[X] My Assistant

[Dumori]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif) This blog sure made me laugh. I wonder; if the Germans are so tough, how did they lose WW2? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Stupidity. They end up adding another front voluntarily. Where as they could have moped up one then the other.

[Runner Smurf]

On prevalence of high-rating software in the military:

-- The military almost NEVER does its own software development. They still pay licensing fees for Windows for example. The US military in particular fobs almost of its R&D to private companies and universities.

IRL, anything that the DoD pays to develop they have an unlimited license to the technology, generally speaking. Contracting Regulations 101. So, if they pay Microsoft ¥50M to develop a Firewall app at whatever obscene rating they want, then they can copy it willy-nilly. Sure, they buy individual copies of Windows, but they didn't pay for that R&D.

On augmentation.

-- Why? There's pretty much no "big ticket" advantage that can't be replicated by a few thousand nuyen in wearable electronics. That's been the case since Shadowrun, First Edition. The sole exception was wired reflexes, which are both monstrously expensive and monstrously overpowered (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Mostly agree - I don't think they'd do a lot of anything that could be taken care of other ways. But the sheer utility of things like wired reflexes are serious force multipliers. Mind you, they might rather spend the money on combat drugs, but they'd be very concerned about long-term medical complications. The other major category to consider are those things that increase survivability/combat effectiveness: trauma dampers, bone lacing, pain editors...well, maybe not pain editors.

-- I can't see any military taking on the long-term issues with augmentation without good reason. Not only are their health issues (surgery, Essence costs, maintenance requirements) but if you give everyone wired reflexes (for example) then you have these guys out in the civilian population at some point.

Considering that we take on lifetime medical care for all of our soldiers currently, I don't think it's that unrealistic. And there is plenty of motivation for things like Move By Wire or Wired Reflexes. Yes, them coming back into society is a concern, but so is having people with combat training running around, which societies have dealt with (more or less successfully) for centuries. And with the prevalence of security forces out there that would love to hire wired soldiers, there would be serious market demand for augmented retired soldiers. Of course, you could also just disable the augmentation when someone leaves. I think the obvious solution is that augmentation would be limited to career types. As in "if you get wired, your signing up for a 20 year stint."

And as another point, consider some of the military/security focused cybersuites in Augmentation. The SK Cyberlogician Deluxe Military Version argues strongly for significant modification - particularly of officers.

On use of spirits:

-- I find that dubious. That spirit is doing nothing useful most of the time that platoon is doing its thing. You're better off using the limited magical assets available to dole out a spirit as a form of fire support.

Fair point. I think it would depend on the tactical situation. If you anticipated opposing mages, I think you'd be seriously interested in Magical Guard for counterspelling...which I just realized only Guardian spirits can do. Good point. My guess is you'd use them for counter-spirit ops, and as a high-speed response/support force.

On using spirits to guard vehicles:

-- The corps have a competitive advantage in recruiting mages, and they don't seem to do this. So why the rump national governments?

I think this is where how people play the game comes into play. In games I run, I pretty much assume that anything worth more than about ¥300k that could be under threat is going to have a spirit escorting it. And anything over a million is going to always have a spirit with it on protection. If companies have mages on staff, paying the costs to bind spirits is pretty trivial, and provide serious insurance. Particularly Guardian spirits.

On magical asset ratios.

-- That could be a sign of serious manpower issues actually. 10 mages in a force of 100 might look more magically capable compared to 100 mages in a force of 10,000 if you don't look closely.

True. It all depends on how you employ them too. Crickey. Think of how many spirits 100 mages could put out there...no wonder the Yucatan went nuts!

On artillery:

-- They probably can't or WON'T exploit a fire support advantage in every case. Rules of engagement are an issue, especially when they have to throw this stuff around in inhabited areas or in places where that sort of thing could really piss off Awakened critters best left alone.

To be sure. Depends entirely on the circumstances that put runners up against combat troops. Considering the advances in precision guided munitions, and the prevalence of ultra-precision strike systems like lasers, calling for fire missions might be easier in 2070 in a lot of cases than it is now.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

Poor strategic decision making and suboptimal equipment logistics (many different panzer-versions etc., poor exchangeability of spare parts etc.). Their MG42 still rocks in various modern incarnations today.

The hard russian Winter and the high Gas-Price . .

Stupidity. They end up adding another front voluntarily. Where as they could have moped up one then the other.

Really? I thought the germans lost the war because of Michael Jackson's death, or the iPad not supporting flash, or the vuvuzelas, or... you get the picture. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Kliko]

you get the picture. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

We get the picture alright (IMG:style_emoticons/default/embarrassed.gif)

[stevebugge]

Really? I thought the germans lost the war because of Michael Jackson's death, or the iPad not supporting flash, or the vuvuzelas, or... you get the picture. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Vuvuzelas: You can pretty much blame anything on them

[LurkerOutThere]

Ok a couple of things.

Considering the number of characters i've had over the years that want to justify their level of ware, skills, etc with "i'm former military" I have reasonably assumed in my head that the military is some very frightening stuff. I'm actua

Also just about to this point on magical assetts as well, because if PC's reflect the game world then a lot more magical support and in better quality needs to pop up.

/end rant


To the guy who presumes your average swat team is better trained then your average military and potentially sees a lot more action, your wrong on a number of points. First off one of the basic quick steps for law enforcement selection in many municipalities is prior military service. One of the basic selection criteria for swat officers (part time or full time) is prior infantry or "special" forces time. Now why would they do that if their guys are so amazingly trained? The answer is because their not. What swat does in the vast majority of situations can basically be summed up as RBS(Really boring shit) hostage negotiations, overwhelming firepower ops, etc etc. Their entire doctrine and tactics is based on them having more numbers and better gear and sniper support, not being elite superbadass. In other words they are paramilitary to be sure but acting like their training or ability is way above that of the military is false.

At any rate as others have said milspec forces have always been a bogeyman that has never been stated in the "stats will kill it" area but on the other hand a tiget that doesn't use it's teetth, and gets mauled by dragons to show how tough dragons are REPEATEDLY, isn't very scary. This is yet another reason to have the Azzie's roll through and kill Ghostwalker.

[Stahlseele]

Really? I thought the germans lost the war because of Michael Jackson's death, or the iPad not supporting flash, or the vuvuzelas, or... you get the picture. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

If you had heard that answer to that question in german, you could be really offended by my answer . .

[Arclight]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif) This blog sure made me laugh. I wonder; if the Germans are so tough, how did they lose WW2? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Because our political leadership always sucks. That, and we never won a war again after fielding a navy ... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

If you had heard that answer to that question in german, you could be really offended by my answer . .

I don't know any german besides kaput and danke. Send me a pm with your answer and I'll tell you if I would be offended or not.

[Nath]

Hasn't fluff had the M22A3 the main rifle of the UCAS since the Street Sam Catalog?

The Street Samurai Catalog says the M22A2 was a contender in the UCAS squad rifle trial in 2050. It has never been stated if it won, though Fields of Fire refers to the "highly successful M22A2".

Isn't Steyr a sub of Ares. I know HK is SK.

I never seen any reference to HK owning S-K, and nobdy ever provided one (even in a German-only book). There is no reference I know of for Ares owning Steyr either.
There are HK and Steyr products on sales in the Ares Winter Catalog and Ares Security Catalog 2050 (the contents of the Street Samurai Catalog), but there are also Renraku-owned SCK and Monobe-owned FN Herstal.

The Marine Corps is 6% of DoD's budget, but

• 16% of the U.S.'s maneuver battalions,
• 15% of the U.S.'s attack aircraft, and
• 19% of the U.S.'s attack helicopters.

The average Marine costs $20,000 less than the next closest service man.

For that 6 percent, you also get 0 percent of the U.S.'s nuclear capacity and 0 percent of the U.S.'s communications, positionning and spy satellites. Even if the USMC is really more cost-effective than the Army (and I'm willing to agree they are), those maths are pretty unfair.

Actually, last I read the strongest compliment of ANY Corp was around the 2 batallion mark and that spot was held in tandem by Ares and S-K.
I haven't read Corp Guide, so my info might be outdated.

That sound weird, because in SOX there are batallion sized groups fighting the Radwars...

I think Corpo strength should be at last one or two divisionnals units.

I thought Ares had more than 2 battallions stationed in Silicon Valley during the 60's alone.

Corporate Shadowfiles says Ares and Aztechnology have a regiment, S-K a battalion, Fuchi and MCT a company. Shiawase and Yamatetsu don't have any, and Renraku classifies Red Samurai, tanks and air fighters as security troops. Those are permanent military units. If you count security units, Corporate Download says the Aztechnology Corporate Security number 150'000 worldwide (including a single battalion of jaguar guards). Year of the Comet suggests the 25000 soldiers fielded by Ares in San Fransisco area (described as "pretty large" for a corporat presence) are mostly KE regular personnel equipped by Ares Arms. That sort of "reserve" may also be used to compete in the Desert Wars and Radwars.


I still don't get how Bin Laden escaped the US armed forces so long. I mean, he has a Body of 4 at best, and he's not even wearing an armored vest (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Mäx]

To the guy who presumes your average swat team is better trained then your average military and potentially sees a lot more action, your wrong on a number of points. First off one of the basic quick steps for law enforcement selection in many municipalities is prior military service. One of the basic selection criteria for swat officers (part time or full time) is prior infantry or "special" forces time. Now why would they do that if their guys are so amazingly trained? The answer is because their not. What swat does in the vast majority of situations can basically be summed up as RBS(Really boring shit) hostage negotiations, overwhelming firepower ops, etc etc. Their entire doctrine and tactics is based on them having more numbers and better gear and sniper support, not being elite superbadass. In other words they are paramilitary to be sure but acting like their training or ability is way above that of the military is false.

So first you say many of the SWAT are former spec ops and then you claim they aren't any better trained then your avarage military grunt, that a pretty big contradiction you know. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Stahlseele]

I don't know any german besides kaput and danke. Send me a pm with your answer and I'll tell you if I would be offended or not.

as you wish . .

[SkepticInc]

You know how we could come up with a true, correct, and verifiable answer for how a military should be constructed? Build 'em and fight 'em on Dumpshock. Make a new thread called Desert Wars and have people duke it out with their military squads. We would have to decide on an amount of cash to build the squads with, and after squads are built and fought, we can move on to artillery support, then add in tanks, close air support, etc.

You know you want to make SR into a wargame. What's the worst that can happen? Heh.

Shout out some engagement rules ideas.

[D2F]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif) This blog sure made me laugh. I wonder; if the Germans are so tough, how did they lose WW2? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Numbers and a complete idiot as military leader.

[Apathy]

People have been talking about organizational layout and equipment levels, but what about stats? Here's my take:

Baseline assumptions:

[ Spoiler ]

• The average dockworker, construction worker, garbage man, or park ranger (heavily physical jobs) has mental stats averaging 2 and physical stats averaging 3.
• The average receptionist, data analyst, programmer, or manager (primarily mental jobs) has mental stats averaging 3 and physical stats averaging 2.
• In general, people of higher rank will have higher mental attributes and skills because if they didn't they wouldn't achieve the promotions.
• Conversly, people of higher rank will have lower levels in menial competencies because they spend their time managing, not doing.
• Older people will have lower physical stats and higher mental stats than younger people, representing hard-won experience but less vigor.

• PVTs, PV2s, SPCs, and ROTC candidates will be in their early to mid- twenties. Bod3, Str3, Agi3, Rea3, Log2, Int2, Wil2, Cha2, Athletics3, Perception 2, Job-specific skills (Unarmed, Rifle, Driving, Gunnery, etc)3.
  
• SGTs, SSGs, LTs, and CPTs will be in their late twenties to early thirties. Bod3, Str3, Agi3, Rea3, Log3, Int3 Wil3, Cha3. Athletics3, Perception 3, Job-specific skill (Unarmed, Rifle, Driving, Gunnery, etc)2.5, Leadership2.5, Tactics2.5, Navigation2.5, Logistics2.
  
• SFCs, 1SGTs, MAJs, and LTCs will be in their mid-to late thirties or early forties. Bod3, Str2.5, Agi2, Rea2, Log3.5, Int3.5 Wil3.5, Cha3. Athletics2, Perception 3, Job-specific skill (Unarmed, Rifle, Driving, Gunnery, etc)2, Leadership3.5, Tactics3.5, Navigation3, Logistics3.

[Edit] For more elite units like Special Forces add 1-2 points on physical stats, 1 point on mental stats, and 1-2 points on skills.

[Yerameyahu]

I dunno if those skill ratings all match up with SR4, p119, but they're close. Mostly too low.

[stevebugge]

You know how we could come up with a true, correct, and verifiable answer for how a military should be constructed? Build 'em and fight 'em on Dumpshock. Make a new thread called Desert Wars and have people duke it out with their military squads. We would have to decide on an amount of cash to build the squads with, and after squads are built and fought, we can move on to artillery support, then add in tanks, close air support, etc.

You know you want to make SR into a wargame. What's the worst that can happen? Heh.

Shout out some engagement rules ideas.

Next thing you know Catalyst will be on here announcing a Desert Wars Table Top Strategic Miniatures Game...

Would you buy it?

[Stahlseele]

Sounds kinda like battletech to me . .

[MortVent]

Next thing you know Catalyst will be on here announcing a Desert Wars Table Top Strategic Miniatures Game...

Would you buy it?

Will it have cool minis or the cheap paper markers...

They did DMZ if you remember

[stevebugge]

Will it have cool minis or the cheap paper markers...

They did DMZ if you remember

I thought FASA did DMZ

Yeah for the moment let's assume they do it right and partner with someone who makes quality miniatures (I think they used Ral Partha before, not sure they still exist though)

[SkepticInc]

Next thing you know Catalyst will be on here announcing a Desert Wars Table Top Strategic Miniatures Game...

Would you buy it?

Hmm...

I'm going to really enjoy war gaming if 3D plastic polymer printers ever get cheap enough to have at home. If I just had to pay a small license fee for a particular set of figures and then print it myself, I'd be all there.

[stevebugge]

As a Forum Housekeeping favor to the admins I'm going to kill my tangent line of discusssion here and start a new thread on it, there still seems to be plenty of momentum for the original topic so rather than Derail I'll start fresh

[Stahlseele]

Hmm...

I'm going to really enjoy war gaming if 3D plastic polymer printers ever get cheap enough to have at home. If I just had to pay a small license fee for a particular set of figures and then print it myself, I'd be all there.

And this is why it won't happen.
It opens the gates for piracy!

[SkepticInc]

And this is why it won't happen.
It opens the gates for piracy!

Seriously. Corps have gotta find a better business model that lets them make money when people can make copies of information and goods. Fighting it and complaining about it are gigantic wastes of time and effort. Do you want to make money in a world where people can print off plastic figures? Stop trying to charge an arm and a leg for a model that someone whipped up in a CAD program in a couple of hours and start finding a way to make a community for people to use that model in, and a way to charge for that. Find a way to make money off of things that cannot be stolen.

I'm sure you were being funny (and it was), it just also smacked me square in the peeves.

[The Grue Master]

In that vein, I really enjoyed the description of Desktop Manufacturing in Arsenal. It basically says 'the corps won...for a while.'