[X] My Assistant

[kzt]

We are not talking if you can hit a stationary target in a non threatening environment. Most of us can do ok in that situation. The dice pools are to reflect an adrenaline fear filled environment where your opponent is shooting back and mostly obscured. Accuracy drops tremendously in these situations and this is where the dice pools count.

The description I've heard from journalists embedded with US troops is that it's easy in combat to tell US troops apart from the terrorists and insurgents by sound. The people firing semi-auto are US troops, the guys firing on auto are not.

[toturi]

The description I've heard from journalists embedded with US troops is that it's easy in combat to tell US troops apart from the terrorists and insurgents by sound. The people firing semi-auto are US troops, the guys firing on auto are not.

So the SAW gunners are not US troops, not that I am saying that you cannot fire a single rounds with a SAW.

[LivingOxymoron]

That is entirely possible and sounds well in keeping with the way the Air Force would run things and the Marines would emulate.

Actually, my experience with the Predators pre-dates them being armed at all.

[LivingOxymoron]

The description I've heard from journalists embedded with US troops is that it's easy in combat to tell US troops apart from the terrorists and insurgents by sound. The people firing semi-auto are US troops, the guys firing on auto are not.

That mostly has to do with the fact that the M-16/M-4 doesn't even have a full auto capability at all, and Burst Fire is pretty much useless. Most western military doctrine has concluded that semi-auto is superior with proper training, and that full-auto is only useful with a weapon that can hold a large amount of rounds for defensive and suppressive fire.

[LivingOxymoron]

See, this is how I see it too... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

You really need to review the Skill descriptors to get a true feel for what someone is capable of doing... anyone described as a Professional should/will have a Skill minimum of 3 (with possible specialties) in their primary skills... If they do not have a 3 in their primary skills, then they are not professionals, at least in my opinion, and the opinion of the Developers as well apparently...

Keep the Faith

In fact, in the Skill Chapter itself bears this out(SR4A pg. 119)

Rating 2:
Firearms example: Trainee in Police Academy or Military Boot Camp
(Also probably the average skill level of most POGs in all services but the Marines)

Rating 3:
Firearms example: Regular Beat Cop or Military Grunt

Rating 4:
Firearms example: Riot Control Cop, combat veteran, superior regular force (Airborne, Marines)

Also, figure that one in 4 of the Rating 3 guys probably has a specialization in their T/O weapon (usually Assault Rifle).

[Critias]

Only problem is the typical soldier/grunt is a poor shot. Most have 4 -6 months of combat training of which include heavy weapons, firearms, close combat, throwing, and other skills such as tactics. The majority of the training is learning how to obey orders. I have been to the range with many of them and the skills definitely fall into the 1-2 category. Just enough familiarity to handle and shoot the weapon. Marksmen are about 4, and snipers in the 5-6 range. You don't need super high dicepools to be effective and considering the actual combat range tends to be less than 100 meters it puts the high dice pools as unrealistic. I hardly consider most soldiers professionals in the firearm category. Most are 0-4 years with limited firearms experience to once a month on the range. Units are determined more by unit cohesion and tactics over high skills. This is what should be reflected is less the dice pools and more how the unit operates in the tactical sense (smoke, suppressive fire, outflanking).

We are not talking if you can hit a stationary target in a non threatening environment. Most of us can do ok in that situation. The dice pools are to reflect an adrenaline fear filled environment where your opponent is shooting back and mostly obscured. Accuracy drops tremendously in these situations and this is where the dice pools count.

Your anecdotal evidence is...well...anecdotal.

The books give us descriptors of what skill levels apply to "average" characters, and it's pretty rock-solid that a 3 is a sturdy example for a military grunt's ability to fire his issued weapon.

I'd also disagree with your initial post, in that you're giving every single grunt mil-spec armor. Mil-spec armor has, traditionally, required it be tailor made to fit whoever's going to wear it (on top of being expensive as all get out). You don't get "tailor made" of much of anything in the service.

[kzt]

I'd also disagree with your initial post, in that you're giving every single grunt mil-spec armor. Mil-spec armor has, traditionally, required it be tailor made to fit whoever's going to wear it (on top of being expensive as all get out). You don't get "tailor made" of much of anything in the service.

What you have is a room full of bins of parts that the battalion armorer uses to assemble a set of armor to fit a given troop. "Hmm, he needs a 37cm left forearm and a 38 cm right forearm. Bins 47a and 65c." Works just like that warehouse where they issue you clothing.

And it's been obvious for years that the skill table is absurdly stupid, because the total dice pool is what matters in SR. If you have 8 dice it doesn't matter how you get them.

[LivingOxymoron]

What you have is a room full of bins of parts that the battalion armorer uses to assemble a set of armor to fit a given troop. "Hmm, he needs a 37cm left forearm and a 38 cm right forearm. Bins 47a and 65c." Works just like that warehouse where they issue you clothing.

And it's been obvious for years that the skill table is absurdly stupid, because the total dice pool is what matters in SR. If you have 8 dice it doesn't matter how you get them.

Arsenal pg.50

Adjusting military-grade armor to another person than the one it was made for is very difficult. Even with the technical knowledge and the right tools, this is a time-consuming task that can only be performed to adjust the armor to a new person with roughly the same physical traits as the original user (the details are up to the gamemaster’s discretion).

Based on the description, it seems like the suits are tailor made to a specific individual and are not modular. Remember, its a fully integrated soft and hard suit that gains special benefits beyond just the armor rating based on the fact that it fits so well and is tailored to a specific person's ergonomics as well as their basic measurements.

In all honesty, its like the Marine Dress Blues. Sure, you buy them off the rack in certain standard sizes, but they're tailored to be form-fitted. Once you go through that initial tailoring, its very hard to have them tailored to a different person even if they have the same off the rack size as you. Hell, I know lifers who've had to get a new set of blues in their later years because they couldn't tailor them anymore. And this is just a cloth uniform. When you integrate hard armor into the mix, it probably gets really complicated.

[Critias]

What you have is a room full of bins of parts that the battalion armorer uses to assemble a set of armor to fit a given troop. "Hmm, he needs a 37cm left forearm and a 38 cm right forearm. Bins 47a and 65c." Works just like that warehouse where they issue you clothing.

Whether that method could bypass the custom-tailored requirements or not (which it's hard to say, since the book itself even says "leave it up to the GM"), and whether it would be cost effective and logistically easy enough to do so...sorry, but I still just don't see the military shelling out 31,500 for the armor alone on every single grunt. In a perfect world, where the grunts made the decisions, sure, maybe they'd all have 12/10 armor ratings, built in ruthenium coating, and strength and mobility enhancements.

As it is, in the cost-effective Shadowrun future, I picture your average, everyday, soldier in a 1,300 nuyen camoflauge suit + helmet, still getting 9/8 protection, sorry.

And it's been obvious for years that the skill table is absurdly stupid, because the total dice pool is what matters in SR. If you have 8 dice it doesn't matter how you get them.

Whether you like the skill table or not, it's what we've got. Someone arguing that grunts should have a 1-2 because the guys he shoots with aren't any good is hardly grounds for throwing the table out the window and agreeing that your average infantryman can't hit the broad side of the barn.

[IKerensky]

Arsenal Pg.50 talk specifically about adjusting a Military Armor you manage to get your hand on to another people than the one that got it at start.

IMDNSHO, it doesnt cover the situation where you have access to a lot of Military Grade Armor and just have to adjust it/them to the current grunt, you dont lack of parts to switch/adjust with.

And remember that they are MILITARY GRADE armors, I simply cannot imagine armors made for military not being somewhat standardised in production.

[IKerensky]

Whether that method could bypass the custom-tailored requirements or not (which it's hard to say, since the book itself even says "leave it up to the GM"), and whether it would be cost effective and logistically easy enough to do so...sorry, but I still just don't see the military shelling out 31,500 for the armor alone on every single grunt. In a perfect world, where the grunts made the decisions, sure, maybe they'd all have 12/10 armor ratings, built in ruthenium coating, and strength and mobility enhancements.

And you are sorely wrong, Grunt equipement are very costly, that is just puny compared to a vehicule but it is significant.

http://www.seattlepi.com/national/334060_soldier03.html

"Soldier's gear costs $17,500 and is rising
Price expected to reach $60,000 in next decade"

If a Grunt gear cost 60.000$ by 2017, I really see no problem with equiping them of 30.000 ny armors by 2070.

[Critias]

*shrugs* Suit yourself, I guess. Put every single soldier in $30k worth of armor (while simultaneously only training them to a 1-2 in Automatics), and have yourself a blast. That gear's more Halo than Shadowrun, to me, though, and I know what basic armor soldiers will be wearing in my games.

[IKerensky]

You're entitled to equip the military as you wich. But you were on the opinion that it was illogical for them to spent lots of money to equip basic grunt, I just pointed out a reality reference that this isn't the case.

And MY grunts wont have level 1-2 in automatic, they will be level 3, with a smartlinked weapon, a speciality with their service weapon and a tacnet centralised to the company level with one dedicated hacker on overwatch and a black ICE in patrol. Every man Commlink will be connected to the Platoon leader one that will be connected directly to the company level and thus very secured (above 6 rating). And if course military armor, a few drones for overwatch and ammo supply and possibly one spirit in Overwatch by platoon (or Astral sensing ligthstick and a few Astral Smoke grenade, buying time to call for Combatmages to send help).

[Rand]

Omenowl: I think that the current skill ratings bear out. When you combine the average attribute (3) with the average professional skill rating (3) you get a 6 die pool. Now, when you start introducing negative die mods - and just about every single combat scenario will have them - that die pool really starts to slip away. (Which means that Blind Fire (-6) is actually blind fire...) Afterwards you have, maybe, a 50/50 chance of hitting - which is generally much better than in RL. The vast majority of shots miss in RL, not so in SR (which I have described as "deadlier than RL). Of course, shadowrunners are jacked-up uber-steroid combat monsters with die pools in the 9-12 range (average), or even 13-15 (upper end). Even Blind-Fire isn't much of a problem with those levels.

IKerensky: I have found that if you want something to be able torespond wuick enough to make a difference in SR they have to be able to get there in 1-2 combat rounds (or sooner). Since I have been playing SR4 I have never.....NEVER had a combat last more than 2 rounds. With the way it works, with some people getting 3 actions in a single round, unless you are throwing high numbers of opponents (which becomes too overwhelming after a while) combats do not last long enough for "reserve" forces to come into play, only set up another fight a little while later.

[MortVent]

Most military troops are going to fall into two groups:

Low retention and high retention personel

They are going to want to balance long term costs with retention : so low retention troops don't get the personalized armor and implants (they want to cut costs on them as much as possible), but the ones that are lifers may very well get the personalized gear (and it's mostly going to be for advanced troops and special forces, not the GI troops)


Most militaries are looking into cutting costs on troops and getting more for the buck vs spending more on them and not getting much back.

I see the military armor being more for the advanced units vs the average units. Rather than equip the standard troops in it you put the assualt units in it. (think more like specialists vs the generalists. Rangers would get it, but the infantry gets armor jackets and helmets)

[Rand]

The problem with the retention / non-retention idea is that those 2 types reside within the same unit, and you do not give one guy (re-upper) this really cool stuff while giving the guy next to him (non re-upper) 8-10 generational hand-me-downs. That wouldn't go over well. ("But sarge! I need the new Dragon Armor too!")

The units that need the more expensive, specialized gear are the one that get it. The ones that don't, well it doesn't matter how many of them will be re-upping, they still are getting their basic issue. In most cases, even if they were able to get better gear on their own, they aren't allowed to because it isn't part of their official uniform. So, FFBA is ok, so long as it cannot be seen normally, but buying yourself the Full-Body Armor while the rest of your platoon has the regular Cammies is a no-no. At least, you couldn't wear it when you wanted, on liberty sure, but not as a part of any unit operations.

As for augmenting the basic trooper: HELL NO! It isn't just the cost of the implant, but the operation*, any complications that may arrise, plus the fact what do they do with them when the guy gets out? Rip it out of them? If I had to turn back in my M16A2, I am sure they would want their Wired Reflexes-1 back!

*Primarily because you would have to have a huge staff of medical professionals on hand to just do the augmentation, as well as dealing with any complications. Imagine several hospitals full of personnel to just handle the augmentations. Very expensive. Even outsourcing would be too much.

[D2F]

Only problem is the typical soldier/grunt is a poor shot. Most have 4 -6 months of combat training of which include heavy weapons, firearms, close combat, throwing, and other skills such as tactics. The majority of the training is learning how to obey orders. I have been to the range with many of them and the skills definitely fall into the 1-2 category. Just enough familiarity to handle and shoot the weapon. Marksmen are about 4, and snipers in the 5-6 range. You don't need super high dicepools to be effective and considering the actual combat range tends to be less than 100 meters it puts the high dice pools as unrealistic. I hardly consider most soldiers professionals in the firearm category. Most are 0-4 years with limited firearms experience to once a month on the range. Units are determined more by unit cohesion and tactics over high skills. This is what should be reflected is less the dice pools and more how the unit operates in the tactical sense (smoke, suppressive fire, outflanking).

We are not talking if you can hit a stationary target in a non threatening environment. Most of us can do ok in that situation. The dice pools are to reflect an adrenaline fear filled environment where your opponent is shooting back and mostly obscured. Accuracy drops tremendously in these situations and this is where the dice pools count.

I call your opinion and raise it by a quote from the BBB (Yeah, I know, string raises are illegal. Sue me!):

Rating 3 Professional
Competent at general skilled tasks. “Average” skill level for starting characters and NPCs.
[...]
Firearms Example: Regular beat cop or military grunt.
[...]
Rating 4 Veteran
Very good at what you do; can handle difficult tasks with ease.
[...]
Firearms Example: Riot control cop, combat veteran, superior regular force
(Marines, Airborne)
[...]
Rating 5 Expert
Star status: your expertise gives you a reputation.
[...]
Firearms Example: SWAT team, elite military (Rangers, Special Forces).
[...]
Rating 6 Elite
The “best of the rest.” Maximum skill level for “rank-and-file” unnamed
NPCs and starting characters.
[...]
Firearms Example: Individual superstars amongst elite forces.

I don't think there is really any room for argument here.

[Yerameyahu]

Snrk. D2F, that makes you the 4th person to point that out. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[IKerensky]

Can I point it out too, please, pleaaaaasse ??? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

NO. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/indifferent.gif)

[D2F]

Snrk. D2F, that makes you the 4th person to point that out. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Yeah, I reply in the order I read posts. It's a bad habit, I know, but old dogs don't learn new tricks easy.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

As for augmenting the basic trooper: HELL NO! It isn't just the cost of the implant, but the operation*, any complications that may arrise, plus the fact what do they do with them when the guy gets out? Rip it out of them? If I had to turn back in my M16A2, I am sure they would want their Wired Reflexes-1 back!

*Primarily because you would have to have a huge staff of medical professionals on hand to just do the augmentation, as well as dealing with any complications. Imagine several hospitals full of personnel to just handle the augmentations. Very expensive. Even outsourcing would be too much.

Man. I spend a whole day wihtout posting and suddenly this thread raises by a 100 posts? Yo have A LOT of free time. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Anyway, this was discussed before in one of the threads discussing ware for former military and stuff. Theoretically, the military could deactivate the Wired Reflexes after you leave service. Of course, it doesn't mean you couldn't go to a street doc and get it back on line, but for the who will spend the rest of his life in legality and possibly on reserve It would be fine to keep the WR since if he is called they can activate it back.
Anyway, on the whole drone-army thing. I do believe that we will have an army most filled with drones in the near-future UNTIL jamming/disabling/disrupting communication technologies keep up to encryption technology and then people will have to add more meat to the army again, possibly using a mixed group.

[Doc Chase]

What cyberware would be offered? I don't think there's really any point to having smartlinks or cybereyes installed when you can have that functionality in a pair of goggles that come with their helmet. Any outpatient installation would be done to repair combat damage - get an eye shot out, they'll replace them with a cybered pair or regrow new ones. The 2070 equivalent of TRICARE is going to pay about the same amount, and they'll likely have the cybereyes on hand.

Get your eyes fried on Wednesday, lay up Thursday in Medical while they go over your options, get the eyes replaced Friday, by Monday muster you're ready to report for duty. As long as it's not heavily invasive like Wired Reflexes or dermal plating, it can be done on the cheap in an afternoon.

[Warlordtheft]

In older editions of SR, cyber was more expensive and therefore the average trooper had very little if any. Mostly things like Eyes, smartgun links and the like. I think on thing you'll see is a lot of variation based on role.

Special forces (Delta, Seals, Ares Firewatch): These guys are the equivalent of a top notch shadowrunner. Probably between 500 BP and 600 BP. Some guys may be higher, like 700 to 800. Cyber and bio is all alpha or better with some delta grade stuff. Magic is a 6 or higher, with multiple initiate levels, and spirits and Foci up the yin/yang and of high (5+) rating. Matrix support is going to be top of the line, so firewalls and other programs are going to be 8+. Drone/logistics support will be what ever is needed for the mission. Weapons will be milspec but fitted to the mission, armor will vary depending on mission. The sponsor (corp/government/NGO etc) probably has a couple of million invested in each trooper. Combat skills are 5+.

Elite forces (Marines, Rangers, Airborne): These guys are the equivalent of an average shadowrunner. Probably between 450 BP and 500 BP. Some guys may be higher, like 550 to 600.
Cyber and bio is available with most getting basic and alpha grade. Magic is a 4 to 7, with a few initiate levels, spirits and foci are typically at rating 3 or 4, a Matrix support is still going to be top of the line as well, so firewalls and other programs are going to be 8+. Drone/logistics support will be at the platoon level and will be around 1 drone rigger and 1 comm specialist (hacker). Weapons will be milspec, but standard and armor will be military grade but will vary depending on each soldiers role. The sponsor (corp/government/NGO etc) probably has almost 1 million invested in each trooper. Combat skills are 4 to 6.

Regular forces (US Infantry): These guys are slightly less than the equivalent of a beginner shadowrunner. Probably between 350 BP and 400 BP. Some guys may be higher, like 401 to 500. Cyber and bio is limited, all basic available with most getting basic and alpha grade. Magic is a 3 to 5, with no or one initiate level, spirits and foci are typically at rating 2 or 3, a Matrix support is going to be top of the line as well, so firewalls and other programs are going to be 8+. Drone/logistics support will be at the company level and will be around 4 drone riggers. A comm specialist (hacker) will be available for each platoon. Weapons will be milspec, but standard and armor will be light military grade or security armor. The sponsor (corp/government/NGO etc) probably has no more than $500,000 invested in each trooper. Combat skills are 3 to 4.

Logistics troops: These guys are well below the equivalent of a beginning shadowrunner. Probably between 300 BP and 400 BP. Some guys may be higher, like 401 to 500--but are extremely rare. Cyber and bio is limited and not typical. Magic is not assigned, spirits may be present with a rating 2 to 4, Matrix support is going to be top of the line as well, so firewalls and other programs are going to be 8+. Drone/logistics support will be there, but is mostly noncombatant. A comm specialist (hacker) will not be available unless needed. Weapons will be carbines and other small arms. Armor will be a Jacket and helmet. The sponsor (corp/government/NGO etc) probably has no more than $100,000 invested in each trooper. Combat skills are 2 to 4.

[stevebugge]

I think that Grunts in a Conscript Army probably would have skills mostly in the 2 range, which would refelct a selection process more along the lines of You are 16 or older, can see and hear adequately, and able to walk, OK here's your AK-97 and two magazines, go over there and get a little range time before we ship out. In 2070 a lot of nations probably do use this type of grunt to fill out their armies, which may include a lot of Aztlan's Yucatan Force. But for professional Volunteer Armies (UCAS, CAS) or Mandatory Service Armies where it's taken seriously as a patriotic duty (IDF) Skills of 3 for anyone who has completed training should be the norm, and a few 4's for longer serving veterans.