[X] My Assistant

[kzt]

Getting your MD via the Bundeswehr means signing up for 17 years, and it does sell.

Wow, that's worse terms than the US military, and US med school is a lot more bucks.

"Upon receiving the doctor of medicine degree, officer graduates are required by law to serve on active duty in the Army, Navy, Air Force or United States Public Health Service for seven years. Time spent in graduate medical education (internship or residency) does not count toward the payback."

[D2F]

Wow, that's worse terms than the US military, and US med school is a lot more bucks.

"Upon receiving the doctor of medicine degree, officer graduates are required by law to serve on active duty in the Army, Navy, Air Force or United States Public Health Service for seven years. Time spent in graduate medical education (internship or residency) does not count toward the payback."

That's about the same as 17 years. Medical education until you actually get your MD takes about 10 years over here.

[Venom]

I think by 2070 there will be no grunts in any modern army - grunts would be directly replaced by drones the same way that pilots are going to be replaced by pilotless drones in the near future.

Human army members would all be specialists - riggers/magical backup/tacticians/command/mechanics/logistics.

Shadowrunners would probably never meet anyone other than special ops on missions as drone/spirit perimeter defences would chase them off before they ever reached the core of human personnel.

You might still find some 3rd world countries using human troops but these would be ill equipped.

[Doc Chase]

I think by 2070 there will be no grunts in any modern army - grunts would be directly replaced by drones the same way that pilots are going to be replaced by pilotless drones in the near future.

Human army members would all be specialists - riggers/magical backup/tacticians/command/mechanics/logistics.

Shadowrunners would probably never meet anyone other than special ops on missions as drone/spirit perimeter defences would chase them off before they ever reached the core of human personnel.

You might still find some 3rd world countries using human troops but these would be ill equipped.

Eh, not so much. You're always going to need the (meta)human touch to react to combat situations on the fly. Having a huge crew of slaved drones is going to delay your response tactics. You're always going to have grunts.

[Venom]

Eh, not so much. You're always going to need the (meta)human touch to react to combat situations on the fly. Having a huge crew of slaved drones is going to delay your response tactics. You're always going to have grunts.

Isnt the reverse more likely to be true? Drones controlled by a bunch of riggers in a hardened bunker with direct access to the latest situation data would exhibit an ability to co-ordinate and react to new situations thats just not possible in human troops in real combat situations.

You now have a grunt that can be easily fixed or replaced, knows no fear, is immune to biological/chemical weapons and cant be captured or killed for any morale gain by the other side.

You honestly think they would have human troops in Afghanistan if they had access to SR style drones? It would sure make battling in far flung places a lot easier to sell politically.

[Doc Chase]

Isnt the reverse more likely to be true? Drones controlled by a bunch of riggers in a hardened bunker with direct access to the latest situation data would exhibit an ability to co-ordinate and react to new situations thats just not possible in human troops in real combat situations.

You now have a grunt that can be easily fixed or replaced, knows no fear, is immune to biological/chemical weapons and cant be captured or killed for any morale gain by the other side.

You honestly think they would have human troops in Afghanistan if they had access to SR style drones? It would sure make battling in far flung places a lot easier to sell politically.

Yes, I do.

A drone isn't going to be able to communicate with the Afghan tribal leaders.

A drone isn't going to be able to control and interrogate prisoners.

A drone isn't going to be able to be much more than a paperweight if the radio frequency is discovered and jammed.

Most of all, a drone isn't going to be able to act on gut instinct that something about the situation is wrong. Just because we've been dropping ordinance in Pakistan via a group of A1C's in an air-conditioned trailer in Nevada doesn't mean they're the end-all of future combat. The advantage of combined arms was learned over ninety years ago, and it's a lesson not liable to be forgotten.

[Yerameyahu]

Whoa whoa WHOA. A drone can TOTALLY control and interrogate prisoners. And they're AI drones, what radio frequency? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Worst case, you'd have field-riggers instead of bunker-riggers.

[LurkerOutThere]

FYI modern day drone pilots are officer rated pilots not A1C's. There was a big stink about that a while back.

[TommyTwoToes]

A drone isn't going to be able to be much more than a paperweight if the radio frequency is discovered and jammed.

If I understand the EW rules correctly, Jamming lowers the effective signal strength (hardware dependant) while ECCM lowers the jammer strength (software dependant). It seems like the security solution to keeping your drone network up is to install low signal strength communications in them with high rating ECCM programs. The enemy would need to be very close to the drone to spoof/hack and your troops (who are already close by) can issue command still.

[stevebugge]

Isnt the reverse more likely to be true? Drones controlled by a bunch of riggers in a hardened bunker with direct access to the latest situation data would exhibit an ability to co-ordinate and react to new situations thats just not possible in human troops in real combat situations.

You now have a grunt that can be easily fixed or replaced, knows no fear, is immune to biological/chemical weapons and cant be captured or killed for any morale gain by the other side.

You honestly think they would have human troops in Afghanistan if they had access to SR style drones? It would sure make battling in far flung places a lot easier to sell politically.

Yes they would have to send real people, try talking to local village elders in hellmand with a Steel Lynx and see how much local support and cooperation you get. If I'm your GM the Steel Lynx Pilot program does not come with auto softs for either Pashtu or Local Social Customs

[Venom]

A drone isn't going to be able to communicate with the Afghan tribal leaders.

Well strictly speaking you could - you arent just restricted to using combat drones - you could have some human form drones running a software form of that emoticon stuff that gives big social role bonuses?

The main thing drones cant do easily is stuff requiring fine motor control - if you were clever designing your drones in a modular fashion you could probably fix drones using other drones...

[Doc Chase]

FYI modern day drone pilots are officer rated pilots not A1C's. There was a big stink about that a while back.

How far back? I knew a SRA who got fast-tracked to SSGT for his Predator piloting, that would've been back in '02-'03.

[Doc Chase]

Well strictly speaking you could - you arent just restricted to using combat drones - you could have some human form drones running a software form of that emoticon stuff that gives big social role bonuses?

The emotitoys you're thinking about augment social rolls - they do not replace them. Trying to get a human form drone to do your facework for you is going to end badly due to the Uncanny Valley - they're going to put people off and torpedo your mission before you truly get to start it.

The main thing drones cant do easily is stuff requiring fine motor control - if you were clever designing your drones in a modular fashion you could probably fix drones using other drones...

As fun as the WALL-E universe was, you did notice that of the tens of thousands of units they left on-planet only one survived, yes? He also cannibalized a lot of units over that 800 years to keep running.

It boils down to this: You're advocating the wonders of technology to replace everything, as others have advocated the wonders of magic to do the same. It's putting all your eggs in one basket, and once an effective countermeasure is developed then your one-trick pony has lost the race.

[Yerameyahu]

Yeah, no one said 'drones' meant 'Steel Lynxes only'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[Dumori]

Drones lacking fine motor control my ass. Modern robotics is out performaning human dexterity now. They can move so much faster and so exactly I'd say its gross motor skills where robotics is lacking and not heavy.

[stevebugge]

Yeah, no one said 'drones' meant 'Steel Lynxes only'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

That's actually another point in favor of real people, versatility. A well trained soldier can be one part local ambassador, one part but kicker, and one part builder.

You need a whole lot of drones, all different, to do all of those things.

[Venom]

It boils down to this: You're advocating the wonders of technology to replace everything, as others have advocated the wonders of magic to do the same. It's putting all your eggs in one basket, and once an effective countermeasure is developed then your one-trick pony has lost the race.

Not really - as I said in the original post you would still use humans but in specialised roles like magical support and special ops.

I just dont see the need for fragile human grunts in such a scenario when you have access to drones/spirits as cannon fodder.

[Dumori]

I see nimrods being used over lynxes. Easy to deploy where needed can carry a hugely versatile payload, two weapons or one HEAVY weapon before modification, and are faster. Plus they could quite often have surprise on their side. As lynxs are on the ground with the troops and nimrod could hit form another angle entirely.

[Doc Chase]

Not really - as I said in the original post you would still use humans but in specialised roles like magical support and special ops.

I just dont see the need for fragile human grunts in such a scenario when you have access to drones/spirits as cannon fodder.

Keep on truckin', then. It's clear you aren't going to listen to what I have to say. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

Also, this is 2070. Screw 'negotiating with tribals', unless they have Great Ghost magic. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[stevebugge]

Not really - as I said in the original post you would still use humans but in specialised roles like magical support and special ops.

I just dont see the need for fragile human grunts in such a scenario when you have access to drones/spirits as cannon fodder.

In modern frontless wars the whole concept of cannon fodder is almost elminated, every unit may need to be a combat unit at some point (often dictated by enemy behavior) and they all need to be credibly trained. The use of low skill conscripts to bolster numbers is becoming an increasingly uncommon practice, usually used by lower tech armies.

[Doc Chase]

Also, this is 2070. Screw 'negotiating with tribals', unless they have Great Ghost magic. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

The problem is that they do. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[CanRay]

Technology can be beaten by Anti-Technology. This was proven in Vietnam, and is the reason there's still issues in Afganistan and Iraq, despite primitive drones being available there. (UAVs anyone?).

Secondly, there's the emotional issue to deal with. How is a local populous going to feel about troops of "Robots" marching/rolling/flying through the streets as opposed to soldiers that they can relate to, throw chocolates at, bribe, and so on. A "Hearts-and-Minds" portion of warfare that can never be ignored.

Finally, the important thing is that, well, drones are expensive and complex, people are cheap and simple. People are also self-programming and don't need to be patched in the middle of combat. When your drone gets a BSoD in the middle of a firefight, it's not like you can just pull out a back-up, or pick up a dropped rifle that's in the cold, dead hands of a former ally/enemy like a person can. You just hit "Ctrl+Alt+Delete" and hope it reboots fast enough before it gets taken out. ("Never forget that your weapon was made by the lowest bidder." - from Murphy's Laws of Combat.).

[Venom]

Keep on truckin', then. It's clear you aren't going to listen to what I have to say. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

I am listening I just dont agree but your posts have been useful in developing the idea of a drone army.

I think your probably right that in the early stages drones would have very limited roles but that these would quickly expand displacing most of the normal troopers roles.

I think the key issue that would push this is not military but political - no politician wants to see casualties on the news every night.

Using drones the politicians can fight wherever they can afford the drones...

[Yerameyahu]

The thing is, drones get cheaper, and people get fewer. As with *all* things, the answer is certainly in the middle: a mixture. But, it's not because humans are terribly special, it's just economics. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)