[X] My Assistant

[SkepticInc]

So... for t3h lulz?

And by statted out do you mean individual stats/equipment for 16 officers, 16 staff NCO, 16 medics, 16 radio operators, 192 NCOs, and 432 enlisted men, plus the command staff for each level (Battalion, Company, and Platoon)? Or can we be lazy and assign the same stats/skills for each unique loadout?

Note, that if I have the command structure right for commissioned officers...

x1 Colonel/Lt. Colonel
x4 Major/Captain
x16 Lieutenants/2nd Lieutenants

That of course ignores any officers in the headquarters staff....

The post made mention of the grunts being trained and equipped the same, so I imagine officers are similar (I've no military experience, so I can't say for sure at all). I imagine everyone's attributes will be very similar, and they will all have a similar set of baseline skills, but anyone in the command structure and NCOs are going to have specialized skills ("I can type. Can you type?").

Designing a command station would actually be really quite interesting. You will have a poured plascrete structure that is heavily armored and so wired it looks like a creepy matrix octopus, dozens of really large display screens for running a centralized tacnet of at least a dozen fireteams and drones, etc. But I'm an engineer-in-training, so I think of all the cool things that could be done and often miss the financial/logistical limitations. Do we have anyone who works in some form of military that can tell us anything about what this would be like? At least what this would be like that you are allowed to admit to the public?

[Lanlaorn]

It's worth pointing out that the army would have a lot of Orks and Trolls. I imagine all the usual incentives regarding education, etc. are in play in the 2070 recruitment drives and all the poor Orks and Trolls are not only the prime tragets of that kind of campaign, but their physical stats make them great soldiers.

I imagine physical adepts would be immediately recruited into special forces units, considering how scarce they are you wouldn't bother placing them in regular platoons.

[Platinum]

Short version:
I expect the grunts unit would win except against very smart shadowrunners, who probably would be smart enough not to take on a platoon of regular infantry to begin with. The smarter shadowrunners would probably use tactics much like we are seeing Iraq: IEDs, use of the civilian population, and very, very rarely guerilla skirmishes and even then, mostly against their logistical support units.

I can't see shadowrunners do anything but guerilla warfare. If your enemy can't see you, you are less likely to get shot/die. Be mobile, use what your enemy can't. I would also think that most shadowrunner teams would have someone in them with military experience/tactics. I would actually surmise that most shadowrun teams would be at least equal to an elite seal squad or higher.

[Demonic357]

The post made mention of the grunts being trained and equipped the same, so I imagine officers are similar (I've no military experience, so I can't say for sure at all). I imagine everyone's attributes will be very similar, and they will all have a similar set of baseline skills, but anyone in the command structure and NCOs are going to have specialized skills ("I can type. Can you type?").

Designing a command station would actually be really quite interesting. You will have a poured plascrete structure that is heavily armored and so wired it looks like a creepy matrix octopus, dozens of really large display screens for running a centralized tacnet of at least a dozen fireteams and drones, etc. But I'm an engineer-in-training, so I think of all the cool things that could be done and often miss the financial/logistical limitations. Do we have anyone who works in some form of military that can tell us anything about what this would be like? At least what this would be like that you are allowed to admit to the public?

You pretty well nail it with the skills. Everyone gets the same basic first aid, weapons familiarization, call for fire, etc. training. Career NCOs and officers go to more military schools and get specialized.

Just for reference on that command station look at the wikipedia for Blue Force Tracker or the FBCB2, they are the the central hubs of any TOC (Tactical Operations Center).

There's also the Land Warrior system, which got fielded in Iraq a few years ago by a Stryker unit. It's basically a heads up display of battlefield info with live-update capability.

This is all public domain stuff from wikipedia, so try to imagine what is really out there and classified right now, then advance it 60 years (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

It's worth pointing out that the army would have a lot of Orks and Trolls. I imagine all the usual incentives regarding education, etc. are in play in the 2070 recruitment drives and all the poor Orks and Trolls are not only the prime tragets of that kind of campaign, but their physical stats make them great soldiers.

I imagine physical adepts would be immediately recruited into special forces units, considering how scarce they are you wouldn't bother placing them in regular platoons.

Agreed. Every military would love to have the toughness and strength of people like Orks and Trolls. Besides, if a country considers that Orks and Trolls become adults faster, that means that you can have more soldiers faster.

[Kliko]

Yeah, thats what we used to call BattleTac^tm back in sr3. Who needs chrome when you can equip your grunt with a BattleTac^tm-receiver, a helmet and a set of goggles?

[Warlordtheft]

I've always run the maxim "If runners are ever going up against the military, some thing has gone horribly wrong." Runners are generally better on a 1 for one basis, but the problem here is that regular military can bring alot more to bear on the target. Take the mage example. In some countries it is incorporated at the platoon or even squad level. But for them if they need help, they can call their fellow mages in other units for help. A runner does not have that option. A rigger may also be at the platoon level, and they may provide the drone support and call in outher riggers should it be needed. Furthermore APDS is the standard ammo for them, laser and gauss weapons are possible weapons that may also be employed, meaning they are leathal in the extreme.

In short--Runners + Military Opposition = (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dead.gif) Runners.

[Stahlseele]

Well, in a one on one situation, i expect most runners to simply wipe the floor with the army guys.
The Army-Grunts are supposed to be just that. Grunts and jack of all trades, while the shadowrunner usually is an extremely accomplished specialist in his field of choice . . And probably has some nice equipment too . . Just look at some of the threads around dumpshock, some of the builts in there are this close to being a complete army platoon all by their lone some self . .

[StealthSigma]

Well, in a one on one situation, i expect most runners to simply wipe the floor with the army guys.
The Army-Grunts are supposed to be just that. Grunts and jack of all trades, while the shadowrunner usually is an extremely accomplished specialist in his field of choice . . And probably has some nice equipment too . . Just look at some of the threads around dumpshock, some of the builts in there are this close to being a complete army platoon all by their lone some self . .

I don't think anyone is contesting that a group of runners could wipe a single fire team or squad of soldiers. The problem is when the other elements of the battalion begin deploying against the runners because the runners weren't able to wipe out the squad before they could call in for backup or that the runners are out there. You can quickly get turned into a fine red mist in cross fire, drone fire, artillery fire, or close air support.

[D2F]

I can't see shadowrunners do anything but guerilla warfare. If your enemy can't see you, you are less likely to get shot/die. Be mobile, use what your enemy can't. I would also think that most shadowrunner teams would have someone in them with military experience/tactics. I would actually surmise that most shadowrun teams would be at least equal to an elite seal squad or higher.

I disagree. The difference is in training, drill, equipment and intelligence. While Runners may be able to field comparable equipment in certain cases, they are not playing in the same Ballpark when it comes to actual Firepower.

Ares MP Laser systems, Thunderstruck Gauss Rifles, Close air support, Drone support, anchored spells...

Even on the defensive side, many Runners will fall short of the military assault armor the opposition would bring.

And having one guy in the team with military experience is going to amount to jack squat if you're going up against a team, where ALL have military training.

Hell, you could take the standard Red Samurai Team straight out of SR4A and give them the military armor they are supposed to wear instead of the regular full body armor and they could ruin the day of most Runner teams. Especially if you factor in additionally available resources, Like drone support and astral overwatch.
And that's just a SECURITY team, not military special forces.

In short: I am fairly confident that SR special Forces could wipe the floor with most Runner teams.

[Yerameyahu]

Naturally.

[BobChuck]

There's one problem I'm seeing with all of this.

Everyone is assuming that the Runners would be up against the U.S. Special Forces of 2072, or whatever. The future equivalent of "the best of the best of the best" of fighting forces out there. OF COURSE most Runner teams will get creamed, it's not even a question. It's like asking if a tricked-out armored car can take a tank - there's no contest. Escape and Evade, maybe, but defeat in anything approaching an even fight? no way.

Thing is, as far as I can tell, the "U.S. Special Forces" or "U.S. Marines" don't exist in 2072. No country has the resources to field forces of this caliper in any significant amount. The Corporations, which are the actual powers in the world, generally don't bother with standing armies - war is expensive.

So, what is actually being compared?

[StealthSigma]

And having one guy in the team with military experience is going to amount to jack squat if you're going up against a team, where ALL have military training.

From a role playing perspective... a character with military experience will help, but not in a combat situation. I still hold that the SOP for runners when coming across military soldiers is the evade and escape. Someone with military experience could -aid- in that.

In short: I am fairly confident that SR special Forces could wipe the floor with most Runner teams.

Oh god yes. For the simple reason that spec ops are skilled straight for combat. If you take your stereotypical team, you're going to have a face and a hacker, both of which will almost certainly lack the combat skills that spec ops have. Only the street sam and possibly the mage will have the combat prowess to go up against spec ops, but you're talking about two versus four at best. Now, if you have a "legendary" crew of runners, then yeah, maybe they can spoil the fun of spec ops but most runners will be outclassed meeting up with them, just for the simple fact that they're going to be in a numerically inferior position, and if they hole up....

Well, artillery and other heavy weaponry could be used.

[Falanin]

A rigger may also be at the platoon level, and they may provide the drone support and call in outher riggers should it be needed.

A control rig is all of 10k, so I can easily see a rigger as a squad-level position, though due to the specialized training, probably not on each fireteam. They could also provide basic hacker defense (essential for 2070s combat). The true non-combat hacker types will probably stay with the platoon or company HQ element.

As to the armor debate, I usually envision the military wearing the 8/4 camo fatigues on base and in low-threat environments, but milspec armor when out on patrol.

[Doc Chase]

There's one problem I'm seeing with all of this.

Everyone is assuming that the Runners would be up against the U.S. Special Forces of 2072, or whatever. The future equivalent of "the best of the best of the best" of fighting forces out there. OF COURSE most Runner teams will get creamed, it's not even a question. It's like asking if a tricked-out armored car can take a tank - there's no contest. Escape and Evade, maybe, but defeat in anything approaching an even fight? no way.

Thing is, as far as I can tell, the "U.S. Special Forces" or "U.S. Marines" don't exist in 2072. No country has the resources to field forces of this caliper in any significant amount. The Corporations, which are the actual powers in the world, generally don't bother with standing armies - war is expensive.

So, what is actually being compared?

Uh, Tir Ghosts and Sioux Wildcats, or even the Azzie Jaguar Guards / Shorned Ones fit the bill of 2072 SpecOps.

[Runner Smurf]

One of the early SR novels actually talks about this at some point (one of Findley's, but I can't remember which one) - and says that the average SR team is going to get wiped out by regular military. Mainly because the military guys are going to have much better equipment. All the stuff that has high availability codes, they are all going to have. Their software is going to be way better, and their tactical networks are going to be orders of magnitude better.

When it comes to training, I think the average 2070 soldier (from a major power) is also going to be quite comparable to the average runner. They are going to have been through rigorous, formal training programs designed for maximum skill in minimum time. And considering what computer systems could do in 2070, they are going to have a lot of combat experience under their belts long before they ever get shot at in anger. While they may be less specialized than the average runner, they are going to be well trained to do whatever their function is within their unit: the heavy weapons guys are going to know how to use their weapon, etc. In game terms, I'd consider giving soldiers specializations in the use of their specific equipment. And they will have all sorts of the big stuff - missile and rocket launchers out the wazoo.

When it comes to implants, my take is that they are also going to augment the heck out of the soldiers. Reflex boosters of whatever type is most cost effective, and anything that makes the soldier more survivable (bone lacing, platelet factories, etc.). Simple cost/benefit: if you are spending a couple of hundred thousand on training (like the US does now), you are going to spend at least that much to make sure the guy stays alive.

I agree that their weakness is in magical support, with limited numbers of mages lying above the platoon level. However, binding material costs are trivial for a nation state, so I can very easily see that there would be large numbers of spirits tasked to support groups in the field. And in cases where the threat is known to be Awakened, I'd expect that a lot of magical assets would be tasked to support. And I'd suspect that all military mages are well versed in the arts of ritual magic, and metamagics like Quickening and Shielding.

Then again, I can see the military recruiting heavily for mages. The ratio of awakened to mundane in the military is probably a lot higher than in the general population, so they'd probably have more than you'd think. And I can see a lot of mages seeing the appeal - particularly hermetics. Automatic initiatory groups. Nearly unlimited resources for binding/summoning and the like. Lots of foci. Massive magical libraries. Lots of training...

That's my take. I put regular military at a distinct advantage over a standard runner. But it's not an apples to apples comparison: runners are special warfare types, and aren't meant to go up against regular troops - just like modern-day A and B-teams aren't meant to go toe-to-toe with regular forces.

In my game, I'd classify going up against regular military forces up there with great form dragons: if the runners have to fight one, it's because the GM is trying to kill you.

[stevebugge]

I've found in general, at least with SR4 the Combat rules do tend to favor larger numbers over the long run. Military regular Infantry is kind of an extreme example, 5 runners vs. a Batallion with regular equipment isn't even going to be close. Runners do best in a situaion where they are in equal or only a slight numeric disadvantage and they can use their superior skills and equipment to greatest advantage.

Let's substiute Regular Infantry with a large Orc Street Gang. If the runners come up against 6-8 Orc Boyz drinkin' 40's in the Park it's no contest runners win easy. Now suppose those same runner piss off the entire Orc Boyz Nation in the Redmond barrens in the course of doing some legwork to the point where they all turn out and are trying to hunt them down, now maybe 150 Orc Boyz. They lack the training, hardware, support, discipline, well pretty much everything the Army has but they still have numbers. 30 Gangers firing at one Street Sam will do some damage over the long haul, especially if they are juiced up on drugs and not behaving rationally (like not going Holy **** that guy just took down 4 dudes in less than a second I better bounce on outta here).

[augmentin]

@ Infantry command post ("CP"): picture a dump. A 20-30 year old olive drab canvas tent held up with actual wood and tied down with actual twine rope. Now picture 5-10 year old computers and 10-15 year old radios and then fill in the scene with 18-40 year old guys wearing clothing ill-equiped for the heat and that haven't showered with anything but baby wipes or eaten anything but MREs since setting up the CP days or weeks ago.
Now imagine that the site was selected for concealment and defensibility and without consideration of water runoff or wind patterns.
Then liberally add the smell of sweat, CLP, and diesel and you've just about got it.
And that's POGies (Persons Other than Grunts) that get to chill in the CP. The line companies are set in a defensive perimeter around the CP (or on patrol) with their weapon protected in the sleeping bag while they sleep under a poncho.

In 2072 I'd imagine it's just about the same except instead of the radio farms, I'd imagine small commlinks with satellite uplinks and drone retrans units and several magical lodges.

Someone brought up a good point: the poor tend to be disproportionately represented in the infantry. With so many poor to chose from in 2072, I'd imagine the state could pay them less and provided fewer benefits and actually field a fairly large army even with limited tax revenues. By concentrating drone and magical support at the battalion CP it could be pretty cost effective to field a dystopian future infantry.

[Doc Chase]

@ Infantry command post ("CP"): picture a dump. A 20-30 year old olive drab canvas tent held up with actual wood and tied down with actual twine rope. Now picture 5-10 year old computers and 10-15 year old radios and then fill in the scene with 18-40 year old guys wearing clothing ill-equiped for the heat and that haven't showered with anything but baby wipes or eaten anything but MREs since setting up the CP days or weeks ago.
Now imagine that the site was selected for concealment and defensibility and without consideration of water runoff or wind patterns.
Then liberally add the smell of sweat, CLP, and diesel and you've just about got it.

Don't forget the rattle of the generator that keeps going down because Signals keeps stealing the CP's jerry cans to keep their own tent running. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[TBRMInsanity]

In short: I am fairly confident that SR special Forces could wipe the floor with most Runner teams.

Screw the spec ops, regular grunts are better trained and equipped then the average SR team. Only the most elite teams have a chance in hell against standard grunts (especially if the SR team doesn't have the jump on them). You have to remember that most military training is drills that hammer into the soldier's head, what to do instinctually when certain situations occur. Most SR are petty thugs with little to no background training, and are highly specialized to move against security forces (as tough as they are). The average SR will have to think out what to do in a heavy fire fight, rather then the grunt that is just doing all the right things at the right times.

As D2F also pointed out the standard load out of an average military grunt is equivalent to one of the best load outs you will see in an advanced SR team, so the military will always have more (and bigger) guns then any SR team.

[stevebugge]

Don't forget the rattle of the generator that keeps going down because Signals keeps stealing the CP's jerry cans to keep their own tent running. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Isn't that when they send the E-1's to the Commisary for the Canned Steam to get the boiler going again?

Oh and while you're there get some headlight fluid for the Jeep and a stack of grid squares. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[StealthSigma]

I've found in general, at least with SR4 the Combat rules do tend to favor larger numbers over the long run. Military regular Infantry is kind of an extreme example, 5 runners vs. a Batallion with regular equipment isn't even going to be close. Runners do best in a situaion where they are in equal or only a slight numeric disadvantage and they can use their superior skills and equipment to greatest advantage.

Let's substiute Regular Infantry with a large Orc Street Gang. If the runners come up against 6-8 Orc Boyz drinkin' 40's in the Park it's no contest runners win easy. Now suppose those same runner piss off the entire Orc Boyz Nation in the Redmond barrens in the course of doing some legwork to the point where they all turn out and are trying to hunt them down, now maybe 150 Orc Boyz. They lack the training, hardware, support, discipline, well pretty much everything the Army has but they still have numbers. 30 Gangers firing at one Street Sam will do some damage over the long haul, especially if they are juiced up on drugs and not behaving rationally (like not going Holy **** that guy just took down 4 dudes in less than a second I better bounce on outta here).

30 gangers shooting at a single sammy?

By the time the 15th to 20th guy starts shooting at the same sammy, his dodge pool has depleted to nothing. He'll be relying on his soak pool for 10 to 15 guys. At that point, the sammy would probably need at least 15-18 dice in his soak pool to avoid being badly injured or killed.

[Doc Chase]

Isn't that when they send the E-1's to the Commisary for the Canned Steam to get the boiler going again?

Oh and while you're there get some headlight fluid for the Jeep and a stack of grid squares. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Never, ever tell an E-1 to go find that and a coil of glow wire and not to come back until he finds it.

He'll go AWOL for the week and it'll be your fault. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotate.gif)

[Ryu]

I can't see shadowrunners do anything but guerilla warfare. If your enemy can't see you, you are less likely to get shot/die. Be mobile, use what your enemy can't. I would also think that most shadowrunner teams would have someone in them with military experience/tactics. I would actually surmise that most shadowrun teams would be at least equal to an elite seal squad or higher.

They have no business in not using "special" tactics. My money against "gun/armor/shooting-range" armies is on the runners.

Corp militaries will have mostly high-tech units. National militaries would have to shrink in size for that, as even today´s budgets are crippling for some of the nations who have them. Given the need of offering a perspective for the downtrodden, I´m not sure that will happen.

[D2F]

They have no business in not using "special" tactics. My money against "gun/armor/shooting-range" armies is on the runners.

Corp militaries will have mostly high-tech units. National militaries would have to shrink in size for that, as even today´s budgets are crippling for some of the nations who have them. Given the need of offering a perspective for the downtrodden, I´m not sure that will happen.

Are you familiar with the Tir Ghosts? Or the Sioux Wildcats?