade and thus easily attainable to them.

Awakened magical support and hacking support is probably squad sized or pooled at the company size for better efficiency. Army use magic... a lot of combat magic that only make sense after all.

Also Army guys dont care for licence nor urban infiltration that much, I bet each squad is backed up by several drones wth centralised military grade defense (look in unwirred it is 6-7+ in firewall). Every soldier have a military grade full armor, access to the best ammo and weapons, a high level functionning tac-net, a lot of experiences, anti-tank weaponnary on hand and heavy artillery and missile support readily avaliable.

My bet is that Army are above Shadowrunnner in standard in the face battle, they should be. In infiltration/Ambush, the Shadowrunner can manage to disrupt, succede in their mission, but they are not supposed to be able to stand toes to toes with regulars military unit.

Disclaimer : I am only considering Armies from middle-upper Countries and Corporation, that is Professionnal Soldiers that goes through selection and training with integrated tactics and strategies, no Third-World mob that are +/- the first guy you can get put a hat and a AK on. I am also not considering conscript armies (Reserve, National Guard) that doesn't exist anymore in the 6th world.

[Minchandre]

Also, considering the current modern trend, the average infantry are going to have a lot of drone support, especially considering how little drones cost in 2070. If I were the GM, I would assign at least a Steel Lynx for fire support and several little recon flyers to each squad of grunts.

[Mantis]

KZT I think you need to check out how powerbolt works. You only need to defeat the object resistance test (5+) and the vehicle gets no damage resistance test. You can find the relevant passages on pg 204 of SR4a. The combat spells referenced by pg 187 of SR4a refer to indirect combat spells.

[D2F]

Aside from the obvious points that have been mentioned so far (minimum Platoon sized, heavy drone support, artillery, military grade equipment), there's also this:

1.) It depends heavily on what military you are running against. Aztlan, for excemple, isn't overly concerned about the cost of anchored spells for their units.

2.) Spirits on remote task and/or loaned services can easily provide field support against magical threats. It is important to understand that "Karma costs" don't factor into NPCs for various reasons. Resources being one of them.

3.) It also depends on the Enviroment they operate in. In "civilized" urban areas, they won't be able to call in artillery strikes, for excemple. (So no massive drone Bombardment in Downtown Seattle). In "uncivilized" urban areas, that restriction no longer applies (Read: carpet bombing Lagos is somewhat acceptable).

[IKerensky]

3.) It also depends on the Enviroment they operate in. In "civilized" urban areas, they won't be able to call in artillery strikes, for excemple. (So no massive drone Bombardment in Downtown Seattle). In "uncivilized" urban areas, that restriction no longer applies (Read: carpet bombing Lagos is somewhat acceptable).

Usually army dont fight in heavily civilian populated area. But if the menace is large enough to send in the army then it is implicated they could use any ressource in their arsenal. The civilian having to evacuate the area as fast as they can.

To be noticed than Drones could provided localised heavy fire to supply the lack of heavy ordonnance in populated area.

Remember than standard army units are usually above police SWAT team in terms of training and equipement. When you bring on the army then you want the opposition to be leveled. Also they tend to use far more heavily armored and armed vehicule than police. And you can bet than all and every MBT, Choppers and Strike Aircraft were given wards and protection (linked spirit ?) against magical agression.

We are in 2070, not 2020 anymore, in firepower armies are usually the leaders. I dont think a street wiz is supposed to be able to do anything to a military vehicules. Thoses are supposed to go against major countries and corporation magical ressources, they are obviously shielded against Direct Magic.

[MortVent]

carpet bombing lagos is a hobby

But one other thing to consider is terms.

A first term grunt that hasn't turned career isn't going to be packing much in the way of ware (datajack, cyberyes, maybe a smartlink)

Where a third term career soldier might be packed with a bit more (1 or 2 levels of wired reflexes, maybe a cyberspur, and dermal plating)

Also consider the role, a rigger would have a datajack, headware commlink, and control module standard (and a longer term of service too)

I would say an average fire team would be 3 guys with assault rifles (with it being SR all with the grenade launchers, but only 1 magazine of HE minigrenades), 1 clip in the gun and 6 on the belts. Likely pack a few grenades (1 HE, 1 Frag, 2 utility [flare, smoke]), survial knife and for armor I would say fatigues (3/0) or armor vest (6/4) and then survial gear (gasmask, survial kit, medkit, etc) with a mid-range commlink (rating 4, with encrypt, eccm, and analyze)

The fourth guy would be packing a LMG with a couple drums of ammo (and likely the rest may hump a couple extras)

Drone support would be a couple I-balls (offensive) with maybe a couple fly spys as standard gear. With anything nastier being assigned per mission by the company/platoon leaders. Same with the disposable/reusable heavy weapons like missiles/rockets.

You got to remember your average grunt has to lug this crap around, so when you stop and consider gear for them think of that.

[IKerensky]

I find your fireteam awfully inadequate for the 6th world especially for armor. They aren't even on par with standard Cops units, that laughable.

At least light military armor for everyone, this isn't 1980 anymore. Did you check next gen military armor we are supposed to have ?

And the commlink should be 6 grade, nothing less.

Your average grunt could very cheaply be upgraded so he can carry all this gear, if he isn't an ork or troll to begin with. Forget about not taking the career, thoses armies are 100% professionnal and very experienced, they are very often implicated in live action and not just rehersal. Eurowars, Desertwars, Radwars, Amazonwars heck even Urban Brawl...

Just look at current day military in Irak, they have at last double the armor you mentionned and top of the notch communication far better than civilians ones.

The things about armies is that they like what they do and they usually dont look too closely about how much money they pump into their first line fighters. It is evident all the military weapons are smartlinked by standard, and that everyone in the unit is in a very secure tacnet, monitored by dedicated electronical warfare units and able to call for help magical and mundane backup.

Look in Unwired p.78 to the rating of the exampled Aztlan Army Airbase...

Of course that is for 1st rate Western Armies, traditionnaly Eastern Armies are supposedly less well equipped and Third World even less.

Also your fireteam lack AT capability (at least several discardable rocket launcher) and a dedicated Sniper. About Drone support, the arsenal mention an Ammo/Gear carrier that is supposed to go with the soldiers on the field.

"You got to remember your average grunt has to lug this crap around, so when you stop and consider gear for them think of that."

And consider the supply chain that is behind him and keeping him feed and armed, your average grunt never have to lug more than what he need for the current operation.

[D2F]

I would say an average fire team would be 3 guys with assault rifles (with it being SR all with the grenade launchers, but only 1 magazine of HE minigrenades), 1 clip in the gun and 6 on the belts. Likely pack a few grenades (1 HE, 1 Frag, 2 utility [flare, smoke]), survial knife and for armor I would say fatigues (3/0) or armor vest (6/4) and then survial gear (gasmask, survial kit, medkit, etc) with a mid-range commlink (rating 4, with encrypt, eccm, and analyze)

I would give them Armored jackets instead of armored vests and rating 5 commlinks. They are kmilitary and to me an "Armored Vest" in shadowrun is something to wear under regular clothing (which the rules expressively permit), so I'd hardly consider it a Flak Vest. Also, I would have every Soldier carry a Sidearm (Colt Government L36 or an FN 5-7C) with two extra clips. Other than that, I would agree with your assessment.

[Mäx]

Remember than standard army units are usually above police SWAT team in terms of training and equipement.

I would like to challenge that idea, i would say that except for those few armies in open war at the moment a SWAT-team members see a lot more action then a standrart army units and as such are better trained and more experienced.

[EuroShadow]

I would say (seeing how much resources shadowrunners get in chargen) that shadowrunner team would wipe out similar size military team every time.

But I should add that (as most people already mentioned before) militray has this feature of calling for support in such situations. There is one support that should be immediate (Army hackers in call of emergency should be able jump into grunts commlink immediately from Pentagon and do some hacking from there on shadowrunners team and their gear - and that hacker could definitely call for more backup/agents to overpower opposition) the other support should be quite fast (Astral travelling mage arrives at the place usually quite fast and then makes sure that the shadowrunners do not disappear. Maybe mage can even call some spirit for service if appropriate). Later drones and choppers arrive...

[StealthSigma]

What makes a military dangerous isn't the individual soldier, though, US Army recruitment slogans notwithstanding. The regular military guys could/should have a transport, could/should have better communications and information, could/should have air/drone support, could/should have comprehensive tactical computer assistance, and -- most importantly -- are part of an army.

You don't really run into a fire team (4-5 guys) by itself, unless they are Tir Ghost, or Ares Firewatch, or Sioux Wildcats, or any flavor of real-life badasses. When you're dealing with everyday run of the mill grunts, if you're lucky you run into a platoon or two.

And a platoon or two of guys that train together, know how to lay down suppressive fire while the rest of them flank, all have grenades and are used to using them, have a clear chain of command for a solid "groupthink" response to a tactical situation, etc, etc, etc? That's a whole different ball of wax.

I have to agree with this. Shadowrunners won't typically run into a single army fire team, they will be outnumbered four to one in the best situation. The only time they run into military grunts in equal numbers would be when running into milspec specops and that squad will have skills and firepower on par with or better that the runners (in most cases). Unless you're extremely ballsy, the default strategy when you run into military should be evade and escape. It doesn't matter if you could take on an entire platoon on your own. There will be other military elements in the area and they will respond to your aggression.

--

I would like to challenge that idea, i would say that except for those few armies in open war at the moment a SWAT-team members see a lot more action then a standrart army units and as such are better trained and more experienced.

I would agree. I would place SWAT teams above basic military grunts. SWAT teams are more highly trained to operate as a team compared to infantry, but you have to consider that SWAT teams are trained to clear buildings, not operate in open environments. In a closed environment, I would say a SWAT team is more dangerous due to their tactical training. In an open environment I would call the infantry more dangerous due to their superior firepower.

[nezumi]

Right now it costs somewhere between $200k-$400k to support a single active soldier out in the field. This includes the costs of training, salary, equipment, plus the nine guys behind him providing support services. Balking at a $10k piece of armor or a $2k smartlink 'because it costs too much' doesn't make sense.

Each deployed, front-line troop should have, at minimum, the best medkit available, a full set of hardened combat armor, heavily armored, warded transportation, heavy EW support, heavy tactical information support, a well-established network of observation drones, magical support, vehicle support, and at least half their number in combat drones (not necessarily rigged, but available for checking around corners). A large number of grunts are going to have at least some combat experience - in the Desert Wars, or in another context. Militaries have shrunk, but their need has grown, so expect these to be volunteer armies where the focus is on having good people rather than lots of people.

In 'deadliest warrior' fashion with equal numbers of runners and grunts, but everyone's toys, the runners would probably win - narrowly. Why? Partially because the runners use unconventional tools and tactics, partially because they're better trained, and partially because five grunts can't take advantage of the whole infrastructure they're trained to rely on. But that sort of thing won't happen. If the runners are fighting grunts, they're fighting a LOT of grunts, plus the 500 guys behind the grunts who provide all that infrastructure. The runners may escape, and may achieve a particular objective, but they won't 'win'.

[augmentin]

Overly long post from a former grunt below:

[ Spoiler ]

I was a grunt (though granted, it was Marine Corps and we regularly out-ran, out-shot, and generally out-did "Rangers." - though "Rangers have undoubtedly better PR.)

Here's the thing: When thinking of regular infantry, you have to realize they are mass produced. Everyone's extra mag is stored in the same place. Everyone's medkit has the same ingredients. Everyone's using the same ammo, the same tactics, knows the same hand signals (in 2072 the same AROs?). They all eat together, sleep together, chase skirt together, get in trouble together. Their key advantages are homogeneity, standardization, ethos (runners do it for $, grunts to it for the guys on his left and right and for love of country), and oh, yeah, numbers.

Unless tactics have changed significantly in the 10 years since I was out, no regular infantry unit goes anywhere significant in units smaller than battalion level. It's just too logistically difficult to send smaller units to different geographies. A battalion consists of:

• a headquarters element,
• a (heavy) weapons company, and
• three line companies.

Each line company consists of:

• a headquarters element,
• a (heavy) weapons platoon, and
• three line platoons.

Each line platoon consists of:

• a headquarters element, and
• three squads.

Each squad consists of:

• a squad sergeant,
• and three fire teams.

Each fire team consists of:

• a fire team leader,
• a rifleman,
• a automatic gunner, and
• an assistant automatic gunner.

Generally any significant patrols is made up of at least a platoon. That means:

• an officer,
• a staff NCO,
• a medic,
• a radio operator (2072: hacker),
• 12 NCOs, and
• 27 enlisted men.

Total firepower:

• 9 medium machine guns,
• 9 assault rifles with underbarrell grenade launchers,
• 23 assault rifles with bayonets,
• two pistols,
• one radio (commlink) and
• one significant medkit.

How would a typical shadowrun squad fair? Depends on the level of professionalism. As has been mentioned previously, the key advantages are concentration of magic and surprise.

For surprise, standard ambush tactics dictate a charge if contact is within 50 meters. For that reason, the shadowrun squad would need to either inflict crippling damages in the opening combat turn or assault from more than 50 meters away with overwhelming firepower.

For magical concentration, due to scarcity, I would imagine military mages would be concentrated at the battalion and regimental levels and server primarily intelligence gathering, healing, and fire support roles. In other words, a platoon is going on patrol through dangerous terrain? Expect a projecting mage on overwatch duty and as insurance against signal damage. Communication is the lifeblood of the infantry. If the run into magical trouble? Expect a quick call for help to the command post and multiple bound spirits of varying force to show up with orders like "protect anyone wearing this uniform." Heck, I could even envision units that have been in the @#$% for a while to have long term bound spirits who can pick out the unit members just by astral signature.

Anyway, that's my take. You're looking at homogeneity, standardization, tactics, numbers, and ethos vs. magical concentration and surprise.

Short version:
I expect the grunts unit would win except against very smart shadowrunners, who probably would be smart enough not to take on a platoon of regular infantry to begin with. The smarter shadowrunners would probably use tactics much like we are seeing Iraq: IEDs, use of the civilian population, and very, very rarely guerilla skirmishes and even then, mostly against their logistical support units.

EDIT: added bullets for readability

This post has been edited by augmentin: Jul 12 2010, 02:21 PM

[Snow_Fox]

Since we're talking regular soldiers and not spec forces I'd say one on one the average runner will beat the average soldier in shooting and hand to hand. runners are most likely better at improvising and working on the fly while soldiers will have better plans and fall back points in areas and objectives they know.

Basic soldiers have the advantage in orgnaization, numbers and the ease with which they can get stuff. All the soldiers should have uniform weapons which means trading out mags and knowing what the limitations are. Most runners use what works for them and don't co-ordinate weapons that tightly with their team. More than anything the soldiers organization and communication, like Police, will give them the upper hand in a prolonged fight with runners.

[Yerameyahu]

Ditto: soldiers will always have overwhelming numbers/materiel/intel/support.

[SkepticInc]

Overly long post from a former grunt below:

[ Spoiler ]

I was a grunt (though granted, it was Marine Corps and we regularly out-ran, out-shot, and generally out-did "Rangers." - though "Rangers have undoubtedly better PR.)

Here's the thing: When thinking of regular infantry, you have to realize they are mass produced. Everyone's extra mag is stored in the same place. Everyone's medkit has the same ingredients. Everyone's using the same ammo, the same tactics, knows the same hand signals (in 2072 the same AROs?). They all eat together, sleep together, chase skirt together, get in trouble together. Their key advantages are homogeneity, standardization, ethos (runners do it for $, grunts to it for the guys on his left and right and for love of country), and oh, yeah, numbers.

Unless tactics have changed significantly in the 10 years since I was out, no regular infantry unit goes anywhere significant in units smaller than battalion level. It's just too logistically difficult to send smaller units to different geographies. A battalion consists of:

• a headquarters element,
• a (heavy) weapons company, and
• three line companies.

Each line company consists of:

• a headquarters element,
• a (heavy) weapons platoon, and
• three line platoons.

Each line platoon consists of:

• a headquarters element, and
• three squads.

Each squad consists of:

• a squad sergeant,
• and three fire teams.

Each fire team consists of:

• a fire team leader,
• a rifleman,
• a automatic gunner, and
• an assistant automatic gunner.

Generally any significant patrols is made up of at least a platoon. That means:

• an officer,
• a staff NCO,
• a medic,
• a radio operator (2072: hacker),
• 12 NCOs, and
• 27 enlisted men.

Total firepower:

• 9 medium machine guns,
• 9 assault rifles with underbarrell grenade launchers,
• 23 assault rifles with bayonets,
• two pistols,
• one radio (commlink) and
• one significant medkit.

How would a typical shadowrun squad fair? Depends on the level of professionalism. As has been mentioned previously, the key advantages are concentration of magic and surprise.

For surprise, standard ambush tactics dictate a charge if contact is within 50 meters. For that reason, the shadowrun squad would need to either inflict crippling damages in the opening combat turn or assault from more than 50 meters away with overwhelming firepower.

For magical concentration, due to scarcity, I would imagine military mages would be concentrated at the battalion and regimental levels and server primarily intelligence gathering, healing, and fire support roles. In other words, a platoon is going on patrol through dangerous terrain? Expect a projecting mage on overwatch duty and as insurance against signal damage. Communication is the lifeblood of the infantry. If the run into magical trouble? Expect a quick call for help to the command post and multiple bound spirits of varying force to show up with orders like "protect anyone wearing this uniform." Heck, I could even envision units that have been in the @#$% for a while to have long term bound spirits who can pick out the unit members just by astral signature.

Anyway, that's my take. You're looking at homogeneity, standardization, tactics, numbers, and ethos vs. magical concentration and surprise.

Short version:
I expect the grunts unit would win except against very smart shadowrunners, who probably would be smart enough not to take on a platoon of regular infantry to begin with. The smarter shadowrunners would probably use tactics much like we are seeing Iraq: IEDs, use of the civilian population, and very, very rarely guerilla skirmishes and even then, mostly against their logistical support units.

EDIT: added bullets for readability

Anyone want to take on the challenge of statting a battalion for 2070? You'll get Dumpshock NERPS™ points.

[D2F]

Anyone want to take on the challenge of statting a battalion for 2070? You'll get Dumpshock NERPS™ points.

Don't tempt me =)

[StealthSigma]

Anyone want to take on the challenge of statting a battalion for 2070? You'll get Dumpshock NERPS™ points.

So... for t3h lulz?

And by statted out do you mean individual stats/equipment for 16 officers, 16 staff NCO, 16 medics, 16 radio operators, 192 NCOs, and 432 enlisted men, plus the command staff for each level (Battalion, Company, and Platoon)? Or can we be lazy and assign the same stats/skills for each unique loadout?

Note, that if I have the command structure right for commissioned officers...

x1 Colonel/Lt. Colonel
x4 Major/Captain
x16 Lieutenants/2nd Lieutenants

That of course ignores any officers in the headquarters staff....

[Yerameyahu]

You should also stat out all the noncombat and civilian workers supporting them, the military-industrial complex, and the nation housing it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)