[X] My Assistant

[Sengir]

However at the same time it also invites all of those parties to try to do exactly those sorts of things in a way that cannot be traced back to them.

That's why the law is secret, the CC does not want people to think about the possiblity (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)


And developing things like ASAT missiles or crash worms tends to leave traces...those traces might only be found until after the strike, but they WILL be found and the megas WILL be extremely unhappy at what you did.

[IKerensky]

And dont forget one thing about Magic User in the Army : they are part of an organisation that could help them Initiate/progress. It make sense that all the incorporated magicians are trained in a specific tradition and join special organisation (especially if drafted young).

[simplexio]

Personally, i think that you are talking totally wrong thing here. it isn't skill which is important, it's overall performance. In my time in Finnish army, after i did manage to shoot at least X points in test (can't remember test name or score) no one asked me to go shooting. There was few guys who had to go range even after 6 months in service with new guys to shoot.

So in Conscription army i would say that there actually quite many people who don't actually have any skill, they just have enough talent to task and technical helpers. So in game terms, how much you need to have dice so that you can hit man sized target in 150 meters, which does not move and you have 3 seconds time to shoot ? There is your base level for all logistic people, artillery and drivers ( some may have much more, but everyone has at least some level performance)

[Dumori]

I agreee that straight off boot camp would be a 1-2 but a grunt with almost any combat experience I see as a 3. So unless they are as green as grass they are a 3.

[toturi]

Personally, i think that you are talking totally wrong thing here. it isn't skill which is important, it's overall performance. In my time in Finnish army, after i did manage to shoot at least X points in test (can't remember test name or score) no one asked me to go shooting. There was few guys who had to go range even after 6 months in service with new guys to shoot.

So in Conscription army i would say that there actually quite many people who don't actually have any skill, they just have enough talent to task and technical helpers. So in game terms, how much you need to have dice so that you can hit man sized target in 150 meters, which does not move and you have 3 seconds time to shoot ? There is your base level for all logistic people, artillery and drivers ( some may have much more, but everyone has at least some level performance)

Overall performance in SR is a combination of both skill and attribute. So someone who lacks natural coordination, or some other facet of Agility, can still be trained to a level that enables him to qualify and pass his shooting test, but this low Agility guy needs higher skill to compensate.

Remember that someone with no skill actually defaults. In game terms, the lowest difficulty threshold is 1. To get 1 on average, you need about 3 dice. Since nobody is shooting at you, I would say that 4 dice is sufficient to trade for 1 success.

From my time in the Singapore army (which is mostly a conscript/mandatory service force), I would say that the man-sized target at 300m (ours is at 300m), is there to give freebie points to the shooter. And if you can miss that, god help you on the other trickier targets; when you have run a hundred meters, sweat is getting into your eye, the hot tropical sun has baked the ground to oven heat, and now there are more than 1 fucking moving targets that you to bring down in a limited time. And then there are the torso and head shot targets, albeit at closer range. All that is in the day. There's more fun and games at night (which I do not enjoy since I have nightblindness; -6 to dice pool means I miss most of my shots unless I Edge (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) ).

[Cang]

On the note of nations not wanting to drop money on its grunts, i was given $15k to server 6 years in the Air National Guard. Yup, no real combat going on here in Missouri. I would think that they would spend something like that on a soldier to enhance him. I figure they can cyber up grunts with some removable and traceable wares and make then sign long standing contracts to get their moneys worth. This is a time where 16 and 18 hour work days are the norm. Making someone sign up for 6 to 10 years is not that big a deal. Not to mention the huge pool of poor the military can pick up and the amount of skill wires they can pump in a soldier for cheap. I think a grunt in the Army would be a well rounded 400 point character after all their training and some experience.

[Minchandre]

This wikianswer estimates that the US spends well over $400k for every infantryman they train.

[Apathy]

In response to the general "What would the makeup of the Army look like, re-posting from an older thread:

[ Spoiler ]

Ultimately for any force, form follows function. A well-funded CAS military which is primarily geared toward border defense and major conflicts in urban/suburban environments against large trained Atzlan and American Indian militaries will look very different than an army that is primarily focused on insurgency suppression. Economic and cultural factors would also weigh heavily. My take on things is below:

UCAS: Strong economy, relatively stable relationships with neighbors, minimal civilian unrest. The military would have a relatively small core of professional soldiers and augment heavily with Reserve/Nat'l Guard forces. Heavy use of drones and matrix as force multipliers. National Guard might encourage installation of skillwires sets, as it can increase combat effectiveness of troops despite minimal training, and because the skills can be replaced with practical corporate skills when they're released back into the civilian population. Military would primarily use small mobile strike teams for offensive force projection (hit squads, sabotage, etc). Due to scarcity of mages, magical resources would be consolidated at Battalion/Brigade level and attached to individual units on a mission-by-mission basis.

CAS: Strong economy, heavily-contested southern border, minimal civilian unrest. Would have a larger standing army. Would also use drones and matrix as force multipliers, and would have a greater emphasis than UCAS on heavy armor, artillery and air superiority to counter Atzlaners. Due to scarcity of mages, magical resources would be consolidated at Battalion/Brigade level and attached to individual units on a mission-by-mission basis.

NAN: Growning economy, minor civil unrest related to second-rate status of large [non-indian] percentage of population. Perception of threats from larger nations on all sides. Cultural support for magic users, who are seen as the 'edge' that NAN has had against CAS/UCAS. Mages would be more numerous and integrated at company level with regular forces.

Atzlan: Stagnant economy, significant and protracted internal unrest as well as threats from the more technically savy and economically healthy CAS and the magically powerful Amazonia. Authoritarian centralized government. Atzlan military is as much about quelling threats from within as it is about sparring with neighboring countries. As a result, they'll have a large standing army, and probably a mandatory service obligation for all [poor] citizens. Many boots on the ground allows them to keep their own country in check and provides social conditioning/brainwashing of most of the population. The government would stay in fear of military coup, and would therefore maintain tight centralized control of special assets like magical firepower, matrix support, and drones. Military would have parallel ranks of attached 'advisors' down to the company level to look for insufficient patriotism/loyalty. Tactics would not be closer to soviet massed assaults than Iranian human wave charges, but would still have less efficient use of force multipliers than any of their northern neighbors.

Amazonia: Stagnant economy, independant anti-establishment population. Militant new age hippie anarchists. Heavily magical with distrust of technology. Defense would be highly decentralized - more like groups of individual warlords than a unified fighting force. Heavy use of magic and general distrust of tech which minimizes matrix or drone use. Special assets are released down to the platoon level, and there would be inconsistencies in setup and resources of battalions from one region to the next. All units are supplied with environmental liasons to minimize interference with- and cooperation maximize cooperation from local inhabitants.

[PBTHHHHT]

All that is in the day. There's more fun and games at night (which I do not enjoy since I have nightblindness; -6 to dice pool means I miss most of my shots unless I Edge (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) ).

Well, at least you're human so you can spend that extra edge point. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Bira]

To answer the original question, a starting Shadowrunner team seems to be roughly on par with a special forces unit in terms of skill, if you compare some of the archetypes with the actual special forces in the NPC chapters. Even in the Sixth world, your standard grunt is likely to be an unaugmented dude equipped with gear that doesn't even exceed the availability limits for starting characters, so a team of runners will likely have a big advantage against them.

An actual team of Red Samurai or Ghosts is supposed to be a big challenge to a runner team. A group of normal infantry is likely to be only a little harder than the corpsec guards or standard cops presented in the corebook.

[D2F]

To answer the original question, a starting Shadowrunner team seems to be roughly on par with a special forces unit in terms of skill, if you compare some of the archetypes with the actual special forces in the NPC chapters. Even in the Sixth world, your standard grunt is likely to be an unaugmented dude equipped with gear that doesn't even exceed the availability limits for starting characters, so a team of runners will likely have a big advantage against them.

An actual team of Red Samurai or Ghosts is supposed to be a big challenge to a runner team. A group of normal infantry is likely to be only a little harder than the corpsec guards or standard cops presented in the corebook.

The Special Forces you mentioned are SIGNIFICANTLY better statted and geared than your average Shadowrunner. You contradict your very own statement.

[Bira]

I don't actually see much difference between the stats of a Red Samurai member (who's supposed to be one of the toughest special forces around) and the sample Street Samurai. The latter even has an extra die for shooting with his weapon, I think. The armor for the Samurai and Ghosts is certainly better than what a starting runner can scrounge up, and the Ghosts may be a couple dice ahead of a starting street sam, but that's OK. That's why I said "roughly".

The point is, a normal military grunt will be way behind both of them in terms of "raw power". He'll probably be more or less comparable to the Lone Star Cop statted one page before the Red Samurai. Add Automatics, jiggle the gear a bit, and there you go. A starting runner team will beat even a full squad of these guys, assuming they're built for combat at all. If your PCs are a bunch of accountants, though, or a small orichalchum-making operation, then, well, they shouldn't even get to meet actual soldiers as an opposing force.

[Tzeentch]

-- So is the (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 400K soldier the military variant of the pink mohawk (green mohawk)? I still can't believe people are using current US military expenditures as being relevant though (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

-- I liked Apathy's breakdown. Good starting point.

[Yerameyahu]

I keep hearing 'average shadowrunners' or 'average team', but we addressed this earlier in the thread: the average runner team isn't 100% combat. Maybe 75%, maybe less? My impression was that we were comparing something like a 'shadowrunner combat team' against military squads, but I dunno. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Doc Chase]

A 400bp troll versus your average combat unit.

Give him some security armor and he's set! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Minchandre]

-- So is the (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 400K soldier the military variant of the pink mohawk (green mohawk)? I still can't believe people are using current US military expenditures as being relevant though (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

It was $400k. Who knows what inflation and exchange rates will do to that in the intervening 60 years. But the point is that training people is expensive, and that the military will probably be willing to shell out for good weapons, 'ware, and drone support because of the cost of each naked soldier (at least, developed nations will).

[toturi]

Well, at least you're human so you can spend that extra edge point. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Well, I must have only Edge 2 since I missed all but 2 of my night shots except the silhouettes where they backlight the targets brightly. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Voran]

I think it depends on several factors:

1)Who has the advantage of setting/environment. Not all military types are setup for close quarters combat or urban combat. Not all runners are adept in areas OUTSIDE urban environments.

2)Skill levels. General riflemen? SAS operatives? Newbie Runners? Hardened Street Vets?

3)Related to 2, cohesion and previous activity experience with existing group. In either case, slapping together a group of guys that have never worked with each other will have different challenges than groups that have experience with each other.

4)Goal of encounter. What constitutes victory? Military approaches tend to have more straightforward goals and intentions, Shadowrunners ops can have waaay different parameters.

5)What else do they bring? Magic has been noted, but also equipment. Runners tend to be ....varied...in their gear, you've got the pistols dude, the akimbo assault rifle dude, the ninja the hand to hand warrior, etc.